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More directly, right now the market is making you buy something, namely the cost of subsidizing the uninsured. Maybe not all the time, but anytime you buy anything medically related. The government is evening it out, so that everybody pays a steadier amount.

In a truly centrist (selfish) society, we'd just let you die if you couldn't pay/didn't have insurance. I'd be fine with that because I always make sure I'm covered. Get rid of medicaid right now, who cares about all those little kids that come from poor families, right?

Like I said. I lived in 2 countries with socialized medicine of one form or another and both required all citizens to be covered. I paid little, even compared to the coverage I have now. In S.Korea, I paid a flat fee per Dr. visit and a small percentage for hospital visit. In Japan it was a percentage all around.

agnosto wrote:In a truly centrist (selfish) society, we'd just let you die if you couldn't pay/didn't have insurance. I'd be fine with that because I always make sure I'm covered. Get rid of medicaid right now, who cares about all those little kids that come from poor families, right?

Like I said. I lived in 2 countries with socialized medicine of one form or another and both required all citizens to be covered. I paid little, even compared to the coverage I have now. In S.Korea, I paid a flat fee per Dr. visit and a small percentage for hospital visit. In Japan it was a percentage all around.

You're conveniently forgetting the amount of taxes that had to be paid by someone to cover those visits.

Frazzled wrote:
You're conveniently forgetting the amount of taxes that had to be paid by someone to cover those visits.

That's not how they work.
In both Korea and Japan, I paid into the healthcare system, just like I do now at work here in the U.S....kind of like medicare but being able to use it before I'm dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan

Not if his point was that socializing medicine can work without bankrupting a country. Do you really think he was saying that the health care really became nearly free?

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:In a truly centrist (selfish) society, we'd just let you die if you couldn't pay/didn't have insurance. I'd be fine with that because I always make sure I'm covered. Get rid of medicaid right now, who cares about all those little kids that come from poor families, right?

Like I said. I lived in 2 countries with socialized medicine of one form or another and both required all citizens to be covered. I paid little, even compared to the coverage I have now. In S.Korea, I paid a flat fee per Dr. visit and a small percentage for hospital visit. In Japan it was a percentage all around.

You're conveniently forgetting the amount of taxes that had to be paid by someone to cover those visits.

Even so, I would support taxpayer funded medical care. I'm aware that someone would have to pay for universal healthcare, and that might mean tax increases across the board. As is, the United States is the most tax friendly countries in the world, especially for the upper tax bracket. My state doesn't even have a state income tax, which, as you might imagine, means we have substandard education and public health.

Khornholio wrote:You might be right about how much the US dropped on healthcare. That's great. But what I said is TRUE and not rubbish.

I see this is hard for you so I'll type slowly.

Canada spent an amount on healthcare per capita roughly equal to other developed nations.

It makes no sense, no sense, no sense at all to claim Canada could only afford this because it neglected defence spending, when it spent as much as other nations.

It makes no sense, no sense, no sense at all to suggest that if the US toned down money for their military there'd be money for healthcare, when the US spends about twice as much per capita on healthcare with their current system.


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Grignard wrote:Yah, I don't think he mentioned anything about the situation being relative to the US.

He did though,

"If the US toned down their military (ain't gonna happen/not suggesting it), then there would probably be cash for universal healthcare in the US."


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Fateweaver wrote:The problem most have with the Universal health care is being forced to have coverage. If I want to risk paying a lot more for a doctor visit in the future but spend less now with not having insurance that should be my choice.

If you get cancer can society choose not to treat you?

Sure. If I get cancer it's because a higher power wants me off this Earth.

If I'm meant to die I'm meant to die. Now lets assume for fun that I'm worth $300M. Should I need to buy insurance to cover medical expenses for cancer? Afterall, I have $300M and even a heart transplant wouldn't begin to touch that.

IMO the HCR Bill is a pile of gak. My opinion won't change. The current health care system isn't perfect but the "fix" isn't fixing anything at all.

Fateweaver wrote:Sure. If I get cancer it's because a higher power wants me off this Earth.

If I'm meant to die I'm meant to die. Now lets assume for fun that I'm worth $300M. Should I need to buy insurance to cover medical expenses for cancer? Afterall, I have $300M and even a heart transplant wouldn't begin to touch that.

IMO the HCR Bill is a pile of gak. My opinion won't change. The current health care system isn't perfect but the "fix" isn't fixing anything at all.

Why not at least have an open mind for it? If you can learn more about it and discuss it, your opinion still might not change, and that is fine.

As far as having a net worth exemption, well, I know they do that in my state for auto liability, but it would have to be a large amount. Far better I feel if they'd just fund it with taxpayer money in addition to copays.

If, in your hypothetical example, you were worth 300M, why would being forced to spend a small amount on insurance bother you anyhow.

Why is the health bill a piece of crap other than that is the way you feel?

I work in hospitals. (registered nurse)

It really boils my blood when i see.

Lady in the ER
Talking on a blackberry
Over a thousand dollars in tattoos
Tons of jewlery
Drove up in a nice car
Insurance: Medicaid

OR

unmarried 21 year old
having her third kid
Asks what formula WIC will cover cause she doesnt like breastfeeding
Also on medicaid.

People expect and get hand outs far to easy in the US. The welfare, medicaid, and similar programs are far to lax on who they help imo. If a family can afford cable TV, internet, a computer, two cars, etc, it can afford to not have government handouts.

Careful Shivan, according to liberals those people don't exist. That if you are getting government handouts you are living in the street eating garbage.

ShivanAngel wrote:I work in hospitals. (registered nurse)

It really boils my blood when i see.

Lady in the ER
Talking on a blackberry
Over a thousand dollars in tattoos
Tons of jewlery
Drove up in a nice car
Insurance: Medicaid

OR

unmarried 21 year old
having her third kid
Asks what formula WIC will cover cause she doesnt like breastfeeding
Also on medicaid.

People expect and get hand outs far to easy in the US. The welfare, medicaid, and similar programs are far to lax on who they help imo. If a family can afford cable TV, internet, a computer, two cars, etc, it can afford to not have government handouts.

Again, you're using exceptions to the rule to prove a case. What about someone with a debilitating illness who can't get insured due to preexisting conditions? What about the working poor who through simple lack of money or poor luck, or heck, even a few poor choices, that is sinking into debt because of health expenses.

I understand that as a health care professional you might be worried about being hit in the pocketbook. I have the same argument with my father all the time, who is in the same general line of work. I can completely understand that point of view, and I can understand your view a lot more than someone who is already impoverished who argues against health care reform.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to think that way.

I think our problems isn't that you oppose the HCR (a deeply flawed bill that while a step in the right direction tries to serve too many masters), but the reasons you choose to.

It's hard not replace many of your posts with "I hate taxes and I have no ability to empathize with any other person." they go on for longer, but your point is so often repeated, and often so maddeningly off course, that it's pretty easy to dispute.

When you keep harping on things like HCR helping out "lazy welfare mothers," you do two things. First, you show ignorance of the facts (that they already get pretty good health care through medicaid), and second, you show that you simply hate a group of people that is far more diverse and varied than the stereotype used as a punching bag. Add in the fact that welfare reform 15 years ago eliminated the worst of the abuses of the system, and you seem to be raging against a spectre.

When you say that you don't support a bill because you think it will help a group that it won't, that also really doesn't even exist anymore... well, maybe you should think about how you're stating your opinions.

haha, you guys think thats bad, You should see the gak we have to pay for over here.. some Portugese dude got his cock lopped off and he got turned into a woman because he was "unhappy" as a man, and the NHS payed for it!

Fateweaver wrote:Careful Shivan, according to liberals those people don't exist. That if you are getting government handouts you are living in the street eating garbage.

This is not true. I realize shiftless, no count people exist. I know a man with two children who are getting an EITC and food stamps who was offered a job that would allow him to pay for those things and probably live the same lifestyle or even a little better. He declined the job because he didn't want to wake up at 8 AM. Sure, that is an example of abuse.

That is also anecdotal, and I believe not representative of the greater number of people who need reform. You are always going to have abuse government services, does that justify not having them at all?

ShivanAngel wrote:I work in hospitals. (registered nurse)

It really boils my blood when i see.

Lady in the ER
Talking on a blackberry
Over a thousand dollars in tattoos
Tons of jewlery
Drove up in a nice car
Insurance: Medicaid

OR

unmarried 21 year old
having her third kid
Asks what formula WIC will cover cause she doesnt like breastfeeding
Also on medicaid.

People expect and get hand outs far to easy in the US. The welfare, medicaid, and similar programs are far to lax on who they help imo. If a family can afford cable TV, internet, a computer, two cars, etc, it can afford to not have government handouts.

Neither of whom is helped by the current reform bill. Also, medicaid is based on legal income, not income from drugs or prostitution, which is where most of the luxury goods bought at least in urban areas comes from, not the government.

mattyrm wrote:haha, you guys think thats bad, You should see the gak we have to pay for over here.. some Portugese dude got his cock lopped off and he got turned into a woman because he was "unhappy" as a man, and the NHS payed for it!

Well, if you had a psychiatrist that diagnosed him, you could make an argument that sex reassignment was medically necessary. I don't know the details so I can't argue.

Several courts have ruled that pets kept for psychological support can be a reasonable accommodation under the ADA, meaning you can have a dog even if the landlord or home owner's association won't allow it.

Mental disorders are just as real as physical ones.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:I work in hospitals. (registered nurse)

It really boils my blood when i see.

Lady in the ER
Talking on a blackberry
Over a thousand dollars in tattoos
Tons of jewlery
Drove up in a nice car
Insurance: Medicaid

OR

unmarried 21 year old
having her third kid
Asks what formula WIC will cover cause she doesnt like breastfeeding
Also on medicaid.

People expect and get hand outs far to easy in the US. The welfare, medicaid, and similar programs are far to lax on who they help imo. If a family can afford cable TV, internet, a computer, two cars, etc, it can afford to not have government handouts.

Again, you're using exceptions to the rule to prove a case. What about someone with a debilitating illness who can't get insured due to preexisting conditions? What about the working poor who through simple lack of money or poor luck, or heck, even a few poor choices, that is sinking into debt because of health expenses.

I understand that as a health care professional you might be worried about being hit in the pocketbook. I have the same argument with my father all the time, who is in the same general line of work. I can completely understand that point of view, and I can understand your view a lot more than someone who is already impoverished who argues against health care reform.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to think that way.

1st you would be surprised how many of these exceptions exist.

2nd Debilitating illness is one thing, if you suffer a major accident and cant work, are living in the hospital etc, yes you need some help.

Poor life choices, sure i feel bad for them, but why should I have to pay the price for their mistakes. They made the choices and those of us who work hard for what we have are forced to pay the consequences.

I think the biggest issue i have with the reform is it punishes those who made good decisions (going to college, getting a good job, etc), and rewarding those who dont. (dropped out of high school, got his girlfriend pregnant at 19 etc).

BTW I honestly dont see it hurting those of us in the health care profession, if anything we will be making more money and have more jobs... Unless im reading the bill horribly wrong.

Polonius wrote:Several courts have ruled that pets kept for psychological support can be a reasonable accommodation under the ADA, meaning you can have a dog even if the landlord or home owner's association won't allow it.

Mental disorders are just as real as physical ones.

Mental healthcare has always been the red headed stepchild of health care.

I've heard people complain about accommodations given for ADHD students. As someone with an attention problem, I have fortunately not needed those accommodations so far, but should people begrudge those?

I've heard someone, a professor no less, express the opinion that students should be tested for stimulants ( used for ADHD treatment) prior to taking tests as they are "performance enhancing drugs".

Grignard wrote:

Polonius wrote:Several courts have ruled that pets kept for psychological support can be a reasonable accommodation under the ADA, meaning you can have a dog even if the landlord or home owner's association won't allow it.

Mental disorders are just as real as physical ones.

Mental healthcare has always been the red headed stepchild of health care.

I've heard people complain about accommodations given for ADHD students. As someone with an attention problem, I have fortunately not needed those accommodations so far, but should people begrudge those?

I've heard someone, a professor no less, express the opinion that students should be tested for stimulants ( used for ADHD treatment) prior to taking tests as they are "performance enhancing drugs".

Haha as someone with ADHD I dont know how I would have gotten through college without my meds. I would seriously drift off into my own world and not realize 20 minutes had passed with me not paying attention. I never asked for special accommodations or blamed anything on my illness. I just had to work harder in some aspects.

Which brings us to another issue all together. People love jumping on the i have XXXXXXX accommodate me bandwagon instead of putting in some extra effort.

No offense but I hate the ADHD and ADD label. When I was young ADHD behavior and ADD were normal behaviors in toddlers (the age at which most are diagnosed to have them).

Anything now days to let doctors make more money.

Fateweaver wrote:No offense but I hate the ADHD and ADD label. When I was young ADHD behavior and ADD were normal behaviors in toddlers (the age at which most are diagnosed to have them).

Anything now days to let doctors make more money.

Yeah i had my wifes friend ask if i thought her kid had ADHD.

I was like no.

She asked "then why is he so hyper and uncontrollable"

Me: "He is two and a half"

ShivanAngel wrote:

1st you would be surprised how many of these exceptions exist.

2nd Debilitating illness is one thing, if you suffer a major accident and cant work, are living in the hospital etc, yes you need some help.

Poor life choices, sure i feel bad for them, but why should I have to pay the price for their mistakes. They made the choices and those of us who work hard for what we have are forced to pay the consequences.

I've made poor choices ( admittingly, there are probably some choices so poor that you just don't get another chance) and have come back and gotten my degree, a job, got on with life, etc. Should people's lives be ruined from bad judgement with no chance to correct it?

ShivanAngel wrote:
I think the biggest issue i have with the reform is it punishes those who made good decisions (going to college, getting a good job, etc), and rewarding those who dont. (dropped out of high school, got his girlfriend pregnant at 19 etc).

BTW I honestly dont see it hurting those of us in the health care profession, if anything we will be making more money and have more jobs... Unless im reading the bill horribly wrong.

I made those good choices, and I do have insurance, but I know many college educated people who don't. I don't have benefits or pay that are greater than some people with less education but better jobs. In that case, who made "right" decisions?

Its interesting to hear you say that last one. My father says the same thing. That seems like a win-win to me, but for some reason he's still against it and that is just ideals I suppose.


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Fateweaver wrote:No offense but I hate the ADHD and ADD label. When I was young ADHD behavior and ADD were normal behaviors in toddlers (the age at which most are diagnosed to have them).

Anything now days to let doctors make more money.

Well, I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Unlike many people I was diagnosed as an adult, and while I still have problems, the medication and mental exercises help a lot. I believe it is very real, and most scientific data supports that it is real.

Is it overdiagnosed or misdiagnosed. Thats quite possible

Yeah im against the idea of it, I could care less that ill be making more money.

I used very very broad examples. I was in no way implying that just because someone goes to college they wont make debilitating mistakes that can ruin their lives.

I was also not implying that someone who made mistakes could turn their life around. If i came across that way i didnt mean to.

Im talking about the people who continuously make mistakes and dig themselves deeper and deeper, then expect the government to help them out. They normally get the help, and continue to not try to better themselves.

I was also not diagnosed with ADHD till college, when it really started to hurt me. However i am currently off my meds and do fine soooo.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Haha as someone with ADHD I dont know how I would have gotten through college without my meds. I would seriously drift off into my own world and not realize 20 minutes had passed with me not paying attention. I never asked for special accommodations or blamed anything on my illness. I just had to work harder in some aspects.

Which brings us to another issue all together. People love jumping on the i have XXXXXXX accommodate me bandwagon instead of putting in some extra effort.

I haven't used those accommodations because I A. Wasn't diagnosed at the time B. Probably wasn't bad enough to need them. I would take advantage of them if I needed them though. Should someone who can't walk not use a wheelchair?

Sure, you work hard, but what point is there having the tables stacked against you when it isn't necessary?


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ShivanAngel wrote:Yeah im against the idea of it, I could care less that ill be making more money.

I used very very broad examples. I was in no way implying that just because someone goes to college they wont make debilitating mistakes that can ruin their lives.

I was also not implying that someone who made mistakes could turn their life around. If i came across that way i didnt mean to.

Im talking about the people who continuously make mistakes and dig themselves deeper and deeper, then expect the government to help them out. They normally get the help, and continue to not try to better themselves.

I was also not diagnosed with ADHD till college, when it really started to hurt me. However i am currently off my meds and do fine soooo.

Sure, there are people who are chronic screw ups and some people who are simply no count. But it is hard to weed out the bad apples. All you can do is enforce it. I wouldn't want something not to exist because it has the potential to be abused.

Fateweaver wrote:Careful Shivan, according to liberals those people don't exist. That if you are getting government handouts you are living in the street eating garbage.

Can you explain what this post was meant to accomplish?

Or was it simply flaming for fun?

Polonius wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Careful Shivan, according to liberals those people don't exist. That if you are getting government handouts you are living in the street eating garbage.

Can you explain what this post was meant to accomplish?

Or was it simply flaming for fun?

Its an important point. I think the belief is that people who support government services like this are unaware of "real" life. I'm quite aware that there are people that are no count out there. I don't think that justifies not having universal healthcare.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:
Haha as someone with ADHD I dont know how I would have gotten through college without my meds. I would seriously drift off into my own world and not realize 20 minutes had passed with me not paying attention. I never asked for special accommodations or blamed anything on my illness. I just had to work harder in some aspects.

Which brings us to another issue all together. People love jumping on the i have XXXXXXX accommodate me bandwagon instead of putting in some extra effort.

I haven't used those accommodations because I A. Wasn't diagnosed at the time B. Probably wasn't bad enough to need them. I would take advantage of them if I needed them though. Should someone who can't walk not use a wheelchair?

Sure, you work hard, but what point is there having the tables stacked against you when it isn't necessary?

I think i misused the word accommodations. I never expected my tests to be easier or my grades to be adjusted because of my ADHD. There are some things that should be given to people with disabilities. A wheelchair and wheelchair ramps is a necessity for someone who cant walk.

The things im talking about is someone with ADHD expecting an easier test or a curve simply because of their illness. Yes its unfortunate that they have said illness. However it just requires more work and a change in habits to accommodate yourself. (as well as the right medication).

Look at it this way. How would you feel if you found out the person who has your life in their hands at the hospital was allowed an easier time in college just because they had ADHD... Would make me more than a little nervous.






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Fateweaver wrote:Careful Shivan, according to liberals those people don't exist. That if you are getting government handouts you are living in the street eating garbage.

Meh wish i had seen this post earlier. I didnt want the liberal vs conservative thing getting tied into this argument. It really doesnt help the point im trying to make.

I partied with, and slept with, enough people in college that went on to med school to be frankly terrified of needing medical care. My brother is a paramedic, and one night while drinking a case (each), he dropped an IV in each of us to hang a saline bag to prevent the hangover.

It's hard to know where to draw the line between making things fair, and giving the disabled an advantage. I do know that nobody would swap being perfectly healthy for any disability on the market.

I think accomodations also need to tie into the later demands of the field. Giving extra time to a dyslexic on a law school exam isn't a problem, because while reading fast is an advantage on the job, it's not life or death like it is for a paramedic.