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Simmer down chaps.. toy soldiers yeah ?

I think this does seem to be a bit half and half.

We've always played it that the kareen rule obly applied to non immobilised vehicles, just the term and the way the rule is written it struck as as it meaning the driver loses control and it veers off crazily... well..orkily.... as determined by the dice roll. BUt I can see how it could be read as being the blast itself moves the vehicle perhaps, it's ( in a GW rulebook !) not too clear.

Personally, if someone was to argue their version here, I think this is a nigh in ideal "dice for it" situation really.

@ Nos.

I believe you apply the "specific overrides general" wrong.
For reasons, see my earlier posts.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:See above post, you are still arguing about the same 4 words, and your understanding of its meaning, good day sir!

And you are still arguing frmo a lack of permission, which in a debate on rules based in a permissive ruleset is lacking something persuasive.

Here is the rule for Kareen!.

"3-4 Kareen! The shot sends the Trukk out of control. Move the Trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction (the Ork player chooses if he rolls a Hit on the Scatter dice). Then apply the Kaboom! result above. If the Trukk would careen into enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

You are given specific instructions to move the Trukk 3d6" in a random direction when a Kareen! result is rolled. I see this as giving explicit permission to move the Trukk, even if an immobilized result was previously rolled.

The part which says "as far as possible in a random direction", to me, does not mean a previously immobilized Trukk has a maximum distance of 0 to move. The rolled 3d6" is giving you the farthest possible distance and any models/terrain are the only limiting factor to its random move distance.

If it was just terrain and enemy models that stop it, the phrase "as far as possible" is not needed as the secondary clause covers that it stops in those cases. (read the rule while omitting the 'as far as possible line and it will still stop 1" away from terrain and enemy models) so while this may be a case of bad GW rule writing and while I like and very well my play with the house rule for kareen/immobilized, until it is added via errata, a strict reading of the RAW including the specific > general, leads to a ruling that an immobilized trukk does not kareen.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think that clause is needed. If that wasn't there then players would attempt to kareen though terrain or potentially tank shock enemy units.

I think the rule as I've described is RAI. Of course I can't pretend to know the designers mind. This is another classic example of mucky wording and is definitely something to determine on how to deal with pre-game.

I think then we agree Infreak, while I would like it if immobilized trukks could kareen, I expect not to have it in a tournament situation with strict RAW rulings, it is however something I think could easily be agreed on as a house rule, because its fun, orky and awesome. (and hardly ever comes into play because trukks pop like a grot in a powerklaw)

Infreak wrote:

"3-4 Kareen! The shot sends the Trukk out of control. Move the Trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction (the Ork player chooses if he rolls a Hit on the Scatter dice). Then apply the Kaboom! result above. If the Trukk would careen into enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

You are given specific instructions to move the Trukk 3d6" in a random direction when a Kareen!
The part which says "as far as possible in a random direction", to me, does not mean a previously immobilized Trukk has a maximum distance of 0 to move. The rolled 3d6" is giving you the farthest possible distance and any models/terrain are the only limiting factor to its random move distance.

If one was told that 'the trukk is moved 3d6 as far as possible in......' then yes you'd be right the trukk is moved in the fashion you want.

However we are told 'move the trukk as far as possible'

If an immobilized Trukk doesn't have a maximum distance of 0 that it's allowed to move what does it have?
How can everything eles in the game affect the distance the trukk can move but not the immobilized, how can you ignore that?

Also see the first point again - we are not forced to move the trukk we are effectivly told 'it may move as far as it's allowed' before a game mechanic such as immobilized, models, board edge, walls etc get's in ones way and stops you from performing the action.

Fizzywig wrote:If it was just terrain and enemy models that stop it, the phrase "as far as possible" is not needed as the secondary clause covers that it stops in those cases. (read the rule while omitting the 'as far as possible line and it will still stop 1" away from terrain and enemy models) so while this may be a case of bad GW rule writing and while I like and very well my play with the house rule for kareen/immobilized, until it is added via errata, a strict reading of the RAW including the specific > general, leads to a ruling that an immobilized trukk does not kareen.

IMO, that phrase is there so that players cannot try to move less than the amount rolled. Without it, I think it would be RAW legal to move the trukk less than the full distance, in order to (for instance) prevent a charge on the disembarked Boyz.

Yes a kareen can affect a an immobile trukk.

This represents getting blown UP and around, random direction.

Those of you house ruling it to not affect immobile are missing out on a fun and intentional part of the rules.

PanamaG wrote:Yes a kareen can affect a an immobile trukk.

This represents getting blown UP and around, random direction.

Those of you house ruling it to not affect immobile are missing out on a fun and intentional part of the rules.

Except that what YOU are doing is a House rule.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Fizzywig wrote:If it was just terrain and enemy models that stop it, the phrase "as far as possible" is not needed as the secondary clause covers that it stops in those cases. (read the rule while omitting the 'as far as possible line and it will still stop 1" away from terrain and enemy models) so while this may be a case of bad GW rule writing and while I like and very well my play with the house rule for kareen/immobilized, until it is added via errata, a strict reading of the RAW including the specific > general, leads to a ruling that an immobilized trukk does not kareen.

IMO, that phrase is there so that players cannot try to move less than the amount rolled. Without it, I think it would be RAW legal to move the trukk less than the full distance, in order to (for instance) prevent a charge on the disembarked Boyz.

to be allowed to move less than the 3d6 rolled the wording would say "up to 3d6" with it saying the trukk is moved 3d6 that says you cant move it less than 3d6 unless the later clauses come into effect.

when rolling for fall back movement you cannot move less than the distance rolled, you must move the full distance, same principle.

To me, the as far as possible doesn't interact with immobilized in the way some of you are trying to say. If immobilized meant that it now moves zero, and therefore it can't move 3d6... well normally the trukk can't move 3d6? So let's say you embark troops, and later in the turn you get a kareen, can you not move that far because normally it could only move 12 inches? That seems a bit absurd. Then what, do you move it 12?

Gwar! wrote:

PanamaG wrote:Yes a kareen can affect a an immobile trukk.

This represents getting blown UP and around, random direction.

Those of you house ruling it to not affect immobile are missing out on a fun and intentional part of the rules.

Except that what YOU are doing is a House rule.

No I am doing what the rules say.

Except where they say "It may not move for the rest of the game.".. funny that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It does not apply.

An immobilized trukk may not move, and the kareen rule just states it moves as far as possible. If you cannot move at all your value for "as far as possible" is zero.

This is very different to something being moved.

Specific vs general is applied here in that immobilized Trukks are more specific than the general rule fir trukks,and therefore need specific language to override the brb Immobilized rules.

yeah i would have to agree with this statement - maximum possible distance of an immobilised vehicle is 0".. however i am cosidering allowing KAREEN if it occurrs in the same round/turn of shooting

PanamaG wrote:No I am doing what the rules say.

Please show specific permission to overide the Immobilised result which states you MAY NOT MOVE.

Infreak wrote:Here is the rule for Kareen!.

"3-4 Kareen! The shot sends the Trukk out of control. Move the Trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction (the Ork player chooses if he rolls a Hit on the Scatter dice). Then apply the Kaboom! result above. If the Trukk would careen into enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

You are given specific instructions to move the Trukk 3d6" in a random direction when a Kareen! result is rolled. I see this as giving explicit permission to move the Trukk, even if an immobilized result was previously rolled.

The part which says "as far as possible in a random direction", to me, does not mean a previously immobilized Trukk has a maximum distance of 0 to move. The rolled 3d6" is giving you the farthest possible distance and any models/terrain are the only limiting factor to its random move distance.

How do you loose control over an immobilized vehicle? Especially AS FAR AS 3D6, from standing still?!
Sure, if a battlecannon fired at it, it might bounce that far, but a bolter-ish weapon?!
And if the argument that it explodes that far, the "Kaboom!" result is applied AFTER moving the truck, not before moving it.
"The shot sends the Trukk out of control" seems more to me like a flat tire, broken steering, wounded driver etc.

ChrisCP wrote:Except where they say "It may not move for the rest of the game.".. funny that.

Hur funny that!

Quote the rule and see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alienfood wrote:

Infreak wrote:Here is the rule for Kareen!.

"3-4 Kareen! The shot sends the Trukk out of control. Move the Trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction (the Ork player chooses if he rolls a Hit on the Scatter dice). Then apply the Kaboom! result above. If the Trukk would careen into enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

You are given specific instructions to move the Trukk 3d6" in a random direction when a Kareen! result is rolled. I see this as giving explicit permission to move the Trukk, even if an immobilized result was previously rolled.

The part which says "as far as possible in a random direction", to me, does not mean a previously immobilized Trukk has a maximum distance of 0 to move. The rolled 3d6" is giving you the farthest possible distance and any models/terrain are the only limiting factor to its random move distance.

How do you loose control over an immobilized vehicle? Especially AS FAR AS 3D6, from standing still?!
Sure, if a battlecannon fired at it, it might bounce that far, but a bolter-ish weapon?!
And if the argument that it explodes that far, the "Kaboom!" result is applied AFTER moving the truck, not before moving it.
"The shot sends the Trukk out of control" seems more to me like a flat tire, broken steering, wounded driver etc.

Read the thread before you fire away with posts.

The trukk is being blown in a direction. If you think a trukk that gets blown up starts DRVING on all four wheels then you have a poor imagination.

PanamaG wrote:

The trukk is being blown in a direction. If you think a trukk that gets blown up starts DRVING on all four wheels then you have a poor imagination.

Please enlighten me, and give me a page number, where it says that the Trukk is BLOWN in a direction.
Perhaps we have different opinions of what suitable imagination is..
Or perhaps you might tell me how the heck a lascannon shot fired at the front of a Trukk, makes it jump 18" AHEAD..
If anything, it should move backwards..

The rulse doesn't state ANYWHERE, that an explosion occurs and therefore sends the vehicle in random direction.

Of coure not I am giving you the fluff explanation as to why it is OMG POSSIBLE (!?) for an immobilized vehicle to move.

Just because it is immobile does not mean it is cemented and padlocked to the table.

You guys can argue fluff reasoning all you want, but it's about as useful as a tit on a bull. Blown in a direction, engine suddenly comes to life, blown tire, it all doesn't really matter in the end. Imagine what you will, but it's what the rules say that matters. Lets not all get caught up in a fluff war here.

When I get home I'll post, verbatim, what the immobilized result says. Unless someone else beats me to it. You know to help keep this whole debate on solid ground.

I'm not asking you to give me a full explanation, just give me a page number so that I can look it up for myself.

PanamaG wrote:Of coure not I am giving you the fluff explanation as to why it is OMG POSSIBLE (!?) for an immobilized vehicle to move.

Ah so not the rules then.
Because as you know the rules say "It may not move for the rest of the game." and "Move the trukk 3d6 as far as possible" Oh my trukk happens to have suffered an Immobilized result it "may not move for the rest of the game." shucks.

So yes if you are going to argue that fluff-wise it's possible for a immob trukk to 'fly in a random direction' then yes I agree with you.
But if your trying to say that if I follow the rules all my immob trukks have a better than 50% chance of moving significantly closer like you know over 10" then yes if I ever get my life back from under my job and study I'll play you with my Orks

@Alienfood: Page 61.

ChrisCP wrote:

PanamaG wrote:Of coure not I am giving you the fluff explanation as to why it is OMG POSSIBLE (!?) for an immobilized vehicle to move.

Ah so not the rules then.

Yes in the rules.

People are houseruling that it cant because "omg immobile vehicle cannot be moved its glued to the table" so I am giving you the opposite side of the coin, why it could.

Because people are basically saying "well I dont see how kareen could make a trukk move when its unable to drive anywhere" and other unimaginitive stuff.

Well, that "houseruling" has more support in the rules, than your version of it.

The rule states that the vehicle moves, and states that it moves “as far as possible”. In the case of an immobilized vehicle, “as far as possible” = 0”. There is actually no conflict between these two rules, which is when you get into the evaluation of which rule is more specific, to determine which trumps which by the “specific vs. general” standard.

As for a fluff evaluation, the rule states that you move the trukk a random distance in a random direction. You could easily explain/rationalize this either as the force of an explosion propelling it, or as the vehicle’s guidance/driver being impaired and the vehicle moving under its own power. However, the phrasing of the rule, “The shot sends the Trukk out of control”, indicates clearly that it is the latter. Which jibes perfectly with Immobilized preventing the movement.