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Kroot are slow and not very effective in assault. Due to drop pods land speeder and fast skimmer scouts people can always heavy flame the kroot without fearing a charge. Even if you do charge you're likely hitting on 6s and glnacing on 6s and then getting heavy flamed again.

6+ save is a waste of points, ask any Ork player if he could have his Orks for a point cheaper at the cost of their 6+ save and I'm pretty certain every single player would take that. So taking the shaper for the 6+ save is largely pointless (their bigger vulnerability is template weapons rather than blast and in neither case will armour help them). Why spend 28 points on a guy that hits no harder than a normal kroot, why not just take normal Kroot that way you get 4 wounds instead of 3 and 12 attacks instead of 5! If you're throwing Kroot forward into assault you're wasting because they won't win. If you outflank them they can win against his firebase in assault if it is small enough.

You can use them to assault the enemy once he's hit you first as a counter assault. But this means throwing away a better unit first or you can use them as a speed bump against first turn charges so that he doesn't grump all your Hammerheads turn 1 because he's auto hitting with his powerfists. So that he can't drop his veterans and or melta toting guys within 6" of your Hammerheads or Broadsides and toast them before you've had a chance to even get out your tape measure.

Whilst Kroot are the best assaulters in the Tau army don't let that fool you into thinking they are good assaulters. I'd fancy even Space Marine scouts against them in CC.

@ TopC: First, who says I am gonna take hounds? How many points is that?

The whole idea is not "stand up Point for Point", dude.
What you said "Tau shoot, they do not CC well" is exactly right. And why so taking back; plain truth is Tau CC sucks. Avoid CC at all cost is Tau players creed.
And through what you just stated you proved my point in an different way, just you didn't comprehend what I am thinking about.
So from your reasoning what's the point to take a minimum size (still talking about 10 here) Kroot squad who has absolutely no save whatsoever and would definitely break in the first round of enemy shooting, regardless of the chance being entirely wiped out? Speed bumps? Use Fling's reasoning how long you would stand in front of Heavy Flamer? Why a highly mobile all-skimmers Tau army (don't tell me you are planning otherwise) would ever NEED a speed bump?

In my method these hordes of Kroots are never intended to take the CC role in the field. Not at all. They suck in CC. They are never mean to be regarded important in any form of Tau army. Every Tau commander would agree with this.
Why take them in such a full number to infiltrate and shaper's Sv6+ is making them sucking less. Sustain a little bit longer under fire and minimum the chance to be under fire.
Bring the war to the enemy (get rid of the whole being-shot-at business), screw the enemy plan (now this is what I called speed bumps), and die a glorious death - I don't care they survive.

No need to play Mathhammer. Because the point is not win the little skirmish. The point is giving the fire caste a chance to seize the initiative and win the war.


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@ Fling: If this is a 10-Kroots squad yeah you can have the chance (not guaranteed; formation matters) wipe them out in one turn without fearing a charge. But this is a full size squad; and you helped me prove my point: "getting heavy flamed AGAIN". Thanks. How many turns you can (or you dare to) waste these state-of-art equipments sitting on these Kroots bastards that I never intend to see them survive? Regardless I have the chance to tear a armor plate off your skimmers.

Compared to automatically wound on hit, Sv6+ is never a waste of pts. Don't ask too much from Kroots; they are not comparable to the SM strongs and never they should. They suck in CC, like the whole personality of Tau; so I don't intend to use them that way from the beginning. See the post replying TopC to find out what I mean by that.

And exactly. To be a speed bump against a superior-in-quality enemy what is the desperate needed? Quantity. How many turns you get to survive with 10 Kroots with direct wound-on-hit? How about 20 with at least Sv6+? Not mentioning I have the chance to taste some Astarte flesh too.

And yes. I already said they SUCK in assault compare to other races. When did I care?

Kroot do not suck in CC. They are almost ork slugga boyz on the charge. With equal points of Kroot and Terminators and Kroot in assault Kroot should win. The main issue is getting them there unmollested.

ryanstartalker wrote:@ TopC: First, who says I am gonna take hounds? How many points is that?

The whole idea is not "stand up Point for Point", dude.
What you said "Tau shoot, they do not CC well" is exactly right. And why so taking back; plain truth is Tau CC sucks. Avoid CC at all cost is Tau players creed.
And through what you just stated you proved my point in an different way, just you didn't comprehend what I am thinking about.
So from your reasoning what's the point to take a minimum size (still talking about 10 here) Kroot squad who has absolutely no save whatsoever and would definitely break in the first round of enemy shooting, regardless of the chance being entirely wiped out? Speed bumps? Use Fling's reasoning how long you would stand in front of Heavy Flamer? Why a highly mobile all-skimmers Tau army (don't tell me you are planning otherwise) would ever NEED a speed bump?

In my method these hordes of Kroots are never intended to take the CC role in the field. Not at all. They suck in CC. They are never mean to be regarded important in any form of Tau army. Every Tau commander would agree with this.
Why take them in such a full number to infiltrate and shaper's Sv6+ is making them sucking less. Sustain a little bit longer under fire and minimum the chance to be under fire.
Bring the war to the enemy (get rid of the whole being-shot-at business), screw the enemy plan (now this is what I called speed bumps), and die a glorious death - I don't care they survive.

No need to play Mathhammer. Because the point is not win the little skirmish. The point is giving the fire caste a chance to seize the initiative and win the war.


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@ Fling: If this is a 10-Kroots squad yeah you can have the chance (not guaranteed; formation matters) wipe them out in one turn without fearing a charge. But this is a full size squad; and you helped me prove my point: "getting heavy flamed AGAIN". Thanks. How many turns you can (or you dare to) waste these state-of-art equipments sitting on these Kroots bastards that I never intend to see them survive? Regardless I have the chance to tear a armor plate off your skimmers.

Compared to automatically wound on hit, Sv6+ is never a waste of pts. Don't ask too much from Kroots; they are not comparable to the SM strongs and never they should. They suck in CC, like the whole personality of Tau; so I don't intend to use them that way from the beginning. See the post replying TopC to find out what I mean by that.

And exactly. To be a speed bump against a superior-in-quality enemy what is the desperate needed? Quantity. How many turns you get to survive with 10 Kroots with direct wound-on-hit? How about 20 with at least Sv6+? Not mentioning I have the chance to taste some Astarte flesh too.

And yes. I already said they SUCK in assault compare to other races. When did I care?

Point is this, a 10 man squad infiltrated into cover can provide a meat shield for the killy units in a tau army just as effectively and for a much lower pt cost than a large squad of kroot w/ a shaper since if you infiltrate into cover your going to be taking that 4+ cover or 3+ for going to ground..or 3+ tree cover 2+ going to ground cover save... which if the enemy is using shots to clear them out of the way so they can assault whats behind them, they are doing their job eating enemy fire. If you take that 6+ armor save and you get flamed the flamer is still going to ignore your armor save..so its a lose lose situation..

instead of putting yourself in a lose lose situation you could spend the same amount of points on multiple speed bumps giving your army more redundancy in its ability to protect itself from losing more important/threatening pieces to enemy fire/assaults..all for a reduced point sink which can be used to make other areas of your army more apt at killing the enemy..

@ H3ct0r: What I mean by Kroot sucks is that they suck in one-to-one HtH evaluation, which is pretty obivious and these gentlemen have emphasis on for several posts. What you said is the same to my reasoning: "With equal points", sheer number of Kroots would lead to the result "Kroot should win". Actually that reminds me of the Space Hulk game and genestealer tactics...


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@TopC: You are back onto the cover save road again... Jesus... That's largely depend on the tabletop layout and can't be changed according to our humble will... If there's cover save included we won't have these discussion here. How about 20 Kroots in the woods?
I see you point of layered speed bumps... Like the German army trench system in WWI... And I see your plan even more passive in nature and still, a "lose-lose situation" if I may say. Heavy flamer. First wound-on-hit comparing to Sv6+ is essentially WORSE, reasonable? Second that's why I need the sheer number of the Kroots. See the reply to Fling to find out.

Why if you are talking about absorbing enemy fire from hitting "more important/threatening pieces" you should agree with me! With the 10-man squad that wound-on-hit Kroots would shiver into retreat at the first sound of gunfire (thinking about 25% of 10 and 25% of 20...), but with the 20-man squad you would at least get the tiny chance to "counter"-assault...

@ your reply to TopC, a 20 man Kroot squad needs to take more casualties to force a moral check yes, but if it does fail that then there goes 20 Kroot, running. If they are 10 man squads then your opponent needs to have 2 squads with flamers to hit both like the 20 man squad got hit. Unless you can focus a powerfull defence to protect your Kroot (which may be counter intuitive at they are likely distractions/ spare wounds) I think smaller squads have better survivability against template weapons.

[In cover both squads can take a disproportionate amount of firepower for their points which midgigates much of their moral issues but a 20 man squad has the advantage in survivability but loses out in utility for counter assault and meat shielding.]

In regards to the shaper, it in itself is a waste of points, being inferior to simply getting more Kroot, the 6+ saves in addition will only increase the survivability of the squad by 1/6 against ap- ranged weapons and non power weapon melee attacks (mostly) leaving out the majority of ranged weapons and power weapons. Getting extra Kroot on the other hand raises the offensive power of the squad by 1/6, increases the number of nessecary kills to force a moral check by 1/6 and durability by 1/6, not to mention that each unsaved wound will reduce the firepower of the squad by less, when extra members are added over armour. The main redeeming quality of the Shaper is the increase to the Kroot squads leadership.

Finally, if you plan to use kroot as a meat shield/distraction then 10 man squads make sense. They even make effective counter chargers at 10 men. 20 man squads make for better counter attackers then 10 but 2 10 man squads cost the same and can each attack the same squad so are better in this respect due to ability to charge seperate units. Also, finding some cover should not be a major issue due to the amount of cover that should be on the board. It doesn't have to be woods.

@ your point towards me
I am unsure what you mean by one-to-one HTH evaluation. Please explain what you mean by this so I can respond properly. Thanks

A few other things

They are never mean to be regarded important in any form of Tau army. Every Tau commander would agree with this.

I don't know if you mean fluff commanders or real world ones but in either case I believe your wrong. In the fluff Kroot are seen as useful allies not to be wasted and in real life there are plenty who would say they rock. (at least in my experience)

Bring the war to the enemy (get rid of the whole being-shot-at business), screw the enemy plan (now this is what I called speed bumps), and die a glorious death - I don't care they survive.

Sending a Kroot squad at the enemy alone or with little support should acomplish little as a base strategy (it could work if the situation allows). A squad alone with 6+ saves 20 strong with LD8 is unlikely to survive any real attention and is unlikely to mess up many battle plans. If you mean by Infiltrate or outflank then this strategy becomes much more viable but still...

your better off just moving as close as possible, rapid firing and blocking the routes to more important units behind them..

now on the marines turn they still have to get through the kroot, where as if oyu assaulted you have chances of losing combat and gettng swept, them consolidating closer and then going NOM NOM NOM to the rest of your army... which is exactly why i advocate 10 man squads vs the more expensive larger squads.

20 man kroot squads w/ shaper in a vacuum is good, but when you mix in all the units you could be beefing up in their place, or the extra layers of defense you could have and then factor in the different units/weapons the enemy is bringing to bare on you they fail

@ H3ct0r: Quite clear reasoning man. First to clarify what I mean about one-to-one HTH evaluation, simply as it reads, put a terminator and a kroot together and fight. Outcome determined before the battle started (of course without extremely good or bad luck). The power of Kroots lies in the quantity, as it seems we all agree on.
So the argument turns to that is it better to use the pts consumed on the shaper on getting more Kroots. Well the max size for a Kroot squad is 20. More Kroots would mean another squad low in number, unless taking another 20, which is... rare.
For taking shaper my standing point is the leadership increase. Combined with the sheer number of 20-man squads, they can reasonably endure the first round of flaming and "counter"-charge the next turn, at least better than 10-man squad. I don't see your point that

smaller squads have better survivability against template weapons.

With neither number base or increased Ld, Smaller squads would either be wiped out or immediately turn and run, as simple as that.
In the case of counter assault it's the same thing. Bigger squad means lower chance of fleeing, bigger number of hits&wounds, which would be decisive in determining who win the CC battle. Not to mention the increased Ld effect. You would say how about 2 10-man squad. They would suffer from the lacks of advantage stated above, only advantage they have would be that their CC battle results would be evaluated separately. But with a survived 7~8-man Kroot squad all alone in face of enemy and another squad broken and fleeing, is there any chance for the squad left to see another turn?
Charge separate units would be an issue... I'll think about it.
Cover save would work more in favor of big squad, reasoning all above. But just a light favor, I admit.
You know sometimes I think I am a pretty contradicting guy... What I mean by not important is that Kroots are allowed to take casualties, or "expendable", compared to FWs and Battlesuits of the Fire Caste, who obviously not that expendable, fluff-wise or reality-wise. I am not saying they don't rock occasionally. They rock only when the Tau commanders expend them wisely. In this case taking 10 Kroots with no shaper doesn't appear wise to me.
And you got it. I mean to use them to infiltrate. I said that before in the post reply. I want to hear more about that

but still...

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@TopC: Other than blocking the routes, I choose to infiltrate across the enemy line to where they start, and drag them into CC in the precious 1st turn when the important units zoom onto the objectives and set down the gun-lines behind comfortable covers... How about that?

Interesting thought about consolidation movements dragging too long and bringing trouble to myself... Um... That's why you advocate 10 man squads who instantly broke or wiped out? I would rely on the number of 20 man squads and increased Ld to sustain for the 1st turn engaged and stuck in CC one more turn until there are enough damage done to the Kroots they would never caused the problem you stated (which, I proved twice in the real game, once just before I departed for the U.S. in August, 2009)

Um... talking about layers of defense here now. I never rely on Kroots for defense purposes. No need. Tau volume of firepower and markerlights are all about it. Kroots to me are expendable bait and "counter"-charge, that's all. But they still need to be used wisely and seriously.

Why a highly mobile all-skimmers Tau army (don't tell me you are planning otherwise) would ever NEED a speed bump?

To protect you from turn 1 assaults as I already said. Also to protect you heavy hitters from DP and fast scouts getting into either assault or melta range in turn 1...

Kroot do not suck in CC. They are almost ork slugga boyz on the charge.

Sorry I had to pull this up. A slugga boy puts out 5 S4 attacks on the charge a Kroot puts out 3. In the return the Kroot has T3 the slugga boy T4 and 6+ save.

Lets compare them with a shoota boy. Right Kroot has Bs3 and 24" range so he's better at range right? Wrong the Boy might have Bs2 but his weapon is assault meaning he can move 6" and shot 18" for a total range of stil 24" and he gets 2 shots to the kroots 1 shot. So at range he is better. He is also more survivable due to higher toughness. Whilst on the ccharge he pumps out 5 S4 attacks compared again to the Kroots 3...

So for the same points the shoota boy is more survivable better at range and better in assault.


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@TopC: Other than blocking the routes, I choose to infiltrate across the enemy line to where they start, and drag them into CC in the precious 1st turn when the important units zoom onto the objectives and set down the gun-lines behind comfortable covers... How about that?

If I was using my marines I would absolutely love you to do that. It would be great. My fast elements would just ignore them knowing they can now hit your main battle line. Meaning I'm crumping suits and hammerheads in assault on turn 1. Whilst my Hammernators can use your kroot as a spring board to get further up the field quicker by not only getting to assault an extra 6" move but them get to consolidate and extra d6" move and since you've used a nice big squad and they can't sweep I'll get to do the same in the next turn if I need to ensure I can assault whatever I want with them in turn 3 . Happy days!

Kroot are a meat shield, throwing them into the face of the enemy early is a bad move, taking a shaper is a waste of points. You want a horde take hounds and buff to a 32 man squad. Then either use them to castle against alphastrikes or outflank to hit the enemy objective in the late game.

A large squad can be forced into a morale check by a single heavy flamer and could be forced into fleeing by it. 2 small squads can't!

FlingitNow wrote:

Why a highly mobile all-skimmers Tau army (don't tell me you are planning otherwise) would ever NEED a speed bump?

To protect you from turn 1 assaults as I already said. Also to protect you heavy hitters from DP and fast scouts getting into either assault or melta range in turn 1...

Kroot do not suck in CC. They are almost ork slugga boyz on the charge.

Sorry I had to pull this up. A slugga boy puts out 5 S4 attacks on the charge a Kroot puts out 3. In the return the Kroot has T3 the slugga boy T4 and 6+ save.

Lets compare them with a shoota boy. Right Kroot has Bs3 and 24" range so he's better at range right? Wrong the Boy might have Bs2 but his weapon is assault meaning he can move 6" and shot 18" for a total range of stil 24" and he gets 2 shots to the kroots 1 shot. So at range he is better. He is also more survivable due to higher toughness. Whilst on the ccharge he pumps out 5 S4 attacks compared again to the Kroots 3...

So for the same points the shoota boy is more survivable better at range and better in assault.


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@TopC: Other than blocking the routes, I choose to infiltrate across the enemy line to where they start, and drag them into CC in the precious 1st turn when the important units zoom onto the objectives and set down the gun-lines behind comfortable covers... How about that?

If I was using my marines I would absolutely love you to do that. It would be great. My fast elements would just ignore them knowing they can now hit your main battle line. Meaning I'm crumping suits and hammerheads in assault on turn 1. Whilst my Hammernators can use your kroot as a spring board to get further up the field quicker by not only getting to assault an extra 6" move but them get to consolidate and extra d6" move and since you've used a nice big squad and they can't sweep I'll get to do the same in the next turn if I need to ensure I can assault whatever I want with them in turn 3 . Happy days!

Kroot are a meat shield, throwing them into the face of the enemy early is a bad move, taking a shaper is a waste of points. You want a horde take hounds and buff to a 32 man squad. Then either use them to castle against alphastrikes or outflank to hit the enemy objective in the late game.

A large squad can be forced into a morale check by a single heavy flamer and could be forced into fleeing by it. 2 small squads can't!

lol well obviously if you had guys that could jump over i wouldnt do this, but i ment if it was foot slogging at this point it makes more sense as board control to prevent as much movement as possible while reducing the chances of the kroot breaking on my turn id rather you assault them with minimal movement and then make them break so i can pump you fulla shots again if you had jump packs or such then id screen where you can land, not where your currently at

lol well obviously if you had guys that could jump over i wouldnt do this, but i ment if it was foot slogging at this point it makes more sense as board control to prevent as much movement as possible while reducing the chances of the kroot breaking on my turn id rather you assault them with minimal movement and then make them break so i can pump you fulla shots again if you had jump packs or such then id screen where you can land, not where your currently at

Footsloggers are never a primary concern you can blast footsloggers to bits before they reach you unless it's a horde which again putting your kroot in front of doesn't help.

It is fast skimers, fast scouters/inflitraters, fast out flankers and DPs that you have to be weary of. Kroot fulfill a vitally important role against these types of enemy. Against anything else you don't really need the kroot as you can manour and fire to prevent them reaching your lines. If footsloggers are reaching your lines then the battle is over and your kroot wasted anyway.

Tau are all shiney and have hover vehicals and jump around and do cool things. Kroot just suck up air and Die horribly.

I have never been happy with Kroot performance. I rate them around grots. but grots have more uses.

@ Fling: You are still think in the way that you are against a dead Tau gunline that never know how to move. That's perfect for Mathhammer. Not real. Devilfishs can practically out-maneuver main transport for SM. (NOT talking about Lucifer-pattern here. Entirely different cases.) And okay you said skimmers and scouts. Speeder and scouts. Okay now first I don't believe AT ALL you can fly 48'' straight into the face of Broadsides and Hammerheads behind the cover and even threaten the Devilfishes till in RESERVE on the first turn. Infiltrating scouts? What are Battlesuits used for?

I said I never DEPEND on Kroots. Markerlights and Battlesuits is my style, if you read my introduction post up in the forum.

Second one is not my quote (I would never say that ), and to me had to say I like your reasoning.

And 32 horde is cool, and it could be one option for my way of using Kroots. I just have my reasons to use Shaper, pros and cons.

They CAN be forced into a morale check by single tempest. But 2 small squads CAN'T?? Is it because they die out directly?

@TopC: Agree. If the army against is jump packs or reserve-DS, it's entirely different scenario then. Put them where the opponent can land is one option. My option would be just retire all Kroots and put more fish and suits in reserve. How about raining suits?

@ Fling in reply to TopC: Yep I agree with the reasoning. Tau with markerlights can shoot everything dead on board that are footslogging before they reach 6'' (12'' if you have enough Heavy Support). But anyway my way using Kroots is not just against footslogger anyway.

@ vagorin: Um nicely said Oh come on they are not THAT bad! Just that grots can wage REAL swarm.

@ Fling: You are still think in the way that you are against a dead Tau gunline that never know how to move. That's perfect for Mathhammer. Not real. Devilfishs can practically out-maneuver main transport for SM. (NOT talking about Lucifer-pattern here. Entirely different cases.) And okay you said skimmers and scouts. Speeder and scouts. Okay now first I don't believe AT ALL you can fly 48'' straight into the face of Broadsides and Hammerheads behind the cover and even threaten the Devilfishes till in RESERVE on the first turn. Infiltrating scouts? What are Battlesuits used for?

Well the charge range of the speeder scouts in turn 1 is 45" the board is 48" across and (dependant on deployment type) I start 12" on. So ok I won't get at your devilfishes in reserve but yes your broadsides and Hammerheads in cover are dead or your crisis suits depends on what I think is the best target that is deployed. The Devilfish can't out manouvre any SM transports all have a top speed of 12".

I just have my reasons to use Shaper, pros and cons.

The pro is leadership the cons are wasting valuable points on unnecessary upgrades for what amounts to a meat shield and then wasting further points on a save throw they are unlikley to ever get to take except in CC and even then it'll maybe save 1 kroot per game if you're lucky. Just not worth spending more points to get fewer wounds and fewer attacks.

They CAN be forced into a morale check by single tempest. But 2 small squads CAN'T?? Is it because they die out directly?

A single template won't be able to effect both units so yes you toast or drive off 1 unit but the other is now fine. That's the advantage of having 2 seperate units.

@Fling: Miss my sentence boy.

That's perfect for Mathhammer. Not real.

Yeah in theory you can "whoosh" right over, but did you calculate if you end up in difficult/dangerous terrain? How you sure that you get so lucky that the scouts could charge in the same nice straight line the speeder traveled all the way to my units? Purely Mathhammer. Real game is not drawing lines and going with it. I don't even dare to say if I got the 1st turn I can pop every single vehicle and IC/SC/MC of yours on board in one turn. (Can I? Yeah absolutely. According to Mathhammer.) Can't out-maneuver do I have to remind you that EVERY vehicle in Tau list are skimmers, not like SM's scouts' privilege? And you know too well what that means, as you so overestimated your speeder.

Leadership. Yeah yeah you admit it. In my way this is the only thing matters, and don't forget that 6+ ARMOR save. Uh uh. Heavy flamer ignores COVER save; I don't care really but I am more than grateful to take that one-in-six chance to try my luck. Still you are using them as meat shield; different approaches. Bait, man, bait. Expendable, maximum effect (if there is any. )

How about would you please mathhammer just for once, just for me, calculate the surviving number of 20-man with Shaper being wound to 75% and pass the Ld test and charging into CC. Then comparing it to number 10 of the second 10-man squad (not considering being toasted or driven off by ANOTHER enemy units, but no casualties at all) charging into CC with all the Gods of Greater Good smiling to them. Which one bring more power into the CC?


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Oh and Fling, I just generally skimmed through the forum and kind of got a sense of how devoted and confident you are in the SM 1st turn alpha strike trick and trying to show how capable it is... Well no hard feeling man but it seems many people had a say on that, out of different argument and different countermeasure but all concurring to the same conclusion. My part of reasoning up there just a tiny part of the majority voices, that's all.

You said youself in the IG 1000pts post that your alpha strike works when confronted with static gunlines. Well then sorry sir I have to say you are still in the 4th Edition world, where gunline list is the common share of WH40k. I am obiviously a new guy here on the forum, but it doesn't mean I just start to play WH40k. I only played Tau before and only started SW army here but from my experience I can say that no sir, Tau is no at all the static gunlines. If I may say, if Tau plays in the style of static gunlines then they are absolutely dead. No matter what style of Tau army, Volume Precision and Mobility of firepower is the infinite remedy. That's actually IMO why GW puts all-skimmer vehicle list under Tau; that's what Tau is meant to be played, not mech breakthrough or disembark charges, but the flexibility in maneuver of the massive gunlines.

Sir I never use SM myself before and I know I probably have no say on this and I respect you career in Astartes, and planning all these tactics and strategy is essencial for good generalship; but what caused the Horus Heresy is because the Emporer is too confident in his grand plan of Great Crusade. Get what I mean? Specifically when it comes to skimmer tactics, don't just draw straight lines in mind. Ask more from experienced Eldar and Tau players; they deal with the skimmers every day themselves.

So. Just a piece of my thought.

Yeah in theory you can "whoosh" right over, but did you calculate if you end up in difficult/dangerous terrain? How you sure that you get so lucky that the scouts could charge in the same nice straight line the speeder traveled all the way to my units? Purely Mathhammer. Real game is not drawing lines and going with it. I don't even dare to say if I got the 1st turn I can pop every single vehicle and IC/SC/MC of yours on board in one turn. (Can I? Yeah absolutely. According to Mathhammer.) Can't out-maneuver do I have to remind you that EVERY vehicle in Tau list are skimmers, not like SM's scouts' privilege? And you know too well what that means, as you so overestimated your speeder.

Trust me with a 45" charge range I can pretty much charge whatever the hell I want, the scouts even have move through cover for that little extra security. Unless you castle I can assault whatever I want, trust me I've done it many times.

Leadership. Yeah yeah you admit it. In my way this is the only thing matters, and don't forget that 6+ ARMOR save. Uh uh. Heavy flamer ignores COVER save; I don't care really but I am more than grateful to take that one-in-six chance to try my luck.

Heavy flamer is AP4 flamer AP5 you won't get you're 6+ save against either in fact there's no ranged weapon that you'll get your 6+ save against that you wouldn't get a cover save against...

How about would you please mathhammer just for once, just for me, calculate the surviving number of 20-man with Shaper being wound to 75% and pass the Ld test and charging into CC. Then comparing it to number 10 of the second 10-man squad (not considering being toasted or driven off by ANOTHER enemy units, but no casualties at all) charging into CC with all the Gods of Greater Good smiling to them. Which one bring more power into the CC?

Yes the 20 man squad will bring more power into the charge if they charge. No that doesn't make it a good option. I've charged 6 hounds and 10 Kroot (which will have more hitting power than the survivors of your 20 man squad after a heavy flamer bath) in just 3 raptors and got butchered. Kroot really aren't that great in CC against many things.

You said youself in the IG 1000pts post that your alpha strike works when confronted with static gunlines. Well then sorry sir I have to say you are still in the 4th Edition world, where gunline list is the common share of WH40k. I am obiviously a new guy here on the forum, but it doesn't mean I just start to play WH40k. I only played Tau before and only started SW army here but from my experience I can say that no sir, Tau is no at all the static gunlines. If I may say, if Tau plays in the style of static gunlines then they are absolutely dead. No matter what style of Tau army, Volume Precision and Mobility of firepower is the infinite remedy. That's actually IMO why GW puts all-skimmer vehicle list under Tau; that's what Tau is meant to be played, not mech breakthrough or disembark charges, but the flexibility in maneuver of the massive gunlines.

Static gunlines are dead in 40k I've never said Tau are or should be a static gunline. I was pointing out in that IG players list that his alphastrike list has no response to another alphastrike list if he doesn't go first. We get a fair bit a alphastrike lists where I play (Shrike, IG etc) and you have to build your list to be able to deal with them if you're expecting your army to be competitive.

Yes I play Tau a lot and I always play them as a mobile gunline. Using mobility to concentrate their firepower, however their mobility isn't what it once was now that everyone else has got faster. Yes the vehicles are all skimmers and that does give some mobility advantages but don't expect that to just enable you to run away all day. SMs and particularly BA are overall as fast as you if not faster these days, heck there's an argument that BA are faster than sodding Eldar these days. With turn 1 assaults and fast outflankers you can't avoid CC or even expect to get a round of shooting in before you are in it any more. This is hwy you neede that kroot meat shield it is the only way we have of dealing with assault.

Trust me with a 45" charge range I can pretty much charge whatever the hell I want, the scouts even have move through cover for that little extra security. Unless you castle I can assault whatever I want, trust me I've done it many times.

Well as far as I trust your judgment sir I reserve my opinion on the speeder storm alphastrike and I trust my own judgment that skimmers are not that magical, according to my experience. I don't think the 45'' charge would work out perfectly in reality, just IMO. Plan is not real combat. I never see any people playing SM using this tactic before and unless I try once or twice on myself in the future I don't really have a say on that. And just curious: when we are discussing over the Kroots you are always using the heavy flamer as the killer. Which heavy flamer you mean? On the speeder as I may guess? Then how you get to alphastrike my other units at the same time. And one more tip, just in case. Tau Broadsides and Hammerheads are usually either on the friendly table edge or behind three-side secure covers. I have plenty (actually maximum amount) of reasons to believe the alphastrike would work. And as I said, Devilfish with FW could be put in reserve. You have even further hard choice to make: flame my Kroots or attack the Pathfinders and their Devilfish scouting?

I said with hounds and no shaper I would also consider the idea. And I never said they are great in CC against pretty much anything. My idea is to make the Kroots who suck suck less, and 10-man squad to me would definitely suck the most IMO. 20 Kroots shaper squad against the same unit (may we say assault marines) works at least better than 2 10 Kroots squad. Mathhammer solution.

And I am aware of the BA arguments going around for some time now, and I admit that as far as the codex read BA has the capacity to race against Tau and Eldar skimmers. And I reserve my opinion on the balance issue of new BA codex too. So never mind that's another topic then. And here we are not talking about your BA army I am against, right?

Also how about your alphastrike doesn't get the luck to go first and railguns shoot all the steelbox exploded on ground and out of the midair?

As for the heavy flamers I have them on Storms and in drop pods and on a GoI libby leading a sternguard squad. I'm not convinced you can get your Broadsides and Hammerheads completely surrounded by terrain certainly not an any table I've ever play on. It depends how near to your line the kroot are as eth scouts can assault in a different direction to where the LSS fires, but as I said I've plenty of other flamers I can put just about anywhere on the board I want in turn 1.

I really don't see why you think the 45" charge isn't a given for where your army will be. With the deployment that is is 57" from my table edge, I can reach anywhere except about 4" of each corner assuming I deploy centrally (which I always do for the alphastrike). The only bit that cover can reduce is the last 6" and that can reduce to a minimum of 1" (and that's a 1 in 216 chance) and that still gives me 40" which is still about 90% of the table I can hit. OK so you are reserving your FWs in fish they aren't really a threat to my army and if I assault your hammerheads and Broadsides in turn 1 the game is up for you at that point anyway.

If I don't go first I outflank them. That means you have to ignore 42" of the sides of the board (which is win for me) or again they can assault you before you get a shot off.

I really don't see the advantage in plowing points into a unit of kroot if it is still going to its death. Especially if you are giving up their primary role of preventing an alphastrike from wrecking your army before you've had a chance to fire a single shot...

Now I need to go find your list and get a look at your unique alphastrike army... May I have a link? Take heavy flamer in sternguard squad... With all those special ammo choose as you wish... Well up to you then. All your inches and percentage all depend on straight line deliver, right? That's the part I take back. Charge in a different direction? After your straight-line-maximum-distance thesis in the alphastrike you dare to turn in a different direction and risk to miss that miracle charge by 1'' (your Mathhammer result ) and stop right in my whole army's fire range? Fine with me. I expect trouble in all forms of assaults on my Tau units all the time (what else could trouble a Tau army?) and if I were you I would expect trouble in conducting of this plan. It happens too often here and there your perfect plan goes wrong, not to mention knowing your single-minded strategy there're so many counter-measures. I'll give examples later.

About Broadsides and Hammerheads I'll explain later in the reply. Back to Kroots first, which is what we're really talking about.

I really don't see the advantage in plowing points into a unit of kroot if it is still going to its death.

Exactly my friend. If you go back my previous replies you will know I seldom take Kroots in my list except the terrains are favorable. I already said Kroots suck before... even as speed bumps. (And I explain why before) To bring us back to why we start this discussion from the beginning we are arguing whether 10-man squad or 20-man with Shaper squad works better for Kroots. We are not really saying how great Kroots are. None of us did that. Only on how it works better than worst.

To generalize everything I said in this post: IMO, Kroots are going to their doom, one way or another. And use minimum-size squad to deploy them and using them as passive meat-shield (which would cause them to die even faster and without doing their job assigned) is just simply feeding those points to the enemy. If not taking them seriously, then why bother taking them? (That's where I started) So if you wanna use them seriously - then use them in sufficient number and commit to their CC nature (showed in stat), and use them aggressively If you see them expendable (which is merely everybody) then expend them to their maximum use. Full number + Sv6+ + Ld increased + infiltrate, their only way to be any use - charge into CC with all their tiny might and make it happens as soon as possible. And 10-man squad would neither accomplish their role of meat-shield successfully (which I am against anyway) nor live to their deadly glory of mass charge. 20-man squad fulfill them all. I don't think you have the temper to let a mass bulk of nasty-looking lizzards unchecked right on your flank and in direct-charge range(infiltrate; you got the 1st turn, all riggggght?) and go for my so-you-said "exposed" main force.

Just to clarify. I always prefers to use these points on Kroots to get more suits or their gears instead. XV8s DS or reserve-arrival and Hit & Run between covers (give their special personality of jet packs) is my style of Tau. Solely cause of this reason I couldn't watch the precious Tau pts waste away in a wrong way on a wrong unit...

Now you want me to explain if ("even if" really...) you just single mindedly come for my main force and successfully launch your attack on Hammerheads and Broadsides, what you still have to face/get passed. Flechette discharger for Hammerheads and shield drones for Broadsides. From what you argued and the way Tau always deploys their Heavy Support, I only see any possibility you alphastrike could reach me is scouts on speeder storm, and scouts are definiely not the strongest units during charge in the galaxy right? It seems I have plenty of chance to make your every punch disappeared into 2+ Sv and 4+ invulnerable Sv and it not even happened on my Broadside's body or even spike these light-armored scouts to death if my luck is average. And even if you achieved some fruit after all these... Do you think these guys would get away the next turn with Tau's full force arrives from reserve? Five scout one speeder... Huh... Not mentioning the Kroots you ignored and the Pathfinders find their victims with markerlights...

Now I need to go find your list and get a look at your unique alphastrike army... May I have a link? Take heavy flamer in sternguard squad... With all those special ammo choose as you wish... Well up to you then. All your inches and percentage all depend on straight line deliver, right? That's the part I take back. Charge in a different direction? After your straight-line-maximum-distance thesis in the alphastrike you dare to turn in a different direction and risk to miss that miracle charge by 1'' (your Mathhammer result ) and stop right in my whole army's fire range?

I honestly don't see how where you could deploy to deny me the charge except in a very specific terrain set up even then I doubt it. This is not mathhammer, 45" charge range from the centre of the board (it is a skimmer remember) gets me where ever I want to be with room to spare hence why I can, and often do, flame in a diffferent direction to the way I assault with my scouts particularly against Tau where I don't need the heavy flamer support to win the assault. It is not like I am going to the last inch to reach you. 36" will be enough to ensure I reach your line, everything else is bunce and just further helps target choice.

It's not a perfect plan, it's just an alphastrike that gaurantees combat in turn 1. You are the only person I've ever talked to who thinks they can hide from a 45" charge whilst still deploying their army. However the point isn't really just about my army it is about alphastrikes in general. That is what Kroot protect you from alphastrikes are fast assaulters. Guys who will hit you line in turn 1 and 2, these guys won't really (in general) have huge fire power except very short range. So it doesn't matter if you kroot are vulnerable to getting shot up.

We both agree using them for CC isn;t a great option so why plow points into that option to just make them OK? Heck I doubt they'd even win against 10 Tac marines, certainly not 10 grey hunters even with your config so what's the point? However if they stop that alphatrike by preventing those DP meltas from being in melta range of your tanks, preventing those heavy flamers from being in range of your pathfinders and protecting you tanks and suits from tat first turn charge then they've done their job. You stop my army dead to the loss of 20 kroot and I'm now sat in rapidfire range of all your guns with what amounts to a paper cannon army.

As for th 5 scouts facing your army bit. Well fine it would actually be 10 scouts and 2 landspeeders and as I use them in conjunction with Pedro Kantor they get 4 attacks each as does the PF weilding Sarge. If they go after you tanks yes some will die to the flechettes (one average 1) but that is still 4 auto S8 and hits and 3 auto S6 hits on rear armour, your tank is still dead. If it is just the broadsides and hammerheads on the table I'd probably just go for the tanks gauranteed kills and are more of a threat to me that the broadsides. You then have 4 targets for your broadsides (assuming the 6 lascannons and 4 combi-meltas in range have not tanken them down or in the LCs case couldn't see them) to go after plus your kroot (if they are still around). Remember NOTHING would be coming on from reserve in turn 1.

Trust me against my army with Tau you either have to castle effectively with your kroot or deploy nothing or you lose every time unless the dice gods decree fail on me (which I'm sure we've all had in the past). Deploying nothing is fraut with difficulty for Tau as they have no way of bringing on mass reserves meaning the army turns up peicemeal and they lack the mobility to avoid me (unlike say eldar who can come on and move 36" away). Hence why Casstling is your only viable option hence why you need units of 10 kroot to protect yourself.


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3 Broadsides 2 Shield drones right? Here's the maths:

5 BP shots = 1.33 wounds = no failed saves.

20 attacks = 13.33 wounds = 2 dead shield drones.

Your 6 attacks = 3 hits = 2 wounds = 1 dead scout.

Sarge 4 attacks = 2.66 hits = 2 dead Broadsides = you've lost combat by 5 meaning your leadership is 1!!! You are running and either swept (as my I is 2 better) or you're of the table.

Heck lets assume both the wounds went on your broadsides 1 on the team leader one another broadside. Giving you every possible advantage (not to mention nearly 300 pts of squad against my 100). Still only 1 scout dies, PF hits both shield drones so you pass 1 invulnerable save. You've still lost combat by 2 so your leadership is 4! Guess what you're still running and still dead.

First, not every scenario got you the midfield head-start as you expected. Second, skimmers are skimmers. They can move all the way through but what they can't is landing on any difficult/dangerous terrains. With your straight-line charge logic in my mind would it be any difficulties for me to arrange the deployment just to deny your comfortable landing?

I am not expecting yours to be a perfect plan and I see from the very beginning how unbalance your tactic is. And if I may say, this whole discussion here is not about your alphastrike at all. It's about Kroots work better in horde with shaper or as minimum-size passive meat-shield to drag the leg of your alphastrike. Oh wow if you didn't remind me I nearly forget. Why I need to think in your logic. What I am thinking about is Kroots horde that can work better than none in general conditions; and what you argue is only one specific scenario of your choice that couldn't convince me even then. I've been tricked into putting myself into default disadvantage side of argument by accepting your set-up scenario. Oh wow. Thanks for reminding me.

It matters. It matters every point for a Tau army list under 2000pts. If it's not for this reason I wouldn't even care about Kroots, and that's my way, always. But what I see here is I can do better than the worst that being suggested. And I offer MHO of a still bad but at least better way to use the available source. I don't even have to prove I can win anything using this method. I just need to prove that it works better than the other way, that's all. Alphastrike is too specific and too unbalance a list that I don't even to confront directly from the beginning. But I still took the burden of the argument. Because I don't believe such a list could hurt a bit. Anyway.

We both agree using them for CC isn;t a great option so why plow points into that option to just make them OK?

You ask. Because comparing to the 10-man no Shaper Kroots squad they have a better chance to stand longer in face of superior enemy like Tac SM, they can put up a better fight as speed bump or meat-shield. All in comparison.

You stop my army dead to the loss of 20 kroot and I'm now sat in rapidfire range of all your guns with what amounts to a paper cannon army.

You stole my script. Because as you said, 20 kroots can. 10 can't.

Better than the worst, that's all.

Now come to entirely another thing that way off the topic above, that you raised up in the process. Alphastrike on Tau force. I'll continue on with you on this too, although it's nothing about what we argued initially anyway.

You didn't address the last two sentences of my last post at all. Would you be kind enough to go back and address that?
I acknowledge the fact that you are actually having two speeder storm and dedicated to use them in alphastrike. Fine I find your initial post, that's a 1750 list, and realizing that how "threatening" the rest of your army are, I am more than willing to go with it.
What if you don't get the 1st turn? Outflank me? Fine I shoot all the rest of your army down in the 1st turn. How is that feel? Did you take that into your calculation?
Now giving you back your victorious 1st turn, what make you think Sarge can kill 2 Broadsides? With 2+ Sv (of themselves', in case you don't know) against 2.66 hits? And though my codex is not by my side right now I doubt the shield drones, taken as wargear, would even affect my combat result.
Same case with Hammerheads. What make you think you can shoot so conveniently? Decoy launcher don't count? BP useless.
The last... I definitely could and would kill your both speeder and both scout squads in the next turn. I know the rule no need for reminding me about no reserve in turn 1. Doesn't matter. All these things in rapid-fire range of FWs, not mentioning massive XV8s I always take.
With the Speeder Storm gone, I wonder what left in your list I have to worry about?

You stole my script. Because as you said, 20 kroots can. 10 can't.

But 2 units of 10 can acheive this far better than 1 unit of 20. My HF has to target as many as possibloe from the front unit leaving the rear unit unharmed. Then the 2nd heavy flamer has to taregt that unit. You have 2 break tests pass either one and my way through can be blocked pass 2 and my way through can be blocked by 2 different units which again I'll have to target seperately with other weapons.

Kroot are a meat shield I don't need them to stand up to tactical squads because the rest of mmy arm can do that. I need them to buy me time from alpha strikes. Again I have to point out I'm not reliant on straight line to get to you with the Landspeeders. 45" menas i can easily go round most things, I can if I wanted to stop in difficult terrain and take the difficult terrain test scouts still disembark 3" from the hull and can still assault a further 6" (or average 4.5" if they are in difficult terrain). Still no issue.

The point is you need kroot not just to protect you from landspeeder storm but from all alphastrikes. Be that drop pod marines with meltas. IG Vendettas/Valkyries fill with vets with meltas and plasmas. Heck even deep striking daemons. All these things can wreck you expensive effective troops on the turn they arrive if you don't have your kroot screen up. These are all examples of alphastrike armies. That is what you need kroot to guard you against.

A proper kroot screen (against my list I'd advise a min of 3 x 10 men units) absorbs the alphastrike that is so important to thse types of armies allowing you to then demolish at will the now faltered attack. Ifyou're not taking Kroot for that then I probably wouldn't bother taking them at all, except as a kroot hound delivery system for outflank attacks on the enemy objective/firebase (and even then only if you really like them for some reason).

To say the truth, your front-rear formation won't have any chance to work at all. Because the squad strength is on the minimum level and no Ld bonus provided by Shaper, both of 10-man Kroots squads are in their worst shape imagined/calculated to resist the risk of morale breakdown. As being expected, the front unit which took the hit of the 1st LSS HF would breakdown in no time if not being swept, well actually if they are NOT swept it works better for you, and your consolidation move next would route the front Kroots unit directly into the formation of the rear one. Link reaction: multiple unit assault. Then the rear unit would breakdown in no time just like the front one: same way, same chance. No difference. No block issue at all. And under this scenario of two LSS 3*10-man Kroots would still work out the same, if not for worse: even LONGER consolidation movements. That's why I said the 10-man squad couldn't even take the role of speed bump or meat-shield as you said. They are the real jump board, staged. How much time, if any they can buy you really?20-man squad with Shaper at least HAS their chance comparing to the 10-man squadto stand for the HF attack in the 1st turn or if under the effect of two HF, take too MUCH wounds to really cause the trouble of consolidation movement, and deny you the access to the further advance.

My codex is not with me right now so I can be wrong here but doesn't skimmer stop in DIFFICULT terrain need to take the DANGEROUS terrain test? And what I mean by "straight line" is as this is a skimmer we're talking about and to prevent the last moment chance to miss the charge you would fly right through all the terrains between you and Tau battle formations, right?

Okay now you are talking. DP with SM+Melta, Vendetta-chasis with vets+Melta, daemons... First I don't know how you include the effect of DS table in calculation. At least IMO 2/3 chance of having trouble delivering wanted force on spot is not that assuring, or as I understand in your list the librarian has a "position relay" something like that? So how you deliver the these "pathfinder"-role units into my line on the far end of table if I may ask? Second and more important... Can they ASSAULT on the turn they arrive? I don't know nothing about daemons but drop pods and Vendettas-chasis I believe don't have that rule like LSS. And that is fantastic for me. Tau has their all kind of countermeasures to ballistic threats, decoys or damage control; Unless you meltas got really close it would not be that big a problem really. (as it's the case to anyone) And I have the complete confidence in Tau long/middle range firepower that they would DEFINITELY outshoot anything you deployed on board during the first turn. If I understand right with my current knowledge, only LSS and LR-chasis have the potential to match up the standard of sufficient alphastrike; and to Tau manner of deployment even LR's delivering ability could be questioned. So, IMO LSS is really the only thing I worried about here, and BTW, it's the only one appeared in your alphastrike list.

And here I linked to the question you still didn't anwser: If you really choose to use LSSs and go for my main force, what are you going to use to counter the big bulk of Kroots and squads of Pathfinders? Don't see any as strong units in the list, as you said the sternguards are going in too... I don't know what you feel about that big a squad of Kroots lurking on your flank... But I don't think anybody would leave this potential threat unchecked. (same reason you came up with that exception that I DO really like them for pts and hits-sum reason ) And through this I already accomplish the goal you demanded: (I don't really care...) Falter the alphastrike and force enemy to change plan under temporary conditions. Though generally they are weak, who said Kroots are only good for eating bolts?

Yes all the kroot are going to the die, but I can't consolidate into your expensive units. Hence they get a turn to blow me away efore I can assault you. Without the Kroot I get to hit you with full force and you get mauled before firing a single shot. I'm not saying the kroot will survive or do well they are not supposed to they are supposed to get butchered by the alphastrike. The 20 man squad will get just as butchered even with their "saves" and extra Ld they'll just have cost you more points and since they are 1 unit removing them would be easier than removing 2 units. Also the smaller units are more likley to break from assault how would you feel if your kroot actually didn't run from the combat and my scouts get to wait until next turn to finish them off and then hit your army again and again without you having had a single turn of shooting at them.

As for the DS situation Drop pods don't really have a problem and there a thing call a locator beacon to remove all chance, whilst the Vendetta/Valk essentially pull the same trick as the scouts except they fire rather than assault. Then you have Blood Angels that only scatter 1d6" (and their Vanguard can still assault whebn they arrive) or Dante who doesn't scatter at all.

As for the infiltrating Kroot? I'm marines I'd honestly not give a carp about them, if I was using my fun army I'd just use them as a spring board to get my hammernators further up the field. If I was using my competitive army I'd just ignore them they're not a threat to any of my units. The only units they are a threat to in my army is the scouts (if they get the charge) which would mean coming through my sternguard, my objective would be held by tanks and more sternguard and your Kroot simply aren't a threat even in numbers of 20.

Most armies will happily take the chance to fire their rapidfire weapons by you placing your kroot so agressively (and/or flame weapons). In the modern game you can't simly avoid CC anymore so have to accept it will happen, likewise if you go 2nd you have to accept that the enemy can have multiple things in Melta range on turn 1 (2 Drop poding dreads with multimeltas is very common) so you have to protect yourself against that. Lines of kroot and a tightly packed formation force him to drop infront of your lines meaning he can't get that 2d6 pen on the first turn. Meaning Valks can't fly up to your suits and drop 4 plasma totting Vets in your face or 4 melta toting vets next to your Hammer head etc etc etc

As for skimmer and difficult terrain no the skimmer does stop at the edge of it it gets it's full move and only if it ends (or begins) it's move in difficult terrain does it take a dangerous terrain check. So in the scouts example the attack range of the scouts would not be compromised, it is just the skimmer might get immobilised where it lands. Also as I've repeatedly pointed out I'm not reliant on straight line to reach you if you've deployed a decent amount of your force I can probably afford to take a detour and pick up some redbull or heck go via scotlabnd and pick up a deepfried mars bar on way over before laying the smack down that's how much leeway I'm likely to have. Yes if you've deployed 1 solitary tank right in the corner then yes I require the straight line to reach you, otherwise I'm going to have plenty of movement to spare. But if that is all you've deployed (and it's not DoW deployment obviously which changes everything and just makes things worse for you; it almost seems like they decided they wanted 1 depoyment type that mean Tau couldn't possibly win) then I'm more than happy as you army will arrive in nice bit sized chunks for my army to eat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for how the locator beacon gets to your lines it is carried by Scout bikers who can scout move 24" along with the Storms. So that's how I get them to your lines, not quite the full freedom of LSSs but they are shooting rather than assaulting so don't need to be in BtB contact.

What? Why you can't consolidate into my expensive units? Where you plan to deploy this speed bump, half a table away from the other units? If it's so then you are really going on my road sir; that's exactly where my 20-man squad would go.
If you suggested

your kroot actually didn't run from the combat

then a must say first, for a 10-man squad's sake, you are risking too much on luck, second, if you really believe in the chance the 10-man squad didn't run then the 20-man squad would have a even better chance to keep their ground. It's not the universal rule that 1 unit is easier to remove than 2 unit. It could be the case for Tac SM, but as I already reasoned in the prior post, just the OPPOSITE for Kroots. Kroots' strength lies in quantity, I have said that before.

Continue on.

HQ
Varro Tigurius - accompanies Honour Guard
Pedro Kantor -
Honour Guard - 4 Guard, Standard Bearer, 3x Relic Blades

Elites
Sternguard - 10 Veterans, Lightening claw, Meltabombs, 2 x Heavy Flamer, 4 x Combi-melta
Drop Pod (accompanied by Pedro)
Sternguard - 2 x Lascannon

Troops
Scout Squad - Sniper rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo cloaks
Scout Squad - Combat blades, Power sword, Meltabombs
Scout Squad - Combat blades, Power sword, Meltabombs

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy flamer
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy flamer
Scout Bikers - Locator beacon

Heavy Support
Predator - Lascannon Sponsons

Okay now this is your the only list you posted yourself on this forum that I came across, and it's the only list match you description indeed.

First to deal with other little things, Vendetta-chasis, as you said, they fire rather than assault. Which means nothing special because every unit embark from any transport can fire. What matters to me is assault. And they don't. So never mind. I reserve on the unbalance issue of BA codex and still waiting for the results and feedback of playtests on them and even if I need to fight the BA all assault marine/DS theme army it would be entirely another story, way different from what we talk about here. Not to mention your list is not BA and you don't have these privileges whatsoever.

TH/SS termis? 2 DP dreads with MM? (not to mention my suspect that how "common" this gear really is) You don't have them in the list. Talking what. And nobody is that foolish to see termis around and still charge the Kroots headstrong towards them. At least not me. Same case happened with sternguard and Predator. I would just throw Kroots out of the list and get more XV8s if it's the scenario.

You are keep telling me your "competitive list" etc etc. That is why I ask you to stick a link of your list here before. And with you ignoring the request, I did it for you.

So you know what I think about you "competitive" list?

I don't give a for all your fancies of sternguards, scout biker with locator beacon, Predator and detour to Scotland to get mars bar or whatever. Why?
Let's just say I use this 1500pts list vs yours 1750pts, giving you the 1st turn and 250pts more force and all. Best luck on your two LSS and scouts and Locator beacon and DP sternguards and wreck the only Hammerhead and 2 Broadsides in each squad killed leaving the the other one running. All perfect scenario for you, all right?
My turn.
You realize what you just did? You don't?
You just stuck 2 out of your total of 3 objective takers way into my territory without ANY hope to reinforce them.
With my FWs with Devilfish XV8s eventually showing on the field, find your alphastrike task force exposed and vulnerable in the comfortable rapid fire zone. With markerlights on their foreheads even.
Puff.
Yeah I could lose all my Heavy Support slots in one turn... And make you you pay for them with the whole game.
Just read these on BoLS today:

Scoring Units have the following priorities in order of greatest to least importance:
Scoring Objectives.
Surviving.
Preventing enemy scoring units from scoring.
Destroying enemy units.

For the sole purpose of accomplishing the least important priority, you sacrifice all the other more important ones. And would lose game for that.
That's what I mean by unbalanced list.

That's not my list it is a very old list.

However I think you've completely misunder stood me here:

What? Why you can't consolidate into my expensive units? Where you plan to deploy this speed bump, half a table away from the other units? If it's so then you are really going on my road sir; that's exactly where my 20-man squad would go.
If you suggested

your kroot actually didn't run from the combat

then a must say first, for a 10-man squad's sake, you are risking too much on luck, second, if you really believe in the chance the 10-man squad didn't run then the 20-man squad would have a even better chance to keep their ground.

Yes 20 men are far less likely to run than 10. that si bad for you you wnat them to run you don't want them surviving that turn (beause they won;t sruvive 2) thus removng your chance to shoot at the enemy before you are in assault.

If you're kroot are half a table anyway from you main line then I wouldn't assault/alphastrike the kroot I'd ignore them and hit your expensive units first. In order for your kroot to act as a speed bump they need to be about 2-3" tops from your front guys hence you need them to break from that first turn of combat or the enemy is right on your lines and immune to your shooting (by being locked in assault).

You seem to be reliant on your opponent not assaulting you from outflank or on turn 1 and for him to not hit you with melta in turn 1. If your opponent is an imperial army and not doing any of the above then he's not being competitive and has a poor list.

That's not your list? I find it under your name sir and it seems the only list you ever posted yourself on the site and indeed it's really old but exactly match your description in previous replies. I couldn't help but to quote it here. It seems that you abandon it entirely, too bad. Now I couldn't help imagine what an SM army list with 2 LSS at 1500pts would be like. If you mean it's not THE list you are currently discussing on, then would you please post it up here for discussion's sake?

What I see here is that it's not I completely misunderstood you; it's that you ignore the whole argument basis from the very beginning: we're using Kroots with two different ways, under entirely two logic. I want to use them aggresively and take the maximum advantage of quantity and Ld to let them stand firm better than 10-man squad during the initial enemy shoot (if there is any)and charge into combat immediately, causing harrassment and chaos (who said they won't survive? and why you think it remove my chance to shoot; why I need to give up the chance to shoot out all the rest of your army, by concentrate fire on your alphastrike that already being dragged down by these Kroots?); You want to use them as meat-shield to absorb firepower and alphastrike impact passively and only expecting them to die or run.
Wait a minute here. What you just said sir?

In order for your kroot to act as a speed bump they need to be about 2-3" tops from your front guys hence you need them to break from that first turn of combat

If I place Kroots in front of the important guys only 2-3'' and they break as you expected... Then across this poor distance of 2-3'' you got to consolidate right into my expensive units and cause immediate multiple assault battle! That's what I mean by

Why you can't consolidate into my expensive units?

What's your argument's logic here?

If it's about outflank, I would previously know by going over your list before the battle and my first turn deployment would totally change and I would drop all the Kroots, as simple as that. DP/Vendetta-chasis 1st shooty army is the same case. And then it would be entirely another topic into "how Tau deal with all form of alphastrike (without Kroots, IMO)", not what we are talking about here "how to use Kroots to their moderate best possibility (if there is any)". Off topic sir.

Anyway you are not talking about IG army in the beginning right? You are so confident about LSS alphastrike. I know you are good enough not to do these off-argument quotes to strengthen your argument, sir. Am I right? Anyway IMO if a IG army really doing all you said in the face of a Tau army and trying to outshoot the 1st-place shooty army in the WH40k universe... I think then he's not being competitive. How many pts of 3 Vendetta+the melta Vets on them cost? I want to compare the number with a hammerhead and 3 broadside... Because I am sure it's the best you can get and more than sure you are gonna pay it all back by losing all your alphastrike force the next turn... Tau Fury!

Why you can't consolidate into my expensive units?

What's your argument's logic here?

The rules forbid you from consolidating into other units. So they consolidate forward and have to stand in front of your guns for a turn. You can then try to feed them your less important units (i.e. gun drones, FWs, Devilfish, maybe the lesser battlesuits) and hope you can ignificantly damage them in that turns shooting to turn the battle. If your kroot are further away from your main line than that then your opponent will just ignore them and hit your main line in turn 1 and it's game over...


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If it's about outflank, I would previously know by going over your list before the battle and my first turn deployment would totally change and I would drop all the Kroots, as simple as that. DP/Vendetta-chasis 1st shooty army is the same case. And then it would be entirely another topic into "how Tau deal with all form of alphastrike (without Kroots, IMO)", not what we are talking about here "how to use Kroots to their moderate best possibility (if there is any)". Off topic sir.

How can you remove things from your list once you;ve seen my list? What this is supposed to be about is how to use kroot effectively. There are 2 ways to use kroot effectively. You can use them in units of about 12 as FW replacements (not my personal choice) and keep them inside devilfish. The other way (the far more common and necessary use) is a meat shield to protect you from alphastrikes. The LSS is just one example it is probably the best alphastrike tool to use against Tau but it by no means the only one. You have a choice either you meat shield with your kroot or you accept whatever you deploy on the table is going to be assaulted in turn 1 or hit by melta/plasma, and all those things mean you can kiss those expensive units good bye.

This is why you have to stay away from the idea of swarm kroot and throwing points into them. They simply will not help the Tau enough in that sort of role. You claim you don't think I can get to you because you can hide from a 45" charge, but unless you're playing on an 8'x4' board or bigger that is simply not an option. You claim you will deploy differently to avoid out flankers, they have a 21" asault range from eth sides can you really affor to give up 42" of the board to avoid assault? If so I've already won as I've taken away one of your biggest strengths (mobility).