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How about tweaking it to be more in line with the typical Space Marine missile systems seen on other SM units?

So it can fire w/ two profiles:

Krak Shot (note that it may not indirect fire in this mode)
R12-48" S8 AP3 Heavy 2, Twin Linked

Incendiaries
R12-48" S4 AP5 Heavy 4, Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover*

Also, a points increase would be required as you said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh I can't see my post

Hmm, now I can see his posts. That was weird. Anyhow, back to the discussion.

I don't think turning the Whirlwind into a Cyclone Launcher + is the way to go. The Space Marine army already has access to a ton of Cyclones, Typhoons, and so on. It also duplicates what the Devastators can do by being armed with four Missile Launchers.

The whirlwind is one of the few marine options to take on units in cover, and can do so from line of sight. Should every other HS unit be able to do the same?

Fluff wise, the whirwind is a light artillery vehicle that is meant to keep pace with the rest of a strike force. You are suggesting a larger artillery piece that is outside the whirlwinds prescribed role.

Almost every other slot in a morine army can deal with Av12 vehicles. If your whirlwind has to, then you are already having problems.

So aside from all the Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Inferno Cannon, Thunderfire Cannon, and Special Ammunition, there really aren't that many options for Space Marines to take on units in cover are there? No, clearly there are. Nobody takes Whirlwinds because they may have to deal with hordes of infantry in cover, because there's so much else that can do that.

I certainly agree with the uniqueness of the Whirlwind Launcher have the Barrage rule. That's why I proposed that the new profile be:

Rng: 12"-48", S8, AP3, Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast

The fluff is irrelevant when it comes to debating matters of balancing game options, so let's leave that out of here, or take it up in the background forum where it can be safely ignored, okay?

But I'm glad you agree that you will have problems if you have to deal with AV12+ vehicles with a Whirlwind. Because if you have that problem, the best way to solve it is not to take Whirlwinds in the first place. That's my point: the Whirlwind is okay against a narrow range of targets, but just being okay against a narrow range of targets means that it's not a live option in the same list as all the other Heavy Support options.

Nurglitch wrote: It is a fact that the Whirlwind is the only Heavy Support choice unable to address AV12+ vehicles. All the other choices have varying anti-infantry and anti-vehicle capabilities

Let's try this from a different angle.

Can Predators, Land Raiders, or Vindicators deal with a horde/unit in cover the same way the Whirlwind can? No.
Why should the Whirlwind share the option of knocking out vehicles, when the other Heavy Options can't do the same in return?

I understand the point you are making about anti-horde/cover being widespread...but so is anti-tank.

There is an expression out there 'If it ain't broke... don't fix it.'
the whirlwind isn't broken, it fills a niche, a very specific one, but a niche none-the less.
there are plenty of things that can do what the whirlwind does (and do it better i am sure) but what the whirlwind has is point value.. ITS CHEAP!!
Its cost effective, strait and to the point. if it could do what everything else could do, for more points, then it wouldn't be a whirlwind it would be a predator, or what have you.l

Nurglitch wrote:sebster:

I'm not considering unit design purely in terms of unit competitiveness in the current meta-game. I'm considering it in terms of the unit's ability to address other units in shooting combat. It is a fact that the Whirlwind is the only Heavy Support choice unable to address AV12+ vehicles. All the other choices have varying anti-infantry and anti-vehicle capabilities.

Consider it like having sets of choices so that choice-set A gives you [4,3,4], choice set B gives you [2,6,2] and choice set C gives you [3,5]. C is simply not a live option.

Reduced options are alright when you pay a reduced price, and so the Whirlwind fits nicely as a light support unit that you can take for a reduced price in order to focus on infantry. You pay for versatility, you save points by accepting specialisation.

This is only a problem right now because the metagame is tending towards fully mechanised lists, increasing the chance that the enemy might not provide any infantry to shoot at. But I don't think that's a problem with the Whirlwind.

Xca|iber wrote:How about tweaking it to be more in line with the typical Space Marine missile systems seen on other SM units?

So it can fire w/ two profiles:

Krak Shot (note that it may not indirect fire in this mode)
R12-48" S8 AP3 Heavy 2, Twin Linked

Incendiaries
R12-48" S4 AP5 Heavy 4, Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover*

Also, a points increase would be required as you said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh I can't see my post

I agree with this one, the whirlwind is equipped with a multiple missile launcher, so why is it only a single blast? Though maybe not heavy 4 with the incendiaries.

All the flamers in the world wont help against snipers tucked in cover 30" aways... which is where the whirlwind is probably most useful.