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I gotta say, I really dont like this list.

First, I dont think spore mines work as you intend. What mission states that you may not deploy right next to the spore mines (1 inch minimum), besides DoW where they are just gonna walk on anyway? Spore mines, unless there is a rule I am missing, cant hurt any vehicle, and dont restrict deployment with only 3 small areas of interdiction, thus have no place in a competitive list? 180 (or 165 in your fixed list) of fail.

As for venomthropes, you realize that you are paying 220 points to give only the gaunts a 5+ cover save right? Everything else in the list gets cover from the gaunts in front. 220 points = 30 adrenal gargs, who still will give cover, but give 4+ cover, are MUCH faster, can kill almost any unit in the game, and can glance vehicle rears.

As for adrenal on the stealers, they are not useful pretty much ever. Stealers dont hunt av14. If you need stealers to hunt drednaught spam armies, then the rest of your force is very bad for this role. Switch to toxin and enjoy being much better in combat, or keep em naked and get 4 more stealers for the same cost.

The horms are OK, but you are better off with gargoyles for the same mission role. Adrenal gargs, are cheaper, still killy, faster with a guarenteed 12 inch move, have a shooting attack, and blinding poison is scary effective--much more than I think most people realize.

The warriors are another mismatch. They dont add much of anything that I can tell, and it seems you are either gonna use them for synapse or rear objective holders. For the points you are paying, you can get a tervigon+min gant unit. Better CC, still synapse, many more wounds, ability to make more scoring units, immune to ID from s8+, FNP, ect ect.

And then there is the tyrant, again hampered by mismatched upgrades. Tyrants with guard are awesome. The HVC, however, is VERY MUCH garbage. Trust me, in order to put pressure on the enemy, you WILL need to run the tyrant every turn. Thus, your shooting weapons, the HVC and the Flamer, can not be used thanks to the run. If you want shooting, the only viable tyrant mounts 2 devourers to kill off low AV vehicles with a threat range of 24 inches. Also, old adversary is an amazing ability... remember you will be running to keep the tyrant a threat, thus your other units WILL be in range of the 6 inch ability. Also, dont forget the tyrant himself benefits from the rerolls from preferred enemy, thus with the lash whip and bone sword, and high WS, you have a great chance at hitting with all 5 of his attacks.

A recommended change to make this list a bit more competetive would be the following.

2 HT with hive commander, lash/sword, old adversary, adrenal glands, 1 tyrant guard each.
2x12 termagant
2x tervigon with adrenal, toxin, cclaws, catalyst
2x12 toxin stealers
3x3 hive guard

This lets you outflank with 2 tervigon as needed, and if hive commander is ruled to stack will give +2 to reserve, meaning your stealers and tervigons can all outflank in on turn 2 if needed. 24 gants allow you form 2 screens to give cover saves, and the tervigons can always make more for cover if needed. The 4 mcs have a decent shot at killing land raiders in assault if needed, and should murder dreads. 9 hive guard put you in the game if you play eldar--without them turn 5 waveserpant/fireprisim tank shocks will auto win against nids... even with 9 hive guard its gonna be tough.

Dev:

So, basically, you don't get the concept? The point is to avoid the losing proposition of trying to outshoot the enemy with Tyranids. What you have proposed is just another variation on a "I hope I get lucky!" strategy that seems to be failing Shep and Mahu. If it's not working for them, them other avenues should be explored. So far I've proposed a concept of mass, a concept of speed, and a concept of containment.

Regarding the containment concept, if the opposing player decides to start entirely in reserves, then the containment has been partially successful and the Tyranids can mass on the board in preparation for either picking off units entering from reserves, or flooding them when they do. Contrary to your assumption, Spore Mines can affect vehicles (okay, usually just the rear), but they can perform important picket duty against the sort of light vehicles that really threaten Tyranids, like Land Speeders. Heavy vehicles are going to have to deal with obscured units. You can bring weapons that ignore cover, but they're generally weaker. The cost of the Venomthropes is easily outweighed by their value in providing that cover to massed units so that the Tyranids will survive fire direct at them as enemy units enter from reserves, and they provide utility in detering enemy assault troops trying to do what their firepower can't.

Anyhow, a new riff on the concept of containment involves something like (and I'll point it out later)

HQ
Tervigon

Elites
Pyrovore Brood
3x Pyrovores

Lictors
2x Lictors

Lictors
2x Lictors

Troops
Tyranid Warrior Brood
Warriors w/Adrenal Glands, Deathspitters, Rending Claws

Tyranid Warrior Brood
Warriors w/Adrenal Glands, Deathspitters, Rending Claws

Tyranid Warrior Brood
Warriors w/Adrenal Glands, Deathspitters, Rending Claws

Termagant Brood
10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
10 Termagants

Fast Attack
Raveners w/Deathspitters, Rending Claws

Raveners w/Deathspitters, Rending Claws

Heavy Support
Trygon

Trygon

The notion here is that most of the Tyranid army stays in reserve where they can't be shot at. The Tervigon will hopefully come in late where it can spawn like hell to capture those late game objectives. Hopefully the Warriors also come in after the Trygons, who will be creating tunnels. The starting Termagant broods are there to provide mobile cover for whoever needs them.

Wow... well, you may bash me for not 'getting' your list, but your counter list is more fail. I went out of the way to really critique and offer advice since you directed me to your thread via another topic, but it seems its mostly wasted.

"So far I've proposed a concept of mass, a concept of speed, and a concept of containment"

My list
Mass: 42 t6 wounds, 30 of which get a 4+ cover save just for showing up behind gants. And an additional 48 + 2 spawning termagants worth of non-t6 wounds.
Speed: My list has everything that doesn't shoot able to run with no penalty. I also have 24 infiltrating stealers for potential turn 1 charges and near guaranteed turn 2 charges, and 2 outflanking tervigons for turn 2 charges, with a +2 to reserve rolls depending on hive commander rules.
Containment: Enemy transports can be targeted up to 30 inches away from the hive guard, and can not hide. The MC/gant wall has enough hitting power and rerolls to survive losing half its number to shooting and still have the strength to beat almost any deathstar. Multiple outflankers with reserve bonus will keep the enemy from hugging the corners.

By the way, you may not like it, but without spamming at least 6 hive guard or 9 zoanthropes, you will auto lose to competitive mech eldar. Simple as. So if you dont want to auto lose to a popular tourney army, you need hive guard or max zoans. The fact that hive guard are also VERY good versus anything that is not a land raider or monolith is icing on the cake.

Single VC have about 50-55% chance to hit a vehicle. A twin linked have about 75-80%% chance to hit the same vehicle.

DevianID wrote:Wow... well, you may bash me for not 'getting' your list, but your counter list is more fail. I went out of the way to really critique and offer advice since you directed me to your thread via another topic, but it seems its mostly wasted.

Actually I believe he's complaining that in this thread We're trying (intentionally) to break away from the current group-think that seems to have locked discussion regarding Tyranid lists on this board. He's trying to propose we discuss lists that are "outside the box" (what is the box you ask, it's Shep's / Mahau's current "best list"). This thread is (I believe) intended to air optional builds with the intent of jarring the wheels on the "how do tyranids work" wagon to hopefully be able to resolve some of the issues that bind them. (Namley that you cannot put enough T6 wounds across from shooty guard / wolves to survive to turn 4). To that extent this thread is filled with Thought-experiments that are acknowledged to be suboptimal (in the current group-think) with the hope that someone will find something interesting to try.

DevianID wrote:
"So far I've proposed a concept of mass, a concept of speed, and a concept of containment"

My list
...

is still focused around shooting the opponent out of their transports.

DevianID wrote:
By the way, you may not like it, but without spamming at least 6 hive guard or 9 zoanthropes, you will auto lose to competitive mech Eldar. Simple as. So if you dont want to auto lose to a popular tourney army, you need hive guard or max zoans. The fact that hive guard are also VERY good versus anything that is not a land raider or monolith is icing on the cake.

Right, they're a good, cheap unit. they're also a lynchpin of most lists. Can you play without them? that is one of the questions this thread poses. It does it not by asking you to re-state what we know (they're good), but to think creativley and attempt to solve the "how do I get squishy things out of their metal boxes without shooting" problem.

Focus on synapse creatures and those few non synapse creatures and all the little creatures will be like "oh snap we are so lonely, so we must retreat" and then you when and your like AHHHH and the nid players like UHHHHH.

skipmcne, before I posted I swear I read the entire thread. I didnt see that we were supposed to not suggest the things that are good (elite shooting units) in favor of less viable options like pyrovores, in a serious attempt to make a decent list. I still dont get it i guess.

So other than shooting, then how about just spaming 120 stealers? Its a poor substitue, but you have board coverage at least.

DevianID wrote:skipmcne, before I posted I swear I read the entire thread. I didnt see that we were supposed to not suggest the things that are good (elite shooting units) in favor of less viable options like pyrovores, in a serious attempt to make a decent list. I still dont get it i guess.

So other than shooting, then how about just spaming 120 stealers? Its a poor substitue, but you have board coverage at least.

To be fair; you needed to be following Nurglitch around and understand that he is, what I'd call a "conscientious objector"; not in the sense of avoiding military service, but in intentionally posing ideas / assumptions that challenge what is the "currently held opinion". He does this consistently, and occasionally comes to some surprising and non-intuitive results (which no doubt is the reason he attempts it).

I think Shep originally tried two units of 'Stealers with a BL in one of his early playtests. He rapidly dismissed them as they have an issue with dislodging folks in cover.

That's not to say he didn't discard them early in his play-testing of the new codex. Or that he might have used them in a less than optimal fashion (he outflanked with them).

Weight of numbers CAN offset this to some extent, but assaulting anything anywhere NEAR cover is less than ideal for 'Stealers. That said, Few units could go toe to toe with the old Stealers. They certainley can help to apply pressure to the opponent especially if infiltrating. Few things say "shoot me now" more than a monster CC unit 12+ inches away.

Erm... putting a tervigon (and most of the rest of the army) in reserve without much in the way of reserve boosters sounds like an invitation for your opponent to bring in reserve-screwing models. Lictors have to be on the table to give their +1, and they come in via reserve... which means you're taking a significant risk of not getting your tervigon in until the last round.

Skip: I'm very surprised by the lack of BLs. I understand Shep didn't like them, but a BL with toxin and implant is an ideal MC- or IC-killer. 'Nid MCs of any type, special characters without eternal warrior... even an Avatar would think twice about going near one. I'm also reasonably sure they have a better shot against high AV vehicles than their points' worth of regular stealers...

skipmcne:

You get it. Very cool.

So I've been thinking:

HQ
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Toxin Sacs

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Toxin Sacs

Troops
Hormagaunts
x15

Hormagaunts
x15

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

1440
0180
0420
2040

Nurglitch wrote:So I've been thinking:

HQ
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Toxin Sacs

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Toxin Sacs

Troops
Hormagaunts
x15

Hormagaunts
x15

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

Carnifex Brood
x3 Carnifex

Opening transports the old fashioned way.
Everyone fights, no body quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself.

If your two tervigons die, you lose.

I do NOT like that the termagants spawned from a Tervigon count as a kill point, tervigons could just be spawning kill points in annihilation games.

But you don't have to spawn them. In a KP mission, try to consider the tervigons as a transport: it bloops out one unit of gants if and when it is needed.

As Mellon points out, you don't have to spawn the Termagants. The notion behind that last list is to send three broods of Carnifexes right up the middle and to overwhelm the enemy with the choice of targets. You could easily swap the Hormagaunts with broods of Tyranid Warrors, but consider that the Instinctive Behaviour of all units will be Feed. Sure, they'll have Rage, but they're heading towards the enemy anyways, and Carnifexes at least have a reasonable chance of acting tactically. They still need to fail a leadership test on Ld7 before they succumb, and they're Fearless to boot.

Regardless of the game, I think leaving one Tervigon in reserve works best so they can avoid being shot up early in the game, and hiding the other one behind some LOS-blocking terrain and waiting for necessity to birth objective-holding Termagants.

A variation on this I'd considered was dropping one Tervigon in favour of a Tyranid Prime, and Heavy Venom Cannons on all the Carnifexes. Still leave the Tervigon in reserve, and have a unit to protect the Tyranid Prime.

Alternately keep the Tervigons on the board and use Catalyst on the Carnifex broods if the enemy has lots of AP3+ weapons and few AP2- weapons.

Something else to consider might be:

HQ
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Troops
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Fast Attack
Harpie
w/Twin-Linked Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines

Harpie
w/Twin-Linked Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines

Ravener Brood
x3 Raveners
w/Rending Claws

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

That would give five Heavy Venom Cannons, five Stinger Salvos, 10 Monsterous Targets, around 10 scoring units, and some nice targeting problems.

It solves one of the problems with the previous list, which while fun, has five Monstrous Targets. There's enough Tervigons in this list to provide maximal redundancy, as well as Catalyse, Dominate, or Onslaught those five other Monstrous Creatures, and less worry about losing Synapse (important when fielding Instinctive Behaviour - Feed and Lurk models with guns. There own Stinger Salvos can be used to interdict light vehicles - all you need to do is get Stunned or Shaken results anyways, and the Monstrous Creatures themselves can provide anti-tank ripping power to some degree. Same with the Raveners, who are fast (6" move, 1D6 run, 12" assault).

Something to remember is that a Tervigon can use a psychic shooting power and its Stinger Salvo, and with a 6" move they have a 24" effective range.

So, the number of units is maximized, and the number of each kind of unit is maximized, with some synergy between units, but not at the expense of numbers, shooting (really just there to interdict enemy armour), or flexibility of engageable targets.