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Sherman. The March to the Sea campaign was one of the best examples of strategic maneuver anywhere. He was among the first to grasp the importance of 'Total War' and was ruthless enough in carrying it out that I'm sure the southerners on here will flame me for posting this, over 100 years later...

Furthermore, he had an amazing grasp of what the Civil War was going to be, right from the beginning, that far exceeded any of his contemporaries. Lee is a fashionable heroic losing general, while Sherman was a pragmatic bastard who really understood what was going to happen, and didn't shy away from what it was going to take to win the war. Near the beginning of the Civil War, he predicted casualty rates that had contemporaries calling him insane, yet by the end of the war, those estimates were close to what had actually transpired.

+1 for sherman, Yankees know how to fight a war.

I choose Moses from the bible. after leaving Egypt, the hebrews went on a 40 year rampage. Saking cities killing even the cattle, and leaving no stone in place. In one battle it's said the hebrews would gain the upper hand just by him holding up his arms.


10 all around for my man Moses

sexiest_hero wrote:+1 for sherman, Yankees know how to fight a war.

I choose Moses from the bible. after leaving Egypt, the hebrews went on a 40 year rampage. Saking cities killing even the cattle, and leaving no stone in place. In one battle it's said the hebrews would gain the upper hand just by him holding up his arms.


10 all around for my man Moses

That's not what they mean with having "the upper hand" .....

If we're doing bible generals, then respect to the guy who commanded an army made up entirely of left handed people. That's one army I'd join in a flash (in some kind of administrative capacity).

Flashman wrote:If we're doing bible generals, then respect to the guy who commanded an army made up entirely of left handed people. That's one army I'd join in a flash (in some kind of administrative capacity).

And Samson who killed a 1000 guys with a donkey's jaw bone

Haig.




Just kidding.

Albatross wrote:Haig.



Just kidding.

How did he get a statue in London? On bloody Whitehall as well...

Actually Haig wasn't as bad as modern thinking makes him out to be. Sure the Somme was a disaster and lives on as an expression in futility and incompetence but you have to consider that he technically did 'win' the Battle and certainly achieved what is often seen as his main objective of reducing the pressure on the French at Verdun.
By 1918 his 'Hundred Days offensive' achieved massively disproportionate successes in comparison to the larger French army and he was employing mechanised and Air support to great success frog-marching the Germans back towards their border and critically weakening their armies.

However I would still not rate him as one of the best Generals ever but he certainly does not deserve his modern legacy.

I can't really decide upon 'the Greatest General' as almost every great military command I can think of had a flaw.

Possibly Alexander the Great due to the legend that his conquests only ended because his soldiers were to scared to go beyond the corners of what they considered to be the world.

ok.. My nomination....

Saladin:
- fought during the crusades.
- United large tracts of the Middle East
- Captured Damascus
- Annahilated a Crusader Army led by Guy of Lusignan
- Orchestrated the Capture of Jerusalem
- Earned the respect of Richard the Lionhearted
- Was recognised as a model of chivalry first by Richard and later by much of Europe.
- Was honored as both a general and a leader by Wilhelm II of Germany
- Was offered a Salute of Respect by General Allenby when the Brits capured Damascus during WW1

@ yani

Re: Haig - I could win a battle if I had 620,000 men at my disposal and nobody was too bothered about seeing them again.

I accept your challenge Flashman! Meet me on the rugger pitch in half an hour with your men and we'll set to! 5th Edition rules, pitched battle agreeable? Capital!

Gwar! can referee!

Kaiser Wilhelm II

Edit: Because I can't spell kaiser or Wilhelm

CadianXV wrote:I accept your challenge Flashman! Meet me on the rugger pitch in half an hour with your men and we'll set to! 5th Edition rules, pitched battle agreeable? Capital!

Gwar! can referee!

Kaiser Wilhelm II

Edit: Because I can't spell kaiser or Wilhelm

Hang on, that's not fair. You only need 465,000 men for your side (if we're using the same army lists). I need more time for my recruitment campaign.

Ohh? against a well entrenched and experienced enemy who is approximately equal in number to you?

Also it's not really fair to say that no-one was too bothered about the 620,000 Allied casualties. The British Armies losses of about 400,000 were from the first wave of volunteers who were usually the fittest, most motivated and best educated of the civilian soldiery.

As I said the Somme is still a tragedy but it did bring significant benefits to the Entente namely relieving pressure on Verdun enabling a valuable stronghold to remain in French hands and damaging the German's who while having a slightly larger population than Britain was having to support operations against the Russians and the French.

Oh and how come you're comparing casualty figures? More than 620k British fought against more than 463k Germans, unless your suggesting that their were no survivors from the Somme?

Yep, my cunning plan is to advance all 620,000 men across the battlefield at the same time making sure they adopt a pace that is brisker than walking. Should by done by teatime.

EDIT - I am using Somme casualty figures because I figured I could win the same engagement with Haig's losses. All with the benefit of hindsight of course. Apologies also if you think I'm being flippant about the loss of human life. I understand that nobody, not even Haig, took these losses lightly.

Aghhh Apologies for the thread hijack :/

Egads! Advance ALL of them!?! At a brisk pace!?! TEATIME!!! We're doomed!

Now that's tactical genius...

Ive been a fan of this man for years. He was a great President, and was a bad ass General as well.

Andrew Jackson. He beat Indians good at Horse shoe bend. As well as beat the tar out of the English in the war of 1812 (I cant remember the numbers but it was pretty bad)
He marched with his men on foot from New Orleans back to Tennessee, even letting some of the more sick men ride on his horse. As well as paying all his men out of his pocket before the war broke out.
Then became the only President to pay off the national debt. He was a one of a kind in my book.

Well... Best General? All I can say... is this.

<_<
>_>

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

In all reality, I sez,

Eisenhower

Tactical Score: 9. I give Him props for Destroying the Nazi Regime in Europe

Tangible Score: 10. Ike had Something that most generals didn't: The uncanny ability to owrk with people. The man was able to smooth rifts between the Competing UK and US Generals, he had amazing people skills.

*cough* Sword, Juno and Gold *cough*

KingCracker wrote:Ive been a fan of this man for years. He was a great President, and was a bad ass General as well.

Andrew Jackson. He beat Indians good at Horse shoe bend. As well as beat the tar out of the English in the war of 1812 (I cant remember the numbers but it was pretty bad)
He marched with his men on foot from New Orleans back to Tennessee, even letting some of the more sick men ride on his horse. As well as paying all his men out of his pocket before the war broke out.
Then became the only President to pay off the national debt. He was a one of a kind in my book.

Jackson was a good general, but I sez he is guilty of treason (Supreme Court case Worchester vs. The state of Georgia)

Say that all you want, the man was arguably the best President period. And was a fantastic general.

Hmm after considering for a while I would have to say that I would rate Sir Francis Drake as the greatest war leader of all time.
He effectively laid the foundation for the Empire by his state sponsored piracy campaign against the Spanish. For the first time since about midway through Henry the 8ths reign England's coffers were in a healthy state and the expansion of the navy, that would take Britain to superpower status, started during this period. He effectively handled the Spanish during the Armada using the faster British ships to harry the lumbering Spanish galleons and initiating surprise attacks to great effect. It was he who 'singed the Spanish beard' at Cadiz and effectively was Britain's wall throughout the Elizabethan age. While not strictly being a General I think he deserves mention among the great military leaders.

@Flash
I never assumed you were being flippant about the Human cost. And sure with hindsight the Somme could have been far far more effective but at the time the best was made from a horrific situation.

Henry V.


Purely for Agincourt. His decision to kill most of his captives probably saved the day. A tough decision, but the right one - that makes a good general in my book.

Henry V, Rommel, Saladin, Genghis Khan.

I'm way too lazy to note why I like them, so feel free to Wikipedia them as you see fit.

How about good old George W?

Earned his command rank in the Brit Army then was elected to head the Continental Army in 1775.
Drove the brits from Boston, lost in NYC then took a dejected and almost defeated force into an enemy stronghold at Trenton.
Had his defeats but learned and corrected them.
Eventually won through to force the brits to surrender at Yorktown.
Made his own whiskey, beer and Ale.

Although I'm not privy to the historical nuances of the hows and whys, I've always thought Napoleon and Ghengis Khan were the greatest generals.

KingCracker wrote:Ive been a fan of this man for years. He was a great President, and was a bad ass General as well.

Andrew Jackson. He beat Indians good at Horse shoe bend. As well as beat the tar out of the English in the war of 1812 (I cant remember the numbers but it was pretty bad)
He marched with his men on foot from New Orleans back to Tennessee, even letting some of the more sick men ride on his horse. As well as paying all his men out of his pocket before the war broke out.
Then became the only President to pay off the national debt. He was a one of a kind in my book.

That thing ended up in a tie, no ones borders were enhanced, you lost more men than we did, and we managed to burn down each other's Capitol Building. Say what you want, but a President who lets the Whitehouse get burned down on his watch can not be called the greatest general ever.

I for one would like to nominate Admiral Ackbar, for his uncanny ability to locate and recognize surprise attacks and ambushes.

Ratbarf wrote:That thing ended up in a tie, no ones borders were enhanced, you lost more men than we did, and we managed to burn down each other's Capitol Building. Say what you want, but a President who lets the Whitehouse get burned down on his watch can not be called the greatest general ever.

Er, I think you are mistaking Gen. Jackson with James Madison who was actually the POTUS during the War of 1812. The White House was rebuilt and ready for Big Block of Cheese day by the time Ol' Hickory took up residence there....

Flashman wrote:Yep, my cunning plan is to advance all 620,000 men across the battlefield at the same time making sure they adopt a pace that is brisker than walking. Should by done by teatime.

EDIT - I am using Somme casualty figures because I figured I could win the same engagement with Haig's losses. All with the benefit of hindsight of course. Apologies also if you think I'm being flippant about the loss of human life. I understand that nobody, not even Haig, took these losses lightly.

Having troops advance at a quicker rate results in them arriving at the enemy lines piecemeal and exhausted. Contrary to popular myth, the majority of assaults in WWI succeeded in penetrating the enemy lines, including those at the Somme. The problem was command and control, as technology and operational control had not developed sufficiently to inform commanding officers where offensives had been successful so they could reinforce those positions*. The sad truth is that Haig like all generals of the day was greatly restricted by the scarce and poor quality of information he received from the front during operations.

Haig actually revolutionised war where he could, the British innovations in combined arms were not fully realised duing the Great War, but were a feature of all armies by the start of WWII. Like Monty, Haig was neither the greatest of generals nor the worst.




*Trains also made it far easier for the defender to reinforce weakpoints than for the attacker to reinforce them.

Orlanth wrote:Gaius Marius
Who turned the Roman army into a world stomping killing machine. So effective that all subsequent Roman generals mimiced his methods and he laid the foundations for what beceome the modern army once his logistical ideas were resurrected in the 17th century. His strategic and logistical legacy remains today.

Definitely Top 10.

Here's some more.
Lee-already mentioned but I'd push intangible to 10 and drop tactic to 6. His tactics were good but his understanding of his opponents was superior. His tactical advantages were two fold: Longstreet and Jackson.

Subotai (sp) Genghis Khan's #1 general and an absolute brilliant buttkicker. To fight Subotai means you're a dead man walking. I'd put this guy as the odds on favorite against Alexander in the world domination bowl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai

Alexander. Well enough said on that guy.

Napoleon. invented the-wait for it-Napoleonic strategy of combined arms. Kicked everyone's butt, except Mother Nature.

Shaka Zulu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka

Osman, effective founder of the Turkish Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osman_I

Tamerlane, perhaps the bloodiest in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur