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Soladrin wrote:They also told me that for some reason Muslim Immigrants hold much closer to their religion then those back in their homeland.

THAT...RIGHT THERE.....

Carefully interpret the full rammifications of what that one statement says about those living inside your country.

WHY would they hold closer to their religion in a foreign and perhaps hostile place than in their homeland?

Hell if I know, Religion is beyond me. Couldn't do it if i tried.

WarOne wrote:

Soladrin wrote:They also told me that for some reason Muslim Immigrants hold much closer to their religion then those back in their homeland.

THAT...RIGHT THERE.....

Carefully interpret the full rammifications of what that one statement says about those living inside your country.

WHY would they hold closer to their religion in a foreign and perhaps hostile place than in their homeland?

I question the validity of truthfullness of the statement at all. What are their home countries? It's unlikely that they hold to customs stronger than they would in native saudi arabia or pakistan. Even more moderate countries like turkey tend to follow scripture stronger than muslim expats that I have known.

Well, I'm speaking form personal experience and what a few Muslim friend's told me. I'm not gonna waste my time of convincing you of the truthfullness of this statement cause well.... it's you and you have your reputation.

People try to hold on harder to something when they think they may lose it.

Soladrin wrote:
People try to hold on harder to something when they think they may lose it.

Perhaps because their current place of residence appears to be trying to take it away?

Yep, because Catholicism is still the main religion in my country.

Heck, we even have a Christian political party (christen unie) these days.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, or if you truly don't appreciate the irony of your statement.

Soladrin wrote:

sebster wrote:

Soladrin wrote:I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

So what you're saying is that you believe a wildly varied religious group with a billion members from the western edge of Africa to the eastern edge of Asia has some inherent character that makes them resistance to change.

How many muslims have you personally met, that's caused you to form this opinion? How does this inherent muslim character differ from that of any other group of immigrants that have come to countries in the past, and had the exact same charge laid against them?

Why would I be mentioning other immigrants? That's not what this thread is about. Don't put words in other peoples mouths would ya?

I base this on the fact that the situation has only gotten worse over the years.

And I've met plenty of them, and some are even good friends of mine, and they agree. They also told me that for some reason Muslim Immigrants hold much closer to their religion then those back in their homeland.

Mine say the same

Soladrin wrote:Why would I be mentioning other immigrants? That's not what this thread is about. Don't put words in other peoples mouths would ya?

You need to read more carefully. I never said you made any claims about other immigrants, I don't know where you got that from. I said that the charges being laid against Muslims right now are the same as the charges made against other immigrant groups in the past. Obviously the charges laid against other waves of immigrants weren't the same, you likely weren't born when the Irish first landed in New York.

And I've met plenty of them, and some are even good friends of mine, and they agree. They also told me that for some reason Muslim Immigrants hold much closer to their religion then those back in their homeland.

And I'll tell you that trying to assign a single characteristic to all Muslims, whether they're from Turkey, Nigeria or Bangladesh is ridiculous.

This has nothing to do with the inherent nature of Muslims, and a lot to do with people in a strange land clinging to the familiar. It happens when people backpack, let alone when they pick up their families and move to a new country. But what is unfamiliar to the old generation becomes home to the second and third generations.

The same complaint has been made against every wave of immigrants (you ignored my point there to make some silly complaint about me putting words in your mouth) and will happen with every future wave. And people will complain about the new lot, that they're different and won't because of some inherent characteristic that makes this wave different. And they'll be wrong, every single time.

If they don't like it get the feth out?

Europe's deal with the devil to have cheap labor is coming home to roost. You can't have an immigrant workforce without the customs of the immigrants coming into play. Did you really think there would be no fallout from bringing in millions opf immigrants who don't know what democracy and western civilization is?

There are only 16 million Muslims in the entirety of the EU, which has a total population of a little over 500 million.

dogma wrote:There are only 16 million Muslims in the entirety of the EU, which has a total population of a little over 500 million.

Be quiet, those 16 million are destroying european culture. Not the spanish or the Grecians. It's the muslims.

I think my favorite thing about this thread so far has been the subtle use of "love it or leave" argumentation in the context of a point about democracy, and Western Civilization. Two things which include civil dissidence, and legislative change.

Its really quite wonderful, honestly.

Frazzled wrote:If they don't like it get the feth out?

Because debate over social policy is a desired element of Western society. Because the freedom to live without impacting the lives of others is a desired element of Western society. Therefore, engaging in debate about policy over a law which might restrict people from doing something that doesn't impact anyone else is a core part of the political process.

But that's not exactly an unknown thing, so at this point we really have to wonder what prompted you to make such a ridiculous statement.

Europe's deal with the devil to have cheap labor is coming home to roost. You can't have an immigrant workforce without the customs of the immigrants coming into play. Did you really think there would be no fallout from bringing in millions opf immigrants who don't know what democracy and western civilization is?

Yes, it is an inherent and unchangeable characteristic of the Muslim brain that they cannot understand Western civilisation. I think it's to do with the sloping brow.



Oh, and you know how I keep pointing out in these threads how the legislation against Muslims has nothing to do concern over full face veils or minarets or whatever, and is just about exerting control over the scary, scary Muslims... just consider how quick this thread went from being about how Muslims can't become part of a Western society.

Oh, and you know how I keep pointing out in these threads how the legislation against Muslims has nothing to do concern over full face veils or minarets or whatever, and is just about exerting control over the scary, scary Muslims... just consider how quick this thread went from being about how Muslims can't become part of a Western society.

Those pitch colored minions of Set will be the end of the good nation of europe. Mark my words.

sebster wrote:
Yes, it is an inherent and unchangeable characteristic of the Muslim brain that they cannot understand Western civilisation. I think it's to do with the sloping brow.

Smithers: Uh, sir, phrenology was dismissed as quackery 160 years ago.
Burns: Of course you'd say that: you have the brainpan of a stagecoach tilter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Those pitch colored minions of Set will be the end of the good nation of europe. Mark my words.

The Muslim conquests never ended, they just switched tactics.

Sadly, I've heard that uttered in the course of serious debate with a PhD educated man. It pretty well ensured that I'll be staying away from GWU in the course of my future.

I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

So criminalise the fethers doing the forcing and leave the women who want to wear the veil of their own free will alone.
Detestable law.
I have an idea why it might seem that immigrants, especially young immigrants, would cling to tradtions from their home country. Where I'm teaching we have a lot of first wave immigrant kids, living in the gakky part of the inner city. They're from middle class families where they come from, but have been transplanted into a working class school. This comes with a large amount of culture shock. You see the kids around you acting like maniacs, the people in your neighbourhood being lazy bastards and drug addicts (not everyone is OBVIOUSLY but I'm speaking from the perspective of an immigrant teenager.)
So you start to compare home to your new surroundings, and it comes up WELL short. People are rude, disrespectful, stupid, and lazy. So you start to wonder why. It's no great leap to think it's because they don't do what people do at home. I've seen it with Mongolian immigrants, romanian immigrants, polish immigrants, it's not just muslims. And it's fairly understandable really. A secondary effect is that poor english and going to school in an inner city shithole can have negative effects on your grades, so you end up with a crappy education. This makes you bitter.
I try to explain that the area they're living in isn't all of ireland. Some of them get it, but in fairness I'm one voice in the way of all the other evidence. I can see why it happens, and solving it is more complicated than making sweeping laws like this.

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

True, there are issues of choice, and the basic reality that believing a woman is so inherently desirous that she has to be covered head to toe to prevent leading men astray is pretty damn unhealthy.

But that doesn't mean the solution is banning women from wearing the veil in public, all you really do is stop those women going into public. Which in turn has nothing to do with these laws being put in place.

sebster wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

True, there are issues of choice, and the basic reality that believing a woman is so inherently desirous that she has to be covered head to toe to prevent leading men astray is pretty damn unhealthy.

But that doesn't mean you solve the solution by banning women from wearing the veil in public, all you really do is stop those women going into public. Which in turn has nothing to do with these laws being put in place.

Oh I agree with that, i never said i was supporting the law

They need to find the root of all the problems before you can do anything about it. Banning burqa's is just throwing fuel on the fire.

Da Boss wrote:So criminalise the fethers doing the forcing and leave the women who want to wear the veil of their own free will alone.
Detestable law.
I have an idea why it might seem that immigrants, especially young immigrants, would cling to tradtions from their home country. Where I'm teaching we have a lot of first wave immigrant kids, living in the gakky part of the inner city. They're from middle class families where they come from, but have been transplanted into a working class school. This comes with a large amount of culture shock. You see the kids around you acting like maniacs, the people in your neighbourhood being lazy bastards and drug addicts (not everyone is OBVIOUSLY but I'm speaking from the perspective of an immigrant teenager.)
So you start to compare home to your new surroundings, and it comes up WELL short. People are rude, disrespectful, stupid, and lazy. So you start to wonder why. It's no great leap to think it's because they don't do what people do at home. I've seen it with Mongolian immigrants, romanian immigrants, polish immigrants, it's not just muslims. And it's fairly understandable really. A secondary effect is that poor english and going to school in an inner city shithole can have negative effects on your grades, so you end up with a crappy education. This makes you bitter.
I try to explain that the area they're living in isn't all of ireland. Some of them get it, but in fairness I'm one voice in the way of all the other evidence. I can see why it happens, and solving it is more complicated than making sweeping laws like this.

Word.

Also, Michael Caine had the right of the Dutch.

How so?

Intolerance is a terrible thing.

Soladrin wrote:Oh I agree with that, i never said i was supporting the law

They need to find the root of all the problems before you can do anything about it. Banning burqa's is just throwing fuel on the fire.

Is there a fire?

sebster wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Oh I agree with that, i never said i was supporting the law

They need to find the root of all the problems before you can do anything about it. Banning burqa's is just throwing fuel on the fire.

Is there a fire?

There is always a fire.

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

Yeah, and there are also ways to say no. Sure, it may take a lot of willpower and being kicked out of the family, but it is your life.

Not at all naive, just don't care.

Dreadwinter wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

Yeah, and there are also ways to say no. Sure, it may take a lot of willpower and being kicked out of the family, but it is your life.

Not at all naive, just don't care.

There's a difference between not caring and not knowing.

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I don't see what the big deal with them wearing them is. I mean, they really are not forced to wear them by law in this country. They obviously do it willingly.

The only downside is that I don't get to see if they are hot or not. But the upside is, if they are an uggo, I don't have to look at them!

Well... that's kind of naive.. no offense... but there are other ways to be forced to do something then a law.

Yeah, and there are also ways to say no. Sure, it may take a lot of willpower and being kicked out of the family, but it is your life.

Not at all naive, just don't care.

There's a difference between not caring and not knowing.

Wow

Meanwhile, Australia has been going the other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqini

Sort of. Some of the time.