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That's what happens when a company decides to air their dirty laundry for all and sundry to see.

When a company decides to sue every tom, richard and harry that owns a website that discusses their product, people naturally take offence.

By all means, protect your IP; however, do not attempt to allege, "great and irreparable injury" when there is no way that the other party is benefiting from your IP. It's like putting recasters and discussion sites in the same classification; one is clearly illegal while the other is clearly fair use.

Well, to be fair, Curse did receive money from advertising on Warhammer Alliance. However, since that money would never have, in fact, otherwise gone to GW, I don't see the case.

I think the issue is that Warhammer Alliance is *registered* to Curse's owner under an alias, and Curse is making money from that alongside of the site originally having used the actual Warhammer Fantasy logo/typestyle.

That's still pretty shaky ground, since the warhammer font, as far as I can find, though I may be incorrect, is not copyright GW. Further, the site has slathered all over it the fact that it's not in any way related to GW or Mythic.

Since GW's case hinges on it 'confusing' people with it's resemblance to 'official' GW IP, I would suggest that the fact there are disclaimers all over, that you have to read to become a member...

I almost wonder if they got a C&D with the last batch, and it's only being taken to court now due to a development.

LOL Yes, it developed that GW found out they might have made money. Or Curse told them to go ahead, you've named a bank among the defendants. Who has more money for lawyers?

Here:

solkan wrote:It wouldn't be a lawsuit the internet without the opportunity for uninvolved bystanders to stand around, posturing and taking sides in a matter that doesn't directly involve them, right?

Here, fixed that for you.

On a side note, I find the "I'm above this fray" card is best played in threads one did not fan personally. You posted the complaint - what did you expect? 2 pages of people going "well, this is interesting, but not really any of our business, so let's move on"?

Oh that's weird. I frequented the Warhammer alliance forums for the couple of months I played Warhammer Online, as it's the closest thing it has to an official forum. I thought they did a bunch of interviews with the game devs? Looks like someone's had a falling out...

In an american court, they're going to have to prove damages. No damages = no lawsuit a judge will dismiss it before it even goes to trial.

This is mostly just legal posturing. GW probably issued a C&D and the defendants thumbed their nose at them. GW then filed the lawsuit; the difference between these defendants and the "mom and pop" websites that GW has been picking on is that this one appears to have the financial and legal means to show GW the door. I foresee a countersuit for court costs and legal fees in the future.

Hmmm...I wonder what geniuses at GW decided to sue the website that has the largest and longest running community support for WAR?

Maelstrom808 wrote:Hmmm...I wonder what geniuses at GW decided to sue the website that has the largest and longest running community support for WAR?

God only knows. It seems to me like GW is increasingly self destructive lately. It's almost like they're trying to drive away customers.

Then again, I've heard rumors that GW wants WAR to shut down so the license reverts but doesn't have the money to fight EA. But that's just the rumor.

The lawsuit states that it's the advertisements that the site was hosting that are why the lawsuit was being filed.

With the fact that the site owner was making money via referrals to the site courtesy of people using search engines to look for "Warhammer", it's iffy.

Is also possible that the site was hosting ads for places that were violating GW's online shopping policies.

Kanluwen wrote:

Is also possible that the site was hosting ads for places that were violating GW's online shopping policies.

Can't really see this or they'd be after DakkaDakka as well.

Nowhere that Dakka advertises actually violate GW's online shopping policies though.

Maelstrom and Wayland are the only two that would be iffy--and they're not violating the policies that GW has set down where they're based(the UK).

Kanluwen wrote:Nowhere that Dakka advertises actually violate GW's online shopping policies though.

Maelstrom and Wayland are the only two that would be iffy--and they're not violating the policies that GW has set down where they're based(the UK).

Good point; however, I'm not sure they could hold the defendants accountable if their advertisers are in breach. That's a fine point of law that I am unfamiliar with.

It's possible, given that the site's owner used false paperwork/identities to establish the site's credentials to begin with from the lawsuit's own wording.

Kanluwen wrote:It's possible, given that the site's owner used false paperwork/identities to establish the site's credentials to begin with from the lawsuit's own wording.

The problem is that in that case, they would really only have grounds for a suit if the site offered false information getting GW's permission to build the site, or were pretending to be GW affiliated. Since no such permission was granted and the site clearly labels itself as non-GW/Mythic, it's a very iffy legal point.

Well, see, the issue at hand seems to be that the owner of the site used false information to begin with, to seemingly conceal the fact that he's the owner and an employee of what became "Curse, Inc".

He was then making money when Warhammer Alliance began getting hits via Google, Yahoo, etc for "Warhammer" searches and Warhammer Alliance redirecting/advertising for Curse, Inc itself.

Yes, but making a warhammer review/discussion site and calling it 'warhammer' something is actually legal. Look at Beck v Eiland-Hall .

*headdeskslam*

That's not the issue.

The issue is that he was relying on traffic directed from search engines that were giving a hit on "Warhammer", and making money with his own company(Curse, Inc) from it.
GW has no problems with review/discussion sites.

If they did, Dakka, Warseer etc wouldn't exist.

They have a problem when those sites are making money off their IP/established brand name.

It's the same idea as the new energy drink down in Brazil/Argentina that's called "CocaCola".

You're piggybacking off another, well known brand and making money while you do it.

That is indirect benefit, not a direct benefit clearly attributable to any misconduct. They have to verifiably prove damages and I don't think Google is just going to tell GW how much Curse made off of any search hits; if the entire country of China doesn't scare Google, I doubt GW does.

They may be able to estimate how many hits were directed to the site from searches but there's no way they can arrive at a fiscal representation of damages resulting from any traffic. Since the site in question does not directly offer any goods or services in competition with GW; however their advertisers do. If that were the case, they could sue Yahoo and/or Google for allowing links to sites that sell GW goods on the same grounds as Google benefits, directly from any resulting clicks that take people to non-GW sales.

I'm sure Google would be willing to cooperate if a link between Curse's staff and the owner of Warhammer Alliance.

After all, it's very different when proving someone's making money off trademarked and branded material than trying to deny human rights to an entire country.

You're also forgetting, however, that as was the case with Blood Bowl--Games Workshop is also working to protect their interests in the companies they licensed their product to. They may not have been getting money directly from the hits going to, say, "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning" and its home page--but EA/Mythic would've been, and it would indirectly have been going to GW.

It would take a court order for Google to release any client's economic records. I am not entirely certain that, not being a party to the suit, if Google or any other search engine company, would be required to cooperate. It's not a criminal investigation so it's not like the police will be going to Google with a warrant.

Like I said, I am not convinced that GW will be able to prove damages to the extent needed for this to be pursued at a jury trial. I am fairly certain that this is legal posturing on the part of GW legal to force an out of court settlement since they obviously didn't get anywhere with a C&D.

Edit:
After I wrote this, I realized that Curse will have to provide their own records during discovery, at depositions so it depends on the records they kept in relation to any damages caused.

I believe they'll also need to prove that, in absence of Curse's website, that there would have been no damages at all; which means that they directly lost money as a result of some act on Curse's part.

If you are served with a subpoena you comply, even if it is from a civil lawsuit.

That doesn't make sense, since just by having the word warhammer on your site you'd get hits.

BTW: Warhammer Alliance's advertisers are Vonage and Progressive Auto Insurance. I don't see them competing with Games Workshop.

If advertising dollars are what's up in the air, why aren't The Warhammer Forum, Warhammer Vault, and any one of a dozen other sites with warhammer in their URL also named, since they're getting advertising revenue, as well, and some are not registered under the names of the company running them?

Warhammer Vault is run by IGN, warhammervault.ign.com and has ads, etc. The Warhammer Forum is at warhammer.or.uk.

A large corporation such as Google, or Curse on their behalf, could file a motion to quash or limit the subpoena duces tecum on the grounds that it is too invasive, burdensome, or the results contain information deemed to be trade secrets.

It's all conjecture anyway; but it's fun to try and remember all the legal mumbo-jumbo I haven't used in years.


Found this on Dozier Internet Law
"The Defendants are alleged to be using the “warhammeralliance.com” domain name to host a site which carries competing advertising."

http://dozierinternetlawpc.blogspot.com/
April 7 entry.

Dear GW,
It is clear that you have not properly trained your Rottweilers, as they have recently attacked your friend Curse without provocation. Therefore, I ask that you leash and, if necessary, muzzle them to keep them from harming your neighbors and other friends. (Sorry, did I say Rottweilers? I meant lawyers.)
Love,
Dave

LOL. Nice one.

Bumping this, since people seem to have missed it and are posting new threads about something that already has one.

WA issues a statement (sort of)

Quoted from Warhammer Alliance:

"Heya Folks,

For those of you whom do not know me, my name is Shelby Cardozo and arguably I'm the founder of Warhammer Alliance. I figured I'd pop out of the shadows and clear up some misinformation about the site, it's history, and my dealings with Games Workshop.

Lets rewind to 2004 and remember the old Warhammer Online that was canceled by Climax Entertainment. Well in late 2004, there was a Warhammer community that refused to die (WarhammerOnlineForums.com). Unfortunately however, the site admin for the WOF was on hiatus and slowly the site was having problems and the community was on the rocks.

Enter 2005 and Mythic Entertainment. It was early 2005, soon after my Imperator fansite was sunk that I offered to help out the WOFs. Specifically, I'd relaunch the site as Warhammer Alliance. The site was relaunched around August 2005 and believe it or not, the site had ads on it back then. Specifically, I knew that the site was going to get big and I knew that in order to keep the servers running when the site got big, that ad revenue would be required. So, the site was launched (with ads) and we all looked forward to a new Warhammer Online.

Things went fantastic. The community, the developers, we were all so excited. The site was growing and the community was having a blast getting excited all over again. Fast forward to late 2005 and an interesting phone and email conversation I had with Sanya Weathers of Mythic Entertainment and Erik Mogensen, the Licensing Manager for Games Workshop.

The topic of discussion, we didn't have a proper disclaimer at the bottom of the site. So, I worked with Sanya and Erik to ensure we met standards that all parties would be happy with. We settled on the same footer you see today. "This web site is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited or Mythic Entertainment." And an added a link to a longer disclaimer.

This footer and disclaimer was agreed to by Games Workshop, the Licensing Manager and Mythic Entertainment.

Things seemed to be going great. In fact Erik even registered here at the site and granted us a some interviews. Read that again. Games Workshop was helping promote the site by doing interviews with us back in 2006. Here is a link to Eriks first interview.

Now, fast forward to today.

Games Workshop is suing Warhammer Alliance. Now, I'm not a Rocket Surgeon, but this lawsuit smells like Greenskin dung to me. In the suit they allege that they just became aware of the site. But they were promoting it in 2006, 4 years ago?

You see folks, Warhammer Alliance, even today is a news site. The staff here do Warhammer news reporting, original news and commentary. In the same way that AppleInsider.com covers apple products, WarhammerAlliance.com covers Warhammer Online. This lawsuit is really just a gross perversion of trademark law and I hope that Curse puts up a fight.

But hey, that's just me. You guys are free to form your own opinions." -Shelby Cardozo, Founder, Warhammer Alliance.