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lord17c wrote:orks are not a bad group. Their troops just are meant to do one thing, assault OR shoot, not both. Unlike marines orks dont have the 4/4 for ws and bs. We can shoot, but it requires alot more focus then the SM does. We can be assaultive, but requires us to focus on the roll, we cant multitask. I guess that would be the biggest weekness we have.

This is not true. 180 points' worth of Shoota Boyz will reliably hit/wound 50% more often than a squad of Tactical Marines. And 24 Shootas+PK Nob will wreck any non-elite CC unit on the charge, including even many elite CC units.

Orks lack S8+ AT shooting, but for low-strength anti-infantry they cannot be beaten for volume of fire. Shoota Boyz will shoot dead just about any equivalent points infantry unit.

VoxDei wrote:Your lucky if your only out numbered 3:1 by a single unit of orc troops vs your whole army.

Looks at 1500 pt force of 41 models and wonders how I seem to alwys win or draw. Especially when regularly outnumbered by marines.

My regular marine opponent outnumbers me with a pretty elite army (bikes, termies etc) but he hasn't beaten me in quite a while. If your outnumbered your troops are usually better and you use tactics* along with the fact that they can't bring their full army to bear at any one time to your advantage.


*It also helps when 1/6 of your force is vehicles and only 6 models don't go in vehicles or are vehicle drones themself.

Ive got a better idea....1500 pts....

An inquisitor army made entirely of GK........
vs......................



375 IG conscripts





GK would probably win. So it is a fair fight. When they outnumber you 125:10. Problem solved.

The GK would lose horribly in that game.

assuming that the guardsmen were able to FRFSRF to bear. thats nasty.

GKs pwn guard in CC. guard pwn at range.

They don't need FRFSRF. Assuming each conscript gets off one shot per turn, (which should account for Shrouding, some models being in range to double tap, some not, some not at all), 325 conscripts deal more than thirty wounds. GKs simply can't afford to lose an entire squad every shooting phase.

And I would like to point out that conscripts are probably the least points-efficient infantry unit in the Guard codex.

true, BUT no half way decent Grey Knight player is going to put his PAGKs in the position of being double tapped by large quantities of lasguns.

Lasguns are the deadliest weapon in the warhammer 40k universe.

Fear the Flashlight.

VoxDei wrote:You think SM are bad? You should try Tau. Tau doesn't have much of a troop choice so your armys are mostly elites and heavys. Your lucky if your only out numbered 3:1 by a single unit of orc troops vs your whole army.

Amen to that, but try a Dark Angels army, you are lucky if you're ONLY outnumbered 4/5/6:1. I've had some trouble keeping hordes under control with so little fire volume and even less templates.

When I play my blood angels against armies that are vastly larger than my own force I tend to try and setup in a more compact group towards on side of the table to keep the other forces more spread out so I can use my whole force against just a fraction of the others, and work my way down towards the other table edge. This works well until you go up against someone who has alot of plates to drop on you.

Grey Templar wrote:true, BUT no half way decent Grey Knight player is going to put his PAGKs in the position of being double tapped by large quantities of lasguns.

Lasguns are the deadliest weapon in the warhammer 40k universe.

Fear the Flashlight.

But you can't get into CC without putting yourself into exactly that position because you don't have rhinos or jump packs.

KingCracker wrote:ooking at the table, and getting nervous from seeing that many Orks, is going to ruin the way you think during the game. Ive always said that half the game is getting into your opponents head ... If you get a good shooting phase your going to drop so many Orks in a single turn, that in most cases it shakes the Ork player. Its hard for an Orky player to lose 20 or so Orks in one turn and not panic a little.

Exactly.

Horde fighting is a game of psychology as much as it is numbers. Often spamming crappy units isn't points:firepower efficient, so if you're doing it, you're assuming that you'll gain more in psychology than you're loosing in efficiency.

The thing is, though, it works both ways. You look at all of those dudes and something in your brain starts to sweat. On the other hand, the same thing happens to the horde player once they start taking casualties. Here are two great examples:



In this case it was me and a green tide against them. Once this hit the table our opponents basically pooped themselves. They got so scrambled they didn't move anything and didn't know what to shoot at. The opponents were swept off the table by turn 4.

In this case, our list got them to freeze, and we won handily.

Meanwhile...



This was a single turn of gunfire against a foodslogging eldar player. Once he lost over half of his models in a single turn, I could tell he was done. He blindly charged his units forward after this point and was summarily ass-handled. He conceeded by the end of turn 4.

In this case, once he started taking casualties, he also froze, and just let the weight of his advance take him forward on autopilot. These models kept on moving, but tactics were just as fast out the window.

I guess the moral of the story is that when one player puts down a horde, the game becomes slightly less one of tactics, and more like a giant game of chicken. The horde player wins if he can make his opponents flinch before he looses enough guys to make him flinch, and the opposite is true if the horde guy just has too much blood on his hands too fast.

As such, the way to defend against hordes to to cause a shocking number of casualties in a very short period of time. Bring a few whirlwinds and then, once they get close, step forward out of cover to get 12" bolter shots when they're still far away. Three tac squads of bolters are going to put down roughly 20 boyz in a single turn - something which, in addition to other damage might well be too much for the opponent, especially once the remainder start bouncing off of power armor.

I would say its perfectly fair, Orks have numbers and can be brutal its true, but its not as though there aren't ways to deal with them. While a true Ork horde list can have as many 180 Boyz (Potentially more but then you cut down Power Klaws) and thats at a 1500 point list, its not as though Marines can't deal with that, its remarkable how template weapons (large blast, blast, flamers) absolutely eat Orks. I've had many cases of my Orks being blasted to death, or reduced to the point where they were no longer effective versus the enemy. Some marines can even deal pretty effectively with the Orks, Space Wolves are excellent at it and can seriously reduce a strong unit even when they are assaulted. Blood Angels can similarly field some nasty units that just eat the competition. Hordes can be devastating with the numbers they bear, but all armies have the potential to severely reduce those numbers before any assaulting begins. Vehicles work well versus hordes, and rhinos can be used to engage select elements of the army and move out to a better position if they are going to be overwhelmed.