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The Deathleaper fulfils multiple roles.

1. He can work wonders against small dedicated heavy weapons squads. Chances he will absorb some fire from that squad, but other units will be hard put to even see him. Next turn he charges and eliminates the threat.

2. He is our only means of psychic defense against hoods. Synapse is better all-round, but Deathleaper is great against Librarians.

3. He can contest objectives really easily in the last turn of the game. Potentially a game winner.

Negatives for the DeathLeaper

1.) 140 point elite slot. One less slot for hive guard, venomthropes, zoanthropes, or the DOOM
2.) 5+ save in CC, which is where the DL is supposed to excel
3.) only T4, so a single powerfist (in that same CC) or krak missile spells disaster. (yes yes they have to see him first to shoot him but still)

D.Leaper has weaknesses, the same way sly marbo has weaknesses. Unfortunately, marbo only costs about 65 points while the DL is more than double that. I don't think he is a terrible unit (I have 2 deathleaper models that i proxy as lictors, plus a lictor), But i have yet to field him in a game. I think Hive Guard and Zoeys are too important to miss out on.

Could you guys give me some more experience on using mawlocs? How many do you use? What do you target? I like the idea of starting him on the table turn 1 then burrowing. Also more of a rules question when he comes into play on a unit you still have to roll scatter right? How often does he scatter off his target and not get the template? Thanks!

@Flavius Infernus-Thank you for your very well though out and detailed reply. I agree about both the Hive Guard and the Termagants/Hormagaunts. This version of nids is not nearly as helpless against mech lists as the older dex and they are a more interesting advesary. It struck me while playing against them that their screening units and the way they need to combine fire was in some ways similar tactically to what I have to do with my Tau and Eldar armies. Not exactly the same but there is definitely an added tactical dimension to the army that I find challenging/ enjoyable.

As far as the dual Tyrant list, yeah, I agree. My Ninja Tau messes with this army in much the same way as your tactic does. Leting the other guy arrive first and the using a focused precision strike on the most vulnerable portions of their army can, "at times", be devastating.


About the DeathLeaper, I think that it is intended as a Synergy unit that the measure of its effectiveness may not be in the number of models killed but in how it disrupts your opponents. It is a Ninja that its mere presence can destroy the ability of a commander to lead. I think of the Leapers job is first to lower a key units leadership to its base by dropping the commanders and second, to play peekaboo the rest of the game by using its hide/ambush/Hit and Run ability on isolated and weaked units. I can see this ability to lower leadership being a pain for a Farseer using mind war and wreaking havoc on an IG HQ's ability to give Orders. Against other armies it would need to be teamed with the DoM against command units and deathstars. Then there is the ability to slow the enemy down in difficult terrain. I think that in time we will see the Death Leaper being combined with several units effectively.

Speaking of which, I know that it flies in the face of your Dual Guard strategy but, "What do you think of the Leaper, DoM, and Mawloc combo?". Do you think they can work well together and if so,"How would you use them, effectively?"

Again, I am enjoying metagaming with you...........AND everyone else.

One tactic that i did have particularly good luck with was embedding a Prime in a unit of termagaunts. Since the prime is a independant character he cant get singled out of the group the way the monsterouse creatures can, he's cheap, and with bone swords he makes an absolutly menacing CC fighter.

Has anyone had effective use of spore mines to deny your opponent somewhere safe to place his units during the set up phase. I have thought about using them for area denial. it would be especially effective in games that used the table quarters rule.

Spore mines are, for the most part, worthless. Any opponent with a vehicle can park it next to the spore mine to blow it up for no cost to themselves.

The best way to use them if you do take them is to deny enemy infiltrators deployment options.

I still don't understand all the attention the mawloc is getting. First you have to make sure lictors are around to make sure you don't scatter. Then when he hits there will presumably be a 4+ save on the target (opening up a can of worms I know). In my opinion a trygon is a far better buy. Multiple trygons appearing in your opponents deployment zone and practically negating all long range weaponry really shakes things up.

So...can someone tell me what all the fuss is about?

I'll have a look in your can of worms... where is this save coming from aye?

The fuss is it's an Ap2 large blast at Str6 it has the potential to kill anything bar 'liths and LR. In the couple of games I've played with them I've used 1 and 2 twice, I thought and played them in the same fashion as kommands. I think using just one provids a good where's it coming effect and the option to do it again turn 4 or 5 depending on combat resolutions is what actually makes them scary.

Trygons throwing up on you are scary thou....

And to mention gargoyles again - effective unit size 23-30? these guy can also kill anything one throws them at - I'm beginning to think they are good.

I'd imagine 1 or 2 Mawlocs would be useful in a deep strike heavy army. Something to dissuade your opponent from castling in a corner otherwise they're clustered army would be taking pie plates from the Mawlocs. I haven't tried it yet, though.

Hmmm, actually I hadn't thought of that. But if you read my first post in this thread I think that I have the rest of the bases covered. Castling up is one thing I hate when I use my DSing list.

The problem would be where are those points coming from? For a good DS list you need

- Interruption the turn you arrive (Paroxysm and Ymgarls)
- Can openers (zoanthropes fit the bill nicely. Ymgarls can also add their weight)
- Lethal units (trygons for me)
- More reliable reserves (hive commander)

This lot plus my mandatory troops takes me to 1500. Adding the mawlocs seems like a good idea, but fitting everything into the list seems difficult...

Flavius Infernus wrote:I only fought against an army with the deathleaper one time so far, so my experience is pretty limited. But I was underwhelmed.

Basically the deathleaper lowered my librarian's leadership to 8, which didn't have any real effect in the game since the librarian wound up not using any psychic powers that game anyway (null zone doesn't do much against nids that don't have the swarmlord). Then deathleaper deepstruck into my backfield--where I ignored him because my army was moving off in another direction anyway--and spent the rest of the game ineffectively plinking at a drop pod with his flesh hooks.

Maybe my opponent wasn't playing him in the best possible way, or maybe he's really designed to go against armies who do things like leave some static shooting guys standing in the woods at the back--not against mobile armies who don't just hang around waiting to be assaulted. But I was not impressed.

Seems like he was playing DL very poorly, considering he can ninja into reserve and return to the board next turn anywhere else. Any particular reason why he didn't?

I just started playing Nids, had my first game last night, and enjoyed them far more than guard. Played against DE, and while I spent most of the game learning all the rules for Nids I was getting a much better feel for them by the end. I lost, but only because we ended turn 5, I had a Pyro, 12 Horms and a Trygon in range of his last unit......which happened to be sitting on his objective.

I'm playing with a mishmash right now, basically bought what they had on the wall at my FLGS, but have an idea of where I want to go with my new bugs. Heres my list atm:

(370 pts) HQ : Hive Tyrant (Wings, Armored Shell, Hive Commander, Acid Blood, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, Toxic Miasma)
(220 pts) Troop 1 : Warrior x3 (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Lash/Bonesword, Deathspitter) - Mycetic Spore
(160 pts) Troop 2 : Hormagaunt x12 (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs) - Mycetic Spore
(160 pts) Troop 3 : Hormagaunt x12 (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs) - Mycetic Spore
(85 pts) Elite 1 : Pyrovore x1 - Mycetic Spore
(140 pts) FAST 1 : Ravener x4 (Devourers)
(80 pts) FAST 2 : Gargoyle x10 (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
(285 pts) HEAVY 1 : Trygon Prime x1 (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration)
(TOTAL : 1500)

What I learned (and I will appreciate any and all advice):
- Flyrant rocked, killed 2 units and tied up 3 more for the game, scared my opponent more than anything except for the Trygon.
- Gargoyles failed, mostly because of bad use and being outflanked by my opponent. Thinking more and outflanking themselves.
- Warriors.....I need more. Could have done well, but poorly played. Be better to drop them nearby in cover to hide that first round of being shot at. Swap for Shrikes?
- Pyro rocked. Functioned perfectly, hard to kill.
- Raveners performed ok, did a synapse bounce with them from the tyrant to the trygon, then dropped them out onto some enemies.
- Trygon. Need 2. Come up on opposite flanks.
- Hormagaunts were the star, my first troop dropped right in front of the enemy line. And died. Second troop dropped nearby in cover, and assaulted through 2 units and was aiming for a third when game ended. Rocks when they get rolling.

The "fuss" about the Mawloc is not his S6 pie plate, its the ability to push things around.

with clever positioning you can move a land raider 10"+ in a direction of your choosing, you can push troops out of cover to be assaulted by genestealers, you can slide that KFF mek battlewagon out of range of the other wagons. That is why you dont use the mawloc right away, you hold him till the moment you need him. If you are playing against someone who starts on the board and burrows turn 1 just to stuff in some S6 hits, be thankful that he is not using it to win the game on turn 5 by pushing your scoring units off an objective. Not saying that burrowing on turn 1 is bad all the time, but usually they will only get one good "push" before your opponent nukes them off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I only fought against an army with the deathleaper one time so far, so my experience is pretty limited. But I was underwhelmed.

Basically the deathleaper lowered my librarian's leadership to 8, which didn't have any real effect in the game since the librarian wound up not using any psychic powers that game anyway (null zone doesn't do much against nids that don't have the swarmlord). Then deathleaper deepstruck into my backfield--where I ignored him because my army was moving off in another direction anyway--and spent the rest of the game ineffectively plinking at a drop pod with his flesh hooks.

Maybe my opponent wasn't playing him in the best possible way, or maybe he's really designed to go against armies who do things like leave some static shooting guys standing in the woods at the back--not against mobile armies who don't just hang around waiting to be assaulted. But I was not impressed.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this.

DL is not good against mobile armies that can just ignore him, or armies that dont use psykers (you had one, you just didnt use him) and your opponent maybe could have used him better. DL is good, but like the Mawloc, its situational.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spore mines are, for the most part, worthless. Any opponent with a vehicle can park it next to the spore mine to blow it up for no cost to themselves.

The best way to use them if you do take them is to deny enemy infiltrators deployment options.

Spore mines are a great way to influence deployment. As you mentioned, any opponent can park a vehicle next to them at the start of the game, but look at what that does for you... you decided the placement of that vehicle.

you can also start them in a good field of view spot in or near cover, say where Long Fangs may want to deploy, that way 1. your opponent will not want to deploy his long fangs there and 2. your opponent will want to destroy those mines, either wasting a turn of shooting to do so, or by placing a vehicle there.

On that note, they are only really worth the points for a min sized unit, and only then if you cant find another spot to spend 30 points (or 60 if you are taking 2 units)

I've been following this thread and a few other tyranid threads with interest the last week or so.

After finishing up my demon army for now I've been thinking of what new project to take on. I settled on tyranids after a lot of thought.

I just picked up the codex and have been going over it for a couple days now. My first thoughts involve trying to overwhelm my opponent with a bunch of MCs in their face early in the game. I've had success playing demons and getting a GUO and three DPs into my opponent's lines and wreacking havok. I think that tyranids can do this even better.

I play most games at 1850 pts. I'm going to post my first list idea and hopefully you all can tell me what I'm missing/getting right.

HQ

2x hive tyrant, wings, adrenals, 2x TL devs. hive commander

Troops

Here is where I am having the most trouble deciding. For now I am thinking of going with 3x8 genestealers

heavy

3x trygon prime with adrenals and regen

The 2 tyrants give me +2 to my reserves, almost ensuring me my trygons deep striking on turn 2. Tyrnants move up to engage when trygons arrive and then the steelers move in from wherever they are hiding.

I think my opponet will have trouble dealing with 5 tough MCs in their face all at once and I can win the game based on good target priority decsions.

Genestealers are definately the way to go for a DS list. They add their weight nicely. However, consider a Broodlord or 2 to increase the survivability of your troops.

Razgryz wrote:
(370 pts) HQ : Hive Tyrant (Wings, Armored Shell, Hive Commander, Acid Blood, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, Toxic Miasma)

You can not take Wings & Armoured Shell. Also you are wounding most things on 2+ so why take Toxic Sacs?

You *know* how Lash is totally the most broken power in 40k ever (*cough* because it's totally usable against mech armies...), causing complaints of cheese?

Now imagine it against vehicles, doing damage, setting them up for being rear/shotted, or being instakilled...

Now, your main issue is when you initially drop down, you're going to need to bring anti-tank in your other slots. The problem is Lictors are so handy for the Mawloc combo, that Zoans get left out...so what to bring aside from Flyrants, maybe a Harpy or two? Deathspitter Warriors help. Work on stunlocking the outer vehicles of a carpark, boxing the opponent in so firepower can't be brought to bear on your position.

What about Spore pods? I know the lack of an existing model keeps alot of people from having used them much.

But they seem to be a viable way to get up close, and manuevering well enough to keep up with the faster mechs lists(while getting shot less).

The pods can also block LOS just like their SM counterparts- and sure, a krak missle can isnta kill them- but thats one less krak on your MC's or warriors.

Seems like having something pod in alongside the Zoanthropes might help them live longer too. Having to decide between the Zoa's, some warriors or a Carnifex, or a swarm of gants all hiding behind some pods can frazzle alot of opponents.

Has anyone tried teaming the Spore Mines with the Trygon's sub-terrainian assault?

While not an objective denial unit this would really mess with some armies deployment. Think of it as 60 points spent to put 6 S4 AP4 large Pie plates in a small area.

I typically drop my pods empty. I use them for blocking LOS for vehicles and creating choke points. I then try and drop my trygons right behind the pods and use them as screening units. I really don't care if they die since they are 40 points a piece.

Its cake if they pop a tank. I typically will get 2 to 3 glancing hits, and 1 penetrating hits from 4 pods in a game. Thats not too bad for something that really doesn't have to kill anything to be effective.

gannam wrote:I typically drop my pods empty. I use them for blocking LOS for vehicles and creating choke points. I then try and drop my trygons right behind the pods and use them as screening units. I really don't care if they die since they are 40 points a piece.

You do if it's a kill point game.

Krellnus wrote:You do if it's a kill point game.

Not necessary. If they are helping to generate more Kill points (or at least the same) than they are giving away it does not matter.

The funny thing about Mycetic Spores is that against a majority of lighter vehicles, despite their uber ballistic skill and short range, scatter reduction and the weight of fire provided by Ripper Tendrils/Deathspiiters will stop enemy vehicles from firing, probably from moving. In the case of transports it becomes rather funny, in that the passengers get to sit inside being helpless (though Tau and Eldar are used to this anyway); if you can goad the Meltavets or Marines out of their transports to "increase firepower", you've already won.

I know it has been a while but for my original concieved purposes of this thread, I would like to bring it back by asking:

How are the Tyranids shaping up now?

How much if any are the builds and tactics changing now that the FAQ has had time to settle in?

Do Most of you see the 'Nids as evolving into a commonly seen tourny army that performs well at the top tables?

or

Do you think that it will take something like one of the other armies getting a codex that just wrecks mach lists to shift the meta back towards builds that are less vehicle dependent?

Are you still working on the tactics, have sorted them out and are having success or have you moved on to different armies?

What grade would you give GW for:
A) Promoting the release?
B) Model release and supply?
C) And overall score for how the codex turned out?

focusedfire wrote:I know it has been a while but for my original concieved purposes of this thread, I would like to bring it back by asking:

How are the Tyranids shaping up now?

How much if any are the builds and tactics changing now that the FAQ has had time to settle in?

Personally I still think the Bugs can be competitive, but the recent FAQ has nulled a few of the tactics posted in this thread...

E.g.

augustus5 wrote:
...2 tyrants give me +2 to my reserves, almost ensuring me my trygons deep striking on turn 2.

The Hive Commander ability does not stack with multiple HTs.

gannam wrote:
I typically drop my pods empty. I use them for blocking LOS for vehicles and creating choke points.

You cannot drop empty pods anymore, although SM drop pods still can... Just confusing...

And you can no longer put Primes in a pod with a unit he is attached to. A tactic I used a couple of times, to great effect, with a couple of different unit combos... It sucks, but that's a GW FAQ for you. There's a few other things that changed, but I've already had my hate-filled rant in a different thread so I'll leave it there...

focusedfire wrote:
Do Most of you see the 'Nids as evolving into a commonly seen tourny army that performs well at the top tables?

or

Do you think that it will take something like one of the other armies getting a codex that just wrecks mach lists to shift the meta back towards builds that are less vehicle dependent?

I struggle a fair bit with full Mech armies (Eldar, in particular... too many S6 multi shot weapons and those damn transports are soo resilient!) and from what I've been reading, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I think a codex that completely WRECKS a mech army would be great for the Bugs! Anything that deters players from taking nothing but armour is alright in my book ! Haha but something that can bitz a mech army would also bitz any big Bugs in an army as well... So it'll probably be lose/lose

focusedfire wrote:
What grade would you give GW for:
A) Promoting the release?
B) Model release and supply?
C) And overall score for how the codex turned out?

A) C+ - I heard it though the grape vine, but not until about a month before it's release, and at that point I didn't even realise they were working on a new Bug dex... Given, I try to avoid going into GW as much as possible, so me not being informed could be due to my natural avoidance of places that smelly, snot-nosed little kids congregate

B) D - The model release was dismal! Ok, maybe not dismal, but definitely below average... Plastic Gargoyls were great! And plastic Raveners would have been useful if I didn't have 6 metal ones already. The Tygron was a must release, even if it was already available to buy on Forge World... But where are the characters? No Spores released (arguably my favourite new addition for the Bugs)... No Tervigon, Trynofex, Harpys... What about a Ymgarl Genestealer upgrade kit, or a warrior one to covert Primes and Shrikes? Meh! Fingers crossed they will release more at some stage!

C) B+ - Overall, I still really like the codex, despite its shortcomings!

@Overmind-What lists and tactics are you currently employing?

Are you running hivegaurd and tervi/terma combos or do you run a mix?

What HQ's are you using and have you found any ways to exploit instinctive behavior to your advantage?

Poison glands and rending claws work great on warriors.
Reroll to wound vs t 4 units, more chances of rending hits.