Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

if you can feel anything at all


Saturday a game i saw proved that point. 750 SWs vs orks. SWs drop podded in and wiped the orks in 2 turns.

LRC meltad the Battle wagon(which had run straight toward the LR hoping to Defrolla it, but couldn't reach it in the first turn) and mowed down the 2 boys nearby who failed their Ld test and fled off the board and the drop podded Grey hunters made the other squad of boyz run too.

Ork player forfited on turn 3

(ironic how i am using orkmoitcans to laugh at epic fail by orks )

Gogsnik wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:My point was that you couldn't send a battle barge 200 light years with a single drop pod on board just because a single squad of marines is so awesome that it will tip the balance in a campaign.

If a single squad of Marines would tip the balance in a campaign then it follows that it would be essential to get those Marines to that campaign.

Anyway, the whole raison d'être of the Astartes is to act as a mobile strike force that can go anywhere, anytime. Obviously those closest to a call for assisstance will be the ones to respond but feasibly any Chapter could and would send Marines to any battle anywhere in the galaxy where the presence of Astartes was either requested or needed.

My point is that all military organisations have a minimum size of unit which can operate by itself depending on the logistical support it requires.

In the case of a modern army, a squad of say 5 men can operate by themselves because if necessary they can call for backup in the form of air support, food, ammo, medevac, communications, etc from their own army. The SMs can't do that because all of their equipment and medical needs are different to the rest of the Imperial forces.

The smallest unit of SM which can operate by itself depends on specialised SM logistical support. This would consist of an Apothecary, an armourer, a Chaplain for a long campaign, a Techmarine for the vehicles, and so on. These guys are in short supply in a normal SM chapter, so when they are away with Squad F, the whole of the rest of the company is sitting around twiddling its thumbs until they get back. Consequently, you will only see small units deployed on short range, short duration missions, meaning that the company as a whole has to be kept fairly compactly deployed and won't be able to cover a lot of systems.

Kilkrazy wrote:
My point is that all military organisations have a minimum size of unit which can operate by itself depending on the logistical support it requires.

In the case of a modern army, a squad of say 5 men can operate by themselves because if necessary they can call for backup in the form of air support, food, ammo, medevac, communications, etc from their own army. The SMs can't do that because all of their equipment and medical needs are different to the rest of the Imperial forces.

The smallest unit of SM which can operate by itself depends on specialised SM logistical support. This would consist of an Apothecary, an armourer, a Chaplain for a long campaign, a Techmarine for the vehicles, and so on. These guys are in short supply in a normal SM chapter, so when they are away with Squad F, the whole of the rest of the company is sitting around twiddling its thumbs until they get back. Consequently, you will only see small units deployed on short range, short duration missions, meaning that the company as a whole has to be kept fairly compactly deployed and won't be able to cover a lot of systems.

My point would be that Mr Killkrazy should stick with his xenos......

OK , a real point.

Space marines do not need as much supplies as other imperial forces, they can live from what they find/require.
Space marines are also sent on missions to repent, alone.
Space marines are trained to survive without support/supplies.
So why do you believe they need a chaplain ( spirit ) a apothecary ( health ) and a armorer?
Ever dared to read some of the SM fluff books? You can't find there space marines twiddling thumps when there is none of those you deem neccessary ( chappy, doc, techguy ) available.

Maybe we should ask how many 'specialists' ( from the reclusiam, apothecarion, arsenal ) Mr killkrazy thinks that a standard sized space marine chapter has?

1hadhq wrote:

Space marines do not need as much supplies as other imperial forces, they can live from what they find/require.
Space marines are also sent on missions to repent, alone.
Space marines are trained to survive without support/supplies.
So why do you believe they need a chaplain ( spirit ) a apothecary ( health ) and a armorer?
Ever dared to read some of the SM fluff books? You can't find there space marines twiddling thumps when there is none of those you deem neccessary ( chappy, doc, techguy ) available.

Maybe we should ask how many 'specialists' ( from the reclusiam, apothecarion, arsenal ) Mr killkrazy thinks that a standard sized space marine chapter has?

Unless Space Marines can eat rocks and crap out ammo, promethium and spare parts for their armour, they need supplies. I know they can eat rocks, I just don't think they can crap out spares.

No doubt part of repenting is the increased chance of dying/failing, so the marine who succeeds has proved himself at a higher level.

No doubt they can survive a long time without supplies, if they are on a life compatible planet. So can ordinary humans. Not as fully armoured SMs though because their equipment would degrade and need repairs. Their fighting capability will be degraded.

I believe they need a chaplain because they are very religious, an apothecary to save their geneseed, and perform surgeries which would otherwise maim or kill them. An armourer is needed to perform advanced repairs on their armour and vehicles, and so on.

I've never read any GW novels and never will. They are fiction and present an idealised view for dramatic purposes.

I imagine a standard Chapter probably has one or two specialists of each kind per company, plus a cadre at the headquarters. It's enough to support a large unit but not a small unit because the parent unit would be left without support. So the whole Company can't be split down into small units and spread out too far.

Apothacaries are only taken when there is a larger conflict. All space marines know how to remove geneseed and store it in case of there being no apothecary to do it.

All space marines can care for and make temporary repairs to their armor, Space wolf omnibus: the blood claws have a sort of instant armor spray they can use to patch cracks and dents, i imagine most space marines have this too.

Space marines can confide in their brothers and the senior brother will lead prayers in a chaplains absence.

Kilkrazy wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Space marines do not need as much supplies as other imperial forces, they can live from what they find/require.
Space marines are also sent on missions to repent, alone.
Space marines are trained to survive without support/supplies.
So why do you believe they need a chaplain ( spirit ) a apothecary ( health ) and a armorer?
Ever dared to read some of the SM fluff books? You can't find there space marines twiddling thumps when there is none of those you deem neccessary ( chappy, doc, techguy ) available.

Maybe we should ask how many 'specialists' ( from the reclusiam, apothecarion, arsenal ) Mr killkrazy thinks that a standard sized space marine chapter has?

Unless Space Marines can eat rocks and crap out ammo, promethium and spare parts for their armour, they need supplies. I know they can eat rocks, I just don't think they can crap out spares.

No doubt part of repenting is the increased chance of dying/failing, so the marine who succeeds has proved himself at a higher level.

No doubt they can survive a long time without supplies, if they are on a life compatible planet. So can ordinary humans. Not as fully armoured SMs though because their equipment would degrade and need repairs. Their fighting capability will be degraded.

I believe they need a chaplain because they are very religious, an apothecary to save their geneseed, and perform surgeries which would otherwise maim or kill them. An armourer is needed to perform advanced repairs on their armour and vehicles, and so on.

I've never read any GW novels and never will. They are fiction and present an idealised view for dramatic purposes.

I imagine a standard Chapter probably has one or two specialists of each kind per company, plus a cadre at the headquarters. It's enough to support a large unit but not a small unit because the parent unit would be left without support. So the whole Company can't be split down into small units and spread out too far.

I see. You have BL on "ignore".

Funnily, space marines can and will survive injuries without apothecarys attending.
Also field repairs shouldn't surprise you, a space marine has to care for his wargear and some ( sallies ) would not need a techmarine below a certain degree of complexity.

So yes they need an apothecary to retrieve geneseed and they won't be able to save a wrecked vehicle without a techmarine.

Doesn't mean SM can't do anything witout a 'specialist' at hand.

How would an outpost ( dedicated to recrut new aspirants perhaps ) work, if we apply your point and every little group
of space marines needed those specialists?
How would any recon mission or sabotage mission work if the above mentioned specialists are essential?

The organization into a company with only 1 marine of a type of specialist wouldn't make sense if every squad could not operate without those specialists around.

I blame the GW illustrations, those picture space marine battles not as sci fi , but like ancient/medieval/renaissance battles got done
as oil paintings. Creating the false impression of space marines as gathered massive force of hundreds of marines.
Any commander worth his rank would distribute his elite ( the space marines ) to use their strengths and not pile them up
because none of the specialists is available.

Additionally, you cant have grey knight or deathwatch 'specialists' of the 3 types you mentioned.
So do both forces nothing cause they still wait to get some?

IMO, basing a point on the supportive members of a faction of 40k ( like the health or tech or spirit caring guys ) won't get anywhere as 40k does not consider health, food , fuel or ammo as beeing in shortage ever. IIRC the BRB answered the
possible questions about neccessary supplies as irrelevant cause the little plastic/metal figs should have have enough of
any needed piece for the time period of a game of 40k.
Therefore, those attending to such needs ( apo, tech, chap ) do exist, but get outshined by those in glorious poses....

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:There are THOUSANDS of Black Templars (8-10 thousand from some sources). And they are all deployed. And the Space Wolves have 12 companies, all of which can be deployed so its more like 4010 Deployments, making them a much bigger impact on the Imperium at large.


Every little bit helps

LOLWUT!? Black Templar have roughly 3,000 marines, period. About 300 of those, AT LEAST, are also stationed on planets they just conquered in order to watch over them. Your estimate is incredibly wrong by that assumption.

5th edition BT codex states 5000-6000. Page 8

Known chapters to have more than codex numbers:

Black Templars
Grey Knights
Space Wolves


But there are hundreds of UNDERSTRENGTH chapters that balance this out to an extent.

But if we say that 6 companies from each chapter are on deployment (average) then you have:
1000000 / 1000 x 6000 = 600000 on call throughout the imperium at any time.

now if the imperium has a billion worlds that's: 166 space marines per world.

One company of space marines per world. That's pretty good!

What? Unless I'm reading this wrong 600,000/1,000,000,000 is not good math. Even if you missed a zero in that 600,000 then 6 million per 1 Billion is not 166 marines per world.

oh i hate maths. Sorry I got it wrong way around.

It's near about 1/2 a marine per world......

Brother McGee hold that line!! Don't worry if you don't get that reference.

So, yeah if marines deploy to strategic points then there may be enough. If not the Guard better hold.

marines aren't meant to be EVERY WHERE always. the lore says there's one marine for evey planet in the imperium
pg. 5 of the marine codex "there is thus one Space Marine for each of the million worlds in the Imperium, a small number to be sure, yet sufficent for the task at hand."
Marines in fluff (and this is fluff we're talking about) first off are rarely fielded in mass and never die. A company of marines is what is taken to the battle field, 100 marines + the drivers of their transports. Then based off what is needed the reserve companies and scout companies are fielded too.

Corennus wrote:now if the imperium has a billion worlds that's: 166 space marines per world.

The Imperium is reputed to have a million worlds with one space marine per world. Those figures are repeated lots of times in various publications so your figures are way, way off.

i think he meant .166 marines perworld which if there were 1 billion impierial worlds would be proper.

official fluff states 1 million worlds at any one time (give or take a few 1,000 here and there) so approxamatly 1 space marine for each world.

Okay, first of all, from a pure fluff aspect, you are completely right. There are not enough Space Marines to take care of the entire Imperium. But also, according to the fluff, a single space marine could probably handle a couple of planets on his own, they are next to god-like after all. Secondly, regardless of how expansive the Imperium is, most of it is at peace most of the time. The most highly contested zones where all of the fighting is happening is on the fringes of Imperial controlled space. The last time war came anywhere near the inner part of the Imperium was during Horus' assault on Terra. That was partially why Horus' attack was so devastating; most of the space marine chapters were off on the front lines where they are usually needed. Also, for all of those times that the Imperium comes under attack, there are tons of guardsman waiting to absorb the beating until the space marines can show up to save their sorry buts.

Praise The Emperor!!!

That's why the Space Marines are referred to as the Sword of the Emperor, striking at the enemy's strongpoints with scalpel like attacks. The Guard is the Emperor's Hammer, slowly grinding down the enemy on broad fronts.

And as shown in Sons of the Snake one marine can take care of minor incidents on a world where a whole company of guardsmen might fail.

1337m45747r0y wrote:But also, according to the fluff, a single space marine could probably handle a couple of planets on his own, they are next to god-like after all.

No. According to the fluff, a Space Marine is equal to 10 regular soldiers. That's an astoundingly powerful force multiplier when you're in a cramped hive city or command bunker where you can't fit 10 regular soldiers to fight that 1 Space Marine. It isn't planet-killing though.

A company of space marines can hold out for months at a time against far superior numbers. A company of imperial guard will last five minutes.

That's because a company is a self-contained unit with all the logistical support it needs to maintain itself, except for bulk supplies of ammo, etc.

The question is whether a single squad is self-contained too, which I think not, in which a company cannot be broken down into single squads for widespread, long term deployment.

Read Brothers of the Snake. Or the Grey Knights omnibus (YES I KNOW GREY KNIGHTS ARE NOT NORMAL MARINES).

I think each squad does operate to an extent as an autonomous unit. or at least has the capacity to

Doesn't count.

Even fighting alone, each Space Marine is a formidable foe, with might enough to defeat many times his own number.

Yet a Space Marine seldom fights alone. Each is but one brother in a Chapter of a thousand warriors. Where one Space Marine stands, his brothers stand with him. There are only a thousand such Chapters spanning the galaxy, one thousand fortress-monasteries on scattered worlds, standing as bastions throughout the Imperium of Man. There is thus one Space Marine for each of the million worlds in the Imperium, a small number to be sure, yet still sufficient for the task at hand.

It is rare for an entire Chapter to fight as one. Only by dividing their might can the Space Marines oppose the many dangers to humanity. Most threats to the Imperium can be settled by the intervention of a relative handful of Space Marines, but such threats are many and the Space Marines few. Should a Chapter stand together in battle, its roster of heroes united in common cause, then the assembled might is sufficient to bring liberation or destruction to entire star systems.

Space Marines strike with the precision and fury of a thunderbolt. Drop Pods scream down from orbit at impossible speeds, slamming into the battlefield to disgorge squads of Space Marines into the heart of the foe.

Not for Space Marines the steady advance or the holding of fortifications. To them fall the most arduous and dangerous of duties: crippling strikes at the very heart of the enemy, the daring seizure of heavily fortified positions and nigh-hopeless battles against an infinitely outnumbering foe. By breaking the enemy where he is strong, so do the Space Marines harness surprise and dismay as their weapons.

Codex: Space Marines page 5

A few relevent passages from the current Space Marines Codex which tells us clearly what the Space Marines can do and how they might do it. We are told that most battles within the Imperium require only a handful of Space Marines and where they require more then the Space Marines attack directly at the most critical locations only.

The best analogy I think of is a recent article where American Commander of NATO General McChrystal praised both the SAS and the SBS who were 'at the heart of the fight against the Taliban and carrying out surgical attacks against its leaders'. Now in Afghanistan he said 'they are a very flexible force and have ranged pretty effectively [throughout the country].' Coupled with a joint US Special Forces and SAS drive to kill as many senior Taliban as possible "to attrit down the leadership". He goes on to say, 'They have built on all the things they learned about – intelligence-driven operations, very precise targeting, the ability to show a tremendous amount of energy so that you can hit the network as many times as the intelligence will support.' And he also said this, 'I know one squadron (A Squadron SAS) that in a six-month rotation of 180 days I think they did 175 operations.' Those Squadrons comprise around sixty men and a Major.

Using that as a basis for what the Astartes could do, we say each Astartes is worth ten soldiers so we could probably agree that a Tactical Squad easily compares to sixty SAS troopers. The SAS take out command elements using speed and surprise and go out every single night on combat missions, the Astartes do the same except that a Tactical Squad can drop-pod directly on top of the enemy and each one of them is like a walking tank, immune to small arms fire and carrying weapons and enough ammo to turn a few dozen men into red paste.

These attacks by the SAS are designed to simply erode the hierarchy to a point where the choice is, according to that General to either cut a deal or die. We already know that the majorigty of battles the Astartes take part only require a few of them and we also know that most of the tiem the Imperium is quashing internal rebellions so we can easily imagine that what the SAS are doing is a good example of exctly what the Astartes will be doing most of the time. In that case dissidents threatned with the God-Emperor's Angels of Death will probably give in before the Astartes even turn up and will deffinitely give up after their command structure is ruthlessly butchered not to metnion ordinary citizens who thought they were getting something out of a rebellion who think "bugger this, I'm off home, I'm not getting blasted into steaming chunks of offal liek those idiots. 'Sides, the Imperium isn't so bad is it?"

In all of the major campaigns waged by the Imperium the emphasis is always on the fleets of the Navy and billions of Guardsmen who do most of the fighting. The Astartes naturally seem heroic because they go into the worst situations and secure the vital assets but they don't do that in isolation, they achieve these missions because the majorty of enemy forces is tied up in a meat-grinder with other Imperial Forces.

Consider all the various races and how they rely on thier commanders: Tau are nothing without their Ethereals and won't hesitate to back off when they start getting killed; Orks fall into disarray when their warlords are killed because they start fighting each other to determine who takes over and both of those situations describe Chaos Forces who either no when to give up or start fighting each other. The Tyranids turn into mindless beasts with Synapse creatures, Necrons phase out and the Eldar are too few in number to waste themselves in battle in the first place.

There are plenty of Astartes to carry out the tasks they are made for but those tasks are only possible when taken into context, the whole Imperial warmachine needs to be in place for that to happen although the Astartes are known for dairing suicide missions if it will make a difference to the big picture.

Yup I agree. The Imperial Guard is the main army (with special forces like marines for harder jobs), and the Astartes are akin to the SAS/SBS/Delta Force/Navy SEALs combined.

I am responding to some material on page so sorry if my opinion is outdated.(BAD SPELLING INC!)

If one squad of marines could tip the campaign by, lets say, destroying a dam. Why not cripple ALL the opponents defenses simutanioesly? Why take out 1 dam when you can take out a supply line, orbital gun, and a recruitment center? All at once this could be done, much more effective do to the fact that they cannot plan a adequate defense for the incomg astartes!

It all depends on logistics crazy. A single squad of marines can insert into a system pretty easily without being detected (Wolf's Honour)

But to go after multiple targets simultaneously requires more marines, which means greater risk of detection and failure.

cRaZy_MaChEtE_mAn wrote:I am responding to some material on page so sorry if my opinion is outdated.(BAD SPELLING INC!)

If one squad of marines could tip the campaign by, lets say, destroying a dam. Why not cripple ALL the opponents defenses simutanioesly? Why take out 1 dam when you can take out a supply line, orbital gun, and a recruitment center? All at once this could be done, much more effective do to the fact that they cannot plan a adequate defense for the incomg astartes!

It is basic economics, and applies to governments as well as companies. They naturally attempt to grow and use all their resources as efficiently as possible. You are attempting to do as much as you can with as little as possible.

Yes, instead of taking out 1 damn you could take out dozens...our you could have one space marine at dozens of battles. It is all about being a force multiplier and diminishing returns. There is a point of optimal return on investment. Everything payed beyond that point suffers from diminishing returns. No offense meant by this, but taking your logic to its conclusion, why not then just use a whole company and assault each enemy platoons command structure. Then why not take a whole chapter and assault every seargent. Why not take multiple chapters and attack every solder.

I'm going to clarify since there it can be hard to get tone across the internet: I don't mean that in any disrespectful tone, I recognize that you can see the problem with that, I'm just using the logical argument of reducto ad absurdum. It illustrates why it is best to find the optimal force instead of just using more force. To make the best use of a resource you try your best to apply just the right amount, and if one squad on a damn is enough to turn a battle, than you send the rest of the squads to other battles

Kilkrazy wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The solution to the problem is to take SM fluff as propaganda.

Equally, you could argue just as effectively that the game's pursuit of Game Balance has resulted in table top stats that bear no relation to the armies they depict so that anyone can use any army against any other army and expect both armies to be even in their chance of success thanks to their relative points values.

If the game represented the background perfectly then some armies would never get used, some wouldn't ever be usuable against certain enemies (due to their position within the galaxy and the fact that some armies or special characters simply didn't exist at the same point in time), tables would need to be ten times bigger, Imperial Guard, Tyranid and Ork armies would require thousands of models and one Space Marine would be as poweful as an entire tactical squad in the current game.

The current Space Marine Codex explains the role of Space Marines quite well, their battles are supposed to last only a few hours, drop podding directly on top of the most strategically important locations, butchering the enemy and moving on. If they get caught in a battle that lasts days or weeks the Space Marines withdraw and let other Imperial Forces sort out the meat-grinder.

For me there are two armies that are woefully under-represented in the game; PDF and Arbites, especially the Arbites. We know that the Arbites are the first line of defence on every single Imperial World, they have the mobile strike capabilities of the Astartes, they have huge armies of Arbitrators and excellent equipment and their stock in trade is the suppression of rebellions, the single most prevalent type of warfare within the Imperium. Is there an Arbites army? No. Is there a PDF army for the game? No. Are these armies on every Imperial world? Yes. Do they fight in every rebellion and invasion? Yes.

The problem isn't the Space Marine background, the real problem is that the vast array of other Imperial Forces that should be in almost every game of Warhammer 40,000 don't even exist as playable armies.

There is truth in what you say.

My point was that you couldn't send a battle barge 200 light years with a single drop pod on board just because a single squad of marines is so awesome that it will tip the balance in a campaign.

Space Marines DO tip the scale in wars. That is pretty much the reason they were created. If the Imperial Guard if fighting for 10 years and getting nowhere, then a squad or two of SM will show up and wipe out the fiercest of the opposition.

And I think the BT have around 8000 marines.

That's the way it has to be, people seem to forget that SM are the cream of the crop for all intents and purposes, they go where they are needed most.

Truly is the Imperial Guard that hold the Imperium together!

Even though it IS rather odd saying that there are so few marines. In Fallen Angels they discuss the recruitment of Dark Angels from the planet Caliban. In there they talk about how many troops they recruit in one training cycle on one planet. Of course, numbers are thrown off in this because: it was in a Legion format, not a chapter format; it was pre-heresy, when technology was at its best; It was a legion's homeworld; and they had worked hard to streamline their recruitment processes. I think they said they had over 4000 recruits in one training cycle which lasted a few months or something. Can't remember exactly.

Dialask wrote:Even though it IS rather odd saying that there are so few marines. In Fallen Angels they discuss the recruitment of Dark Angels from the planet Caliban. In there they talk about how many troops they recruit in one training cycle on one planet. Of course, numbers are thrown off in this because: it was in a Legion format, not a chapter format; it was pre-heresy, when technology was at its best; It was a legion's homeworld; and they had worked hard to streamline their recruitment processes. I think they said they had over 4000 recruits in one training cycle which lasted a few months or something. Can't remember exactly.

Space Marines Chapters can accept as many recruits as they want. However, most of these recruits don't actually make it to become full space marines.

Many die during the indoctrination process; their bodies reject the new organs or other unexpected complications occur. Of those that do survive, there is always the chance they will be reduced to mutated, mindless killing machines.

Then, the recruit needs to survive his tenure as a scout marine before he receives his Black Carapace, which I'm sure isn't easy.

So Marines are kept in reserve for "special" situation because they are NOT easy to replace.