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It seems your look at race from a 21century earth based point of view. In the 41 millenium the typical "races" that exist on earth nowadays dont really have much relavence. Just because Cadians are mainly light skinned doesnt mean they are Caucasian, only that on Cadia there is a race of light skinned people. Having an all white regiment isnt some discrimination whites only policy from GW, have you noticed that it takes alot more paints to get "white" skin colour correctly? more paints = more money

Having an all black vet squad is almost more rasist btw just do what you want and have them scattered around the regiment like in the modern military

idk my 2 cents

Because of all of the issues humanity has 41 thousand years in the future issues like race, sexuality, and so on aren't even a drop in the bucket when you have chaos, orks, the dark eldar, necrons and so on...

The vast majority of humanity has no real understanding of Chaos and proportionally most have no first hand knowledge of aliens either, certainly in those areas of the background which discuss ordinary life for humans there is little interest in aliens et cetera.

We do know that humans continue to have a tribal mindset and why shouldn't they, it is what humans are and if anything it is more pronounced. Psykers are mistrusted and persecuted, abhumans have at various times been routinely culled if not simply killed on sight and members of one world do use, what would be termed currently, racist attitudes towards members of other worlds, like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The question is are non-white people under represented in their model ranges.

I would say no.

like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

Which by the way is not recommended.

I doubt GW was actually thinking of race when they made 40k. I don't think it would add anything to add ethnicity to 40k either. Unless they did something awesome like a chapter or army based around Native American or African ideology or some such. I do remember seeing one guy take models of African Tutsi tribesmen and make an IG army out of 'em. It was awesome. I wonder if he ever finished. (Fluff was kinda cool too)

make them what ever you want to and you will see different things in the world especially marines and gaurds

40k has a bit of a 'star trek' thing to it - the idea that, instead of a planet having racial diversity, they stick to each planet having the same skin tone and accent. It's silly, but it's long established in sci-fi.

BL makes a lot of mention of skin tone, but never anything as simple as black or white, or racial stereotypes we'd recognise today - for example, they describe Zeph Mathuin as having 'very dark' skin in Ravenor, as well as some of the Rememberancers and the Aghoru in Thousand Sons. Usually descriptions are 'dark skin' or 'pale skin' or 'sandy skin' dependent upon planet. Other times they use accent - Cadians have a strong Eastern European theme considering their names, place names etc. There's a hunter in Eisenhorn who comes across very South African, when his accent is described as very clipped. The assumption is that there are lots of racial/planetary combinations that we don't have now that have evolved over twenty thousand years on a weird planet - someone like Zeph Mathuin may be 'black' in the sense we see it, and thus look like what we would call West African or Caribbean, or he may just have very dark skin, and facial features of an Inuit - we don't know, and anything is possible.

The model range, however, is very centred around caucasian-looking models. I think this is really for the avoidance of sending racial messages. With their 'generic GW' facial features you could get away with painting them Caucasian, Hispanic, North African, Middle Eastern, Indian, even Central Asian (Mongol/WhiteScar). However, if you make a model range with Black African features or Asian features then you're sending out a clear message as to who they intend these models to be or how they should be painted.

EDIT - plus, of course, they're a UK company selling mostly to the western world and referencing mainly WW1, WW2 and classical ancient history. The majority of references are European/North American/Mediterranean....

The Blood Ravens recruit from a number of planets

Gogsnik wrote:

We do know that humans continue to have a tribal mindset and why shouldn't they, it is what humans are and if anything it is more pronounced. Psykers are mistrusted and persecuted, abhumans have at various times been routinely culled if not simply killed on sight and members of one world do use, what would be termed currently, racist attitudes towards members of other worlds, like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The question is are non-white people under represented in their model ranges.

I would say no.

How da ya figure?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sc0ttfree wrote:It seems your look at race from a 21century earth based point of view. In the 41 millenium the typical "races" that exist on earth nowadays dont really have much relavence. Just because Cadians are mainly light skinned doesnt mean they are Caucasian, only that on Cadia there is a race of light skinned people. Having an all white regiment isnt some discrimination whites only policy from GW, have you noticed that it takes alot more paints to get "white" skin colour correctly? more paints = more money

Having an all black vet squad is almost more rasist btw just do what you want and have them scattered around the regiment like in the modern military

idk my 2 cents

Agreed. Unless in your own regiment's fiction there is segregation.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:How da ya figure?

Because the question is largely bunk. There is no requisite for Games Workshop to paint its studio armies any particular skin tone. As already mentioned most of the armies are based on historical or fictional armies or characters and the skin tones used reflect those inspirations. With that in mind there are exactly as many white skinned or non-white skinned models as there needs to be.

Secondly, as already pointed out, the generic features of the models and the generic white toned skin most of them use is neutral, the models could literally be anyone whereas, in today's politicised atmosphere, choosing to use specific non-white skin tones might well give the wrong impression about what exactly Games Workshop is trying to tell its customers and might well provide an excuse for groups to attack the company. You might think that sounds like an odd comment but I have seen whole sites dedicated to portraying Games Workshop as some bizarre brainwashing centre, teaching children about urban combat tactics with veiled references to Israel (no, seriously, apparently they're all death toys).

In background terms I've already outlined my position that in no serious way, can or should the ethnicites of the various Imperial worlds be traced back to actual current day ethnic groups as it just isn't that likely that any of them would survive on other worlds after tens of thousands of years of exposure to other climates and environments.

Gogsnik has got it right. By this time in the future we'll all be so mixed and mashed together that you won't be able to trace a single bloodline. Ethnic groups will disappear and new ones will form and disappear a thousand years later, there is really no reason for GW to be conscience of race when painting figures.

Henners91 wrote:Hey guys,

I was wondering, are there any chapters, regiments or worlds in the fluff that are stated to be dominated by a non-caucasian ethnicity?

All I can think of with my limited fluff knowledge is the White Scars.

It really seems to me that 40k fluff is dominated by images of the Aryan superman (Cadia, Macragge, etc.). I'd like to see some more diversity... I mean, the only characters I am aware of who were black were both in the DoW series, the Inquisitor guy and Jonah Orion.

I heard the Salamanders used to be black but were retconned? The guy who told me about this said it was because Salamanders used to have -1 Initiative because they came from a high-gravity world, but people were misunderstanding the reasoning...

It surely makes sense that there would be non-whites in the Imperium at any rate.

Actually, it probably makes even more sense than in 38,000 years we'd have eliminated the concept of race and all interbred together to make a nice standardised ethnicity (that wouldn't be white)... Then again, I guess humanity got seperated during the Dark Age of Technology... ack, it's hard!

Salamanders were originally as they now are. They became negroid at some point and the 4th? ed space marine codex shows one with a heavy weapon who isn't wearing a helmet and has obvious negro features. As I understand it, all marines are capable of producing extra melanin to protect themselves from radiation but the salamanders are famed for it.

As for races, given 38,000 years of separation for the core populations of the planets, it's likely that there would be countless races amongst emperor knows how many sub-species and species. It's quite possible that human genetics could have diverged enough to make it hard, if not impossible for "humans" from one planet to have viable offspring with those of another.

ok once again people: we're not talking about the fluff. There's all kinds of people in the fluff.
In the model ranges painted by their studios there's only the Salamanders, the White Scars and a few Catachans.

Yes, you can paint you models anyway you want. You can paint your Ultramarines pink and your Orks with purple skin but we all know that's not really the colour they are. Your instant reaction is "that's not right".

not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

well said Maledictus

Maledictus wrote:not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

Yes, if you read my previous posts I've pretty much said the same thing. Most IG armies are based on British, German and Russian armies of yore. Most non-white cultures are actually represented as Aliens. Eldar are Chinese and the Tau are totally Japanese. I'm not offended by that but I could see how some people feel a little unrepresented.
I think the biggest missed opportunity is not having a Space Marine chapter influenced by the Bushido Samurai. They totally go together. Many chapters are based on Euro-Knights. The Tau are like the modern Anime Japanese, with their god-damn giant robots and technology!
The Samurai's lifelong tradition of duty, honour, self sacrifice and martial discipline is perfect for Astartes. If they ain't space marines ain't nobody space marines.

I have seen black space marines. Especially REALLY Awesomely painted ones here on Dakka gallery. The only Chapter I do not see Black Marines working well is the Space Wolves and that is only because of the whole Fenris, viking Norse Myth thing they are flavored with. Don't really see very many asians, blacks or others in that type of setting or at least I haven't. OF course you don't HAVE to make it this way but still It might feel a bit awkward for that IMO.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maledictus wrote:not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

Yes, if you read my previous posts I've pretty much said the same thing. Most IG armies are based on British, German and Russian armies of yore. Most non-white cultures are actually represented as Aliens. Eldar are Chinese and the Tau are totally Japanese. I'm not offended by that but I could see how some people feel a little unrepresented.
I think the biggest missed opportunity is not having a Space Marine chapter influenced by the Bushido Samurai. They totally go together. Many chapters are based on Euro-Knights. The Tau are like the modern Anime Japanese, with their god-damn giant robots and technology!
The Samurai's lifelong tradition of duty, honour, self sacrifice and martial discipline is perfect for Astartes. If they ain't space marines ain't nobody space marines.

Thats exactly what i hate about the Tau, not the Japanese culture, just all the weaboos they brought into the hobby...

On a more serious note i agree with you that the samurai would have been the perfect basis for an SM chapter. I just get annoyed when people talk about race or gender equality in a game like 40k. if you can come up with good fluff for your pacific islander imperial guard or female marines i would be thrilled to hear it, its just that rather than come up with original fluff all you hear is, "they should exist b/c they are underrepresented". my family hails from Argentina but i'm not demanding that GW write bolas slinging Gaucho marines into the fluff...

Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

yeah damn happy go lucky anime space commies...although if I'm not mistaken the Ethereal caste does use pheromone based mind control to keep the fire caste in line

Maledictus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

yeah damn happy go lucky anime space commies...although if I'm not mistaken the Ethereal caste does use pheromone based mind control to keep the fire caste in line

ya, I'll give 'em that. That got a crazy backwards Caste system. But its genetically-based I guess....not sure if that makes it better or worse. But still they're the closest thing to the Star Trek Federation you're gonna find in 40K.

I know it was already mentioned but Salamanders are coal coloured, how do I know this? My brother came into my room and said "Do you know salamanders are actually black?"
I said to him "What does it matter?"
He says, "No they are actually black, as in ink black."
I asked him what the big deal was and he said that he had painted the entire squad of scouts ginger haired and incredibly pale.

Also I think that Catachans seem to be rather mediteranean, with their dark hair, dark eyes and tanned skin.
And the tanith seem to be something all together different with pale skin, blue and black hair... maybe they are from the Goth planet?
Tallarn raiders were obviously designed with a middle eastern/african theme in mind, but that was before the recent wars and it wasn't exactly a popular look. Which is a shame because they look like the most realistic form of the imperial guard.

But this is a good point, alot of GW's core races seem to be very western (have you seen the blood angels? they wouldn't look out of place in an ambercrombe and fitch catalogue), but that is just something that cropped up because they are a western based company played by mostly western gamers.

Far as I know, Salamanders are still charcoal black with red eyes. It's a mutation due to the radiation on Nocturne.

Tallarn are also very Arabic looking - some folks paint em' with white skin but I find they look best with a middle-eastern skintone.

You've also got the clearly Asian 'Attilan Roughriders'.

It's not that there's discrimination - it's just that the cost of molds for minis means that you're pretty much going to have to run your range on a OSFA standard to some degree. GW obviously can't be making molds for 28mm minis of assorted ethnic origins as the costs would be astronomical. Better to simply paint your minis the way you want- at 28mm I don't think a caucasian facial structure on a mini painted to have dark skin is going to be something people are pointing out

ironlord wrote:I know it was already mentioned but Salamanders are coal coloured, how do I know this? My brother came into my room and said "Do you know salamanders are actually black?"
I said to him "What does it matter?"
He says, "No they are actually black, as in ink black."
I asked him what the big deal was and he said that he had painted the entire squad of scouts ginger haired and incredibly pale.

Also I think that Catachans seem to be rather mediteranean, with their dark hair, dark eyes and tanned skin.
And the tanith seem to be something all together different with pale skin, blue and black hair... maybe they are from the Goth planet?
Tallarn raiders were obviously designed with a middle eastern/african theme in mind, but that was before the recent wars and it wasn't exactly a popular look. Which is a shame because they look like the most realistic form of the imperial guard.

But this is a good point, alot of GW's core races seem to be very western (have you seen the blood angels? they wouldn't look out of place in an ambercrombe and fitch catalogue), but that is just something that cropped up because they are a western based company played by mostly western gamers.

Whoa, Whoa:
Catachans are American. Specifically American GIs that fought in Vietnam. More specifically: Rambo.
Tanith are Irish. Black Irish to be specific.
Tallarn are Arabs.

Blood Angels got a GreecoRoman thing going on.

From: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/imperial-guard/47308-ultimate-imperial-guard-conversion-guide.html

The Noctan Strike Forces
"They seem to have a ghostly nature about them. Their appearance and mannerism is enough to chill a man to the bone. Yet this night has proven to me that the sons of Noctan are among the bravest and most loyal men we have seen in this war."
-Commissar Yuliov commenting on the Noctan raid on the Ork-infested Archeron Hive

-Background info: The night world of Noctan is home to one of the most elite night-fighting regiments in the Galaxy. Masters of daring night raids, these dark-skinned soldiers fight with grim determination. They are known for operating for days in complete darkness without a sound.
-These guys can be made using the Cadian plastic minis as the base for converting. 'Bag out' their trousers using Green Stuff and remove the bulky shoulderplates. Fix thee remainder of the shoulder with Green Stuff. Get hold of some Necromunda backpacks and create rebreater tubes from Green Stuff. Attach the tubing to the sides of the helmet.
-Colour schemes: Paint these guys dark blue or black (they are nocturnal fighters after all). The Noctan are actually dark-skinned so the picture is a bit wrong. Also, paint the trim of the uniform in bright red and if you like, you can make a scarlet scarf and wrap it round the waist of your troops.
(Doctrines: Special Weapon Squads, Light infantry, Sharpshooters, Grenadiers, Hardened Fighters)

Ha! they're white in the picture. Also they're not a studio army.
There's only 3 non-white studio armies: Salamanders, White Scars and Tallarn. (and the occasional Catachan).

The Imperial Fists are probably the most diverse (racially) marine chapter, their chapter master is Russian (Vladimir Pugh), head chaplain is Chinese (Lo Chang).

Since they recruit from Earth and nearby systems, it's probable that Earth (Terra) had different racial groups (i.e countries) populate the various planets during the Dark Age of Technology, hence only a few racial groups on different planets (as Earth and the nearby systems are still racially diverse).

Yes, i hadn't thought of that. There are many fleet based chapters (Dark Angels) that recruit from all over the galaxy.

All of my guardsmen are painted with dark flesh, and Vulkan is the black primarch. I think they are cleverly avoid any racial conflict by not making a big deal out of it. I am african american and to me they are trying to create a universe where you are human or non-human. Recognition in the 40k universe is to acknowledge a difference, and if you are different in the slightest way you are consider abhuman.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the crullest and most bloody regime imaginable.

But the universe is a big place and whatever happens you will not be missed

Thats the first thing you read when you open the rule book, I think ethnic background is the least of their worries.

CKO wrote:All of my guardsmen are painted with dark flesh, and Vulkan is the black primarch. I think they are cleverly avoid any racial conflict by not making a big deal out of it. I am african american and to me they are trying to create a universe where you are human or non-human. Recognition in the 40k universe is to acknowledge a difference, and if you are different in the slightest way you are consider abhuman.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the crullest and most bloody regime imaginable.

But the universe is a big place and whatever happens you will not be missed

Thats the first thing you read when you open the rule book, I think ethnic background is the least of their worries.

Yep, that's probably the only good thing about living in the Imperium!

For some reason theres no worlds in fluff that have naturaly black inhabitants. But since theres not many color fluff pictures so its hard to tell. For the purposes of realism, I paint my cadians a mix of different skin tones, because unless you live on an ice world a planet will have black & white people, but, like many sci-fi unis, it makes all people have color depending on species or planet, rather then based on whether there part of a planet is hot or cold. I mean, Earth's not like that now. But you do see black commies and very few planets have all black people. But none have a mix of skin tones. But star wars made that mistake, so who can blame gw.