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Buttlerthepug wrote:The only trouble with putting him in a boar (as I did try this in one game. Is the fact that he can be picked out in a unit other than boar boyz. I never thought about the Best Basha, I might actually try that out, as there is alot of people I see using Death/Shadow and that can definitely make me a tad safer for some of those devistating spells.

I often put the Best Basha as:
1) Static +1 Strength. Almost always wounding on 3's or 2's, with -2 to saves to boot.
2) WS7. Means even Nurgle Chaos Warriors are being hit on 3's (very good for O&G), and WS3 enemies are now hitting on 5's (Saurus, Empire Spearmen, some Knight varieties, steeds, and so on).
3) I4 Big Boss. Not to be underestimated: Strikes before steeds now, goes before a few infantry unit types now (and some Heroes even), and the whole "From 50% to 33% failure" for "Initiative or Die" effects.

Most advantageous as it's only 15pts, so it can still be combined with a 5+ Ward. Heck, if you really wanted you could add one of the five point enchanted items to this combo. Plus, it's not like you're losing out placing it here instead of another Hero-level character. It's one of the few times I'd suggest the Best Basha on a Hero BOrc anyways: Normally you can do better, but in this case you're limited in defensive gear (no shields) and offensive capability (only one hand). The Basha still adds some defensive capability (5's instead of 4's isn't to be scoffed at), but adds Offensive as well.

Actually Minsc, I hadnt thought of it before, but wouldnt Amulet of Protectyness be very defense and a pretty good choice for the BSB. I mean hell, it seems like everyone is giving their wizards the best Armour and Ward save they can... so why not let me borrow it?

Buttlerthepug wrote:Actually Minsc, I hadnt thought of it before, but wouldnt Amulet of Protectyness be very defense and a pretty good choice for the BSB. I mean hell, it seems like everyone is giving their wizards the best Armour and Ward save they can... so why not let me borrow it?

The problem with a BSB with the Amulet of Protectyness is they're vulnerable against War Machines (especially template / if on a Boar) and standard mook infantry (See: Anything which after its own Strength Modifiers leaves a 5+ or worse save). It's very useful against Daemons (Static 5+ Ward), but against some armies it's practically zilch (those with unprotected / regenerating Wizards).

Some (personal) evaluations on common items in 8th Edition for O&G.

To start, Magic Weapons:

Giant Blade - Lord Only. I can only really suggest this for Goblin Warbosses, predominantly Night Goblin, and a gimmicky BOrc Character. There's a few reasons for this:

Pros:

+3 Strength. Being on a character, this means at least S7, S8 on Orcs. Barring enemy monsters, and often even then, this is wounding on 2's.

-3 to enemy armor saves. You're already -1 to -2, with this you're ranging from -4 to -5. Unless facing heavy cavalry or a character, this is often no save (Chaos Warriors & Iron Breakers are only Parry Saves at this point).

Cheaper than a Waaagh! Cleava & the Battleaxe. The Battleaxe can get +3 attacks to boot, but it's almost twice the cost. Situational as well (can become only +2 Strength). Waaagh! Cleava is just as expensive as Battleaxe, but is mixed. On one hand, hits auto-wound and no regular save. On the other, with this you're often wounding on 2's with no saves anyways (need Heavy Armor & Barded Mount for any save).

Goblin-allowed! Goblins are normally "limited" to the Screamin' Sword at best. While you can't get the bonus attacks like possible for the Screamin' Sword, you're getting a static +3 strength. Add in that you can have I5 Warbosses, you can actually strike before a bunch of enemies to boot. WS5 Warboss = 3's to hit, 2's to wound, -4 to saves. Nasty.


Cons:

+1 Strength over Great Weapon. For an Orc Warboss, the differences between S7 and S8 are often negligible (2's to wound T5 or lower, ignores armor 3+ and worse), so another 54pts for that and "magic" as well is a minor buff. More GW loss for Night Goblin Warbosses (who are S4 base instead of S5, as well as I5 instead of I4), but for Orc Warbosses you might as well go Great Weapon and buy Helm + Boar + Heavy Armor + Ward gear.

Lord-only. At the point cost it has, you're only putting this on Lords. Even the cheapest Lord is 55pts, and for Orcs you might be throwing down nearly (if not over) 200pts with just them and this weapon.


Not an amazing blade, but if you can find a good combo to slap this onto a Lord for you've now got what amounts to 2+ to wound and no-save on non-characters / heavy cavalry. It also is magical attacks, so a minor leg-up over a Great Weapon there. The catch being that magic attacks are much less important this edition, an Orc is about as offensive (in game terms!) with a Great Weapon as this blade, and so on.


Suggested Combos:
Somewhere on a Night Goblin Warboss

Black Orc Warboss: Heavy Armor, Shield, Boar, Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Talisman of Endurance / Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At (4 WS7 S8 attacks on a 1+ / 5+ save model, 2+ Ward towards flaming attacks)


Sword of Bloodshed - Lord Only. The Sword of Bloodshed has a few advantages and flaws to it. As a pro, it's +3 Attacks: With Bigged's Kickin' Boots or a Savage Orc Warboss, you just doubled your attacks. Unlike the Bloodaxe, you can put this on any character (Orc or Goblin) and stuff them in a unit to boot. For an Orc, this can be nasty as you're looking at 7-9 WS6 (or WS7) S5 attacks (so wounds often on 3's or 2's). For a Goblin, much less helpful as you're only S4.

Same price drawback as the Giant Blade. If you take this on any character, an Orc would probably be best. Of interesting note is that this is just within the point range to combine with a Staff of Baduum. Why put it on a Mage? Simple: Savage Orc Great Shamans are a S4, T5, W3, 6+ Ward model naturally. With this, you just bumped said Great Shaman to 5 S4 attacks. Not stellar, but for a Mage this is a surprising amount of direct offensive power (enough to kill most T3 or T4 unit champions in a challenge without multiple wounds or heavy armor).


Obsidian Blade. This item is too expensive for what it does: Goblins can already get close to this with their Sneaky Skewer (allowing a save only if you have a 1+ or 2+ save base) for a third the cost, Orcs can - for ten points more - get the Giant Blade for only 1+ armor allowing any sort of save but +3 strength as well, or spend almost a tenth the points for a Great Weapon and be in a slightly better boat than a Goblin. No bonus' to hit, to wound, just no saves. Not worth it in my opinion.


Ogre Blade. A great weapon that doesn't get ASL or take two hands, essentially, at between x7 or x10 the cost (depending on if it's being put on a hero or a Lord). Similar boat as the Giant Blade, pretty much. Some situations you might as well take the Great Weapon and save points, other times it can come in handy. The BOrc example given above can upgrade to a 4+ natural ward in this example, and still has S7 to bank on, but that's about the only gain. Not a bad weapon, but not too useful in most instances either.


Sword of Strife. Slightly cheaper and slightly toned down Sword of Bloodshed, so again a so-so weapon predominantly to be used by Orc Lords (if used at all).


Fencer's Blades. Two hand weapons that give WS10 as well. Not really useful in competitive terms, but for fun I guess you could slap it onto a Night Goblin Big Boss and watch as their enemy unit's champion goes from 3's to wound to 4's or 5's (essentially -1 to -2 to hit) and also have to deal with the one higher toughness (for a total of 25%-50% less hits and 0-33% less wounds). As with Obsidian Blade, I wouldn't really recommend it.

Sword of Anti-Heroes. A watered down Shaga's Screamin' Sword, you get what you pay for. Still get +1 Strength and Attack for every enemy character, but now it's just enemy characters fighting against your character / unit as opposed to a 12" bubble. Without the bubble, it's not quite as worth it in my opinion: You still need about the same number of characters to get effective (two to match Ulag's Akrit Axe, three or more to beat), but that's both harder now and it's still more expensive than the Axe. Normally, I'll suggest passing this. One possible exception being a unit with both a Shaga's and Anti-Heroes 'boss in it, particularly at the army's center to steam-roll a general + BSB unit.


Spellthieving Sword. 25pts for an item that's only really useful against Level 1 Hero Wizards. I guess it can be useful on a specially tailored Goblin character (Tricksy Trinket + Spellthieving Sword = possibly drop two Lord spells), but even so you're usually better just going for a kill instead of spell denial.


Sword of Swift Slaying. Less useful here than for other armies. Barring Black Orc units, you can often afford a few lost ladz before the character strikes, and barring the I5 Night Goblin Warboss you aren't likely to get re-rolls either. More often than not, the Akrit Axe is better for the same cost. Will say "Pass".


Sword of Battle. +1 attack, meh. For Orcs, you can get the same at +1 strength too for between 6pts and free (at the cost of magical attacks), for Goblins another S4 attack is rarely that big a deal. Another "Pass".


Berserker Sword. To the Bloodaxe what the Anti-Hero sword is to Shaga's Screamin' Sword. Watered down at lower cost, in this case a non-losable Frenzy without the bonus attacks or First-round strength bonus. While IMO slightly better than the Sword of Battle (you get Immune to Psychology as a boost), it's still not really worth it (Bloodaxe + 3" "Lookout Sir" bubble + BSB + Charge Bonus = wonderful support to unit now).


Sword of Might. Half-price in the Orc book, and for good reason right now (Choppa gives most Orc characters +1 strength by default in combats' first round). If full 20pts as in BRB, would never suggest it as it's outdone handily. At 10pts, might be worthwhile to put on a Cavalry BOrc Big Boss (since they can't buy spears and gain no Choppa bonus), but you'll probably only see it with some use on Goblins (and even then the extra five points for +1 WS and +1 Initiative to boot means it will be more a point filler / get-it-out-there than a first choice).


Gold Sigil Sword. I, personally, can't see any reason to take this. Only the attacks are at a buffed initiative (meaning no use to protect a character from a Purple Sun), and you striking first barely helps as you'll probably still be looking at ten-or-so models remaining to strike back afterwards. Can't see much use for this on an Orc or Goblin, so "Pass".


Sword of Striking. The bonus to "To Hit" rolls is nice, but unfortunately minimally useful. Orc Warbosses have the strength to use it, but are already WS6 or WS7 (a Chosen of Nurgle unit already being hit on 3's). Goblin characters have a high enough "base" weapon skill that either Martog's Best Basha (+1 WS instead of +1 to hit, but then more benefits) is enough to do the same or they can hit well enough already and need "To Wound" bonus'. Orc Big Bosses are giving up a Choppa for this weapon, so are striking at "just" S4 (not horrible, but with only three-to-five attacks not amazing either). For the most part, I'd say it's a pass.


Biting Blade. Get the same thing for 5pts less in the Orc Book, again because a standard item for the same cost (albeit Goblin Only) can get three times the penalty to armor saves. Since you can get -1 to armor saves with +1 strength as well (as well as To-Wound bonus'), limited usefulness for Orc characters who come with Choppas. Only real reason I can suggest it is the blade's a five point piece of wargear and still gives magical attacks: Give it to a Night Goblin Big Boss to slap a few wounds on an Ethereal unit that charged you / you charged.


Relic Sword. I can't really see this on anyone, barring a Goblin character with the Collar of Zorga too. 5's to wound is redundant on S5 Orc Warbosses (who, barring a T7 or tougher opponent, are already probably wounding on 5's or better), and practically so for most others as well (very few T6 or better units exist). Possibly useful for Greater Daemon distraction, take Goblin Big Boss / Warboss with this, the Collar of Zorga, and maybe a few other items for dirt cheap. Big scary chap now needs 6's to hit, and you have a chance of wounding back.


Shrieking Blade. So-so on this item. On one hand, potentially dropping an enemy to WS 1 means even Gobbos are hitting on 3's (and they're hitting on 4's now against you!). On the other, with leadership as it is this edition it's nigh impossible to work Fear effectively barring poor-leadership armies (those that don't exceed Ld. 8 on average) combined with lacks of BSB.


Tormentor Sword. See Shrieking blade for the drawback. There's also the problem that it's only useful against multi-wound models it's effective against, and that by the time you reach combat Stupidity is minimally useful. Oh, yeah, and you gave them a free Immune to Psychology. Unlike Shrieking blade, I'll give this a "Pass".


Warrior Bane. I'd only suggest this as it's 5pts for magical attacks, and it doesn't give the enemy any benefits at the same time.




Magic Armor:


Armour of Destiny. Takes up all a Hero's / half a Lord's magic slots, but isn't particularly bad. 4+ Ward is better than you can get with O&G-specific magic items, and Heavy Armor is better than some levels of characters can take normally. Great for durability, which considering you're often slower than enemy heroes isn't a bad thing. Biggest drawback is its points and a Magic Armor slot, meaning non-Orcs are at best getting a 3+ base save with this (although Orcs can still hit a 2+).


Trickster's Helm. Almost worth suggesting for an Orc Warboss (or even Big Boss), if only on the principal that you can hit a 1+ save and force a re-roll of successful To Wounds against a T5 model (which for several unit types means re-rolling sixes). Big drawback is that this can be, well, suicidal against Killing Blow enemies (Four hits by Executioners, three wounds. Re-roll, oh hey a six). I'd say it's technically better at around S4 or less for enemies, but once you get around S5 (or, worse, S6) and better the 4+ Ward is more effective.


Armour of Silvered Steel. While not necessarily bad (a 2+ base save), I can't really suggest this. You can get the same thing with no magical gear on a BOrc Character (or a 5pt piece of magic gear if a non BOrc), and for Goblins you're paying close to (if not over) their base cost for this protection. I may just be spoiled, though: I remember a 30pt 1+ Armor Save Magic Item, whereas now it's 50% more for one less point. Will say "Pass" on this one.


Armour of Fortune. See Armour of Destiny, but slightly cheaper with a slightly worse Ward. Again this item's not particularly bad, but doesn't really shine either. Main reason I can see using this (and, looking back on it, the Armour of Destiny too) is to save your Talisman slot for another piece of magical gear, instead of the Ward Save.


Helm of Discord. I'm not fond of this piece of armor, if only because its effect is reliant on a Leadership test. A test that can be modified, so hello (likely) Ld 9 or 10 w/ re-rolls. Useful for one-in-a-hundred surprises (Skulltaker cannot strike this round!), but for the most part you're paying 30pts for +1 to an armor save. Will say "Pass".


Glittering Scales. Slightly cheaper "Effigy of Mork". Has some use, in that it's still a penalty to hit giving a good durability boost (at the loss of only Light Armor instead of Heavy). Best base save you're getting is a 3+ (Light Armor + Shield + Boar), but you can still combine it with other Ward items (if put on a Lord) or (again on a Lord) go all-out for -2 to hit the bearer. Not going to suggest it overall, but will say it might have uses.


Shield of Ptolos. A 1+ save versus shooting, great against standard archers, crossbows, and repeater crossbows... but not much else. Meant for characters who have combined profiles with their mounts, and Orcs lack those (well, besides basic cavalry) so are often not going to need this. A Pass.


Spellshield. 16-18pts to give your unit a 6+ Ward against Direct Damage magic spells (5+ if Savage Orcs). Not amazing, but can have its uses at times (See: Savage Orcs w/ 5+ Ward versus direct damage spells).


Gambler's Armour. Follows the pattern of other magical Heavy Armors, the enchanted item equivalent for 5pts more. Difference being that a 6+ Ward save is rarely worth it on its own, so this one I'd (generally) give a pass. Only thing that saves it is it's "only" 20pts, so it's a cheap suit of armor for someone who normally can't take Heavy Armor (if I missed a rule on needing the mundane type before you can equip the magical version, then this becomes a "Pass").


Dragonhelm. I'd say it's, overall, worth it. Twice as much as an enchanted shield, but if you already have one (a shield, not an enchanted version) it's the same effect in addition to a 2+ ward versus flaming attacks. Price is what makes it worthwhile (it's cheaper than an army-book enchanted shield).


Enchanted Shield. Probably taken on a second character now instead of the main priority of durability. Dragon Helm is cheaper ATM (until new Orc book), and if you have a regular shield (see: Still cheaper than enchanted shield) you get a slightly better save on average to boot (due to the Ward against Flaming). Still worthwhile in many instances, for obvious reasons (+2 to armor save!).


Charmed Shield. Definitely worthwhile, sorta. If you have a character on the same base-size on the character as the unit they joined, it means that - likely - they'll be ignoring one of the following:

Cannonball / Template Weapon. You just avoided a multi-wound, possibly "wounding on 2's" attack on a 2+. Definitely worthwhile.
Champion / Character attack. If they put it towards the shield bearer, odds are it had at least a somewhat reasonable chance of wounding.
Rank & File. Normally not a big deal... if most of the "Rank and File" that dedicate attacks towards characters didn't have some trick up their sleeve (like, I 'unno, Killing Blow).

Often only 3-5pts more than a typical shield to boot.

Talismans now:

Talisman of Preservation. Everyone likes a 4+ Ward Save. Especially Orcs & Goblins, who can only get this in "naturally" in their army via an Amulet of Protectyness (and then only against attackers with a 4+ Ward). It's a bit pricey for my taste (I often stick with just a 5+ Ward to save the 10-15pts of magic points), but definitely has its use (See: Durability Warboss w/ T5, 1+ Save, 4+ Ward, and enemy must re-roll successful To Wound dice - say "Rarely wounded barring Special Characters and Run-Down").

Obsidian Lodestone. This looks - personally - like it'd work best on either a Cheapo Night Goblin Big Boss (buying his unit a 4+ Ward versus many spells for 75-80pts) or with a Savage Orc brick (3+ Ward versus direct damage magic). Useful for Boyz block too, but considering the price of a Hero / Lord Orc not quite as much.

Talisman of Endurance. Another Warboss 'Uum's Best Boss 'At, same cost even. About as suggestible as the 'At.

Obsidian Amulet. 66% the price of the Obsidian Lodestone, probably better for Savage Orcs. Still getting a 4+ versus magic there, and (sorta) making up for the fact that your 'Boss is a little over twice as much as a NG. Not quite as worth it for gobbo blocks since 4+ is much more impressive than 5+. Less useful for regular Boyz blocks.

Dawnstone. Can be useful, but you're probably putting it on a non-Ward character. Keep that in mind, and recall that you'll probably want to treat it as a "Ward" versus S6 or lower enemies (which at a 1+ natural save is the same thing as a 1+ / 4+ Ward outside Killing Blow or Lore of Metal). Better if you're expecting something without Killing Blow or No-Save gear.

Opal Amulet. Not very useful IMO, since it applies to the first would only and is 4+ to boot. You can essentially get the same thing for 1/3 the price in armor, and at +33% success to boot.

Obsidian Trinket. See the "Spellshield", but cut 5pts.

Talisman of Protection. We're already familiar with this item. For a typical Orc, just go Savage Orc and save 10pts / a Talisman Slot.

Seed of Rebirth. 5pts less for the same thing when facing non-flaming attacks. I still say just go Savage Orc for the natural 6+ Ward, it overall being more reliable.

Dragonbane Gem. Personally, I'd suggest the Dragonhelm. 5pts more and you get +1 to your Armor Save to boot. Can be useful, but highly situational (See: Against Wood Elves and Orcs).

Pidgeon Plucker Pendant. Sorta useful, sorta not. It's affordable / takes up very little points, and can be a 5+ Ward to boot (-25pts to get the same Ward versus a Dragon Lord). The catch is, when not fighting flying, it's minimally useful. As in, five points and a Talisman Slot wasted. I can suggest it, but bear in mind the limitation and that it's still only a 5+ Ward.

Luckstone. A Dawnstone at 20% the cost, and only a single use. Same limitation that if taking this you're probably not going to have a Ward Save (barring a Savage Orc).



Magic Standards are next:

Rampager's Standard. I'll say "pass", only because it requires a BSB and means you cannot take magical armor or defensive gear. A 3+ Save on a T5 BSB is nice, but still quick to drop with a few dedicated attacks. And you want your BSB alive. Otherwise, it's so-so useful: Short-range charges rarely need it, but long-range or very important ones could get that extra security (Need to charge with Grimgor, enemy unit is 10" away, you rolled a 1 for Waaagh, you need the 5+ on two dice but know that's still a good 10-20% failure rate).

Wailing Banner. You can cause Terror with an O&G unit! Too bad very few units outside the O&G book care about Terror. On the plus side, you don't need a BSB to take it and can take it alongside the Spirit Totem.

Ranger's Standard. Maybe put this on some Boar Boyz Big 'Un block - a large one - simply to have them plow through woods into someone's flank. Expensive block, but could be useful with a few characters. Only other gain is saying "Haha" to a Curse of Anraheir on a block of Black Orcs. Might be missing a good use for this, though.

Razor Standard. Since several Orc units can be S5 on the first round of combat, this can cause a world of hurt on heavily armored infantry (and in later rounds, light infantry without being a waste). The catch is it's still pricey for that upgrade: No more than four Big 'Uns / three Black Orcs, but still enough that - when combined that against 5+ and 6+ save enemies - it's wasteful in situations. Can be extremely useful against Dwarves and the like, though: Putting 18-24 attacks needing 3's to wound and giving only parry or 6/6+ (if those) on regular troops? Now Dwarves get to see what Orcs typically go through

War Banner. At 35pts for +1 Combat Resolution, I cannot really recommend it barring maybe on Boar Boy Big 'Uns. There it can sorta make up its points by having maybe a Static CR of 3 (One rank, Standard, War Banner), but in most places it's not going to really help with anything. The main thing to keep in mind with magic banners: Is it worth giving up +D6" to one charge, +1 Attack to each model in the front rank one round, or +3 Dispel Dice? In most cases (for the War Banner), no.

Banner of Swiftness. I can't really see this helping much, if only because your slow units are still slow, your fast units are still fast, and you shouldn't be spending more than two turns moving this edition anyways (Two turns movement = average 26-28" charge from your deployment zone by T3's mid-point). One advantage is that it's cheap, and in a few instances it might come in handy (See: Edge-hugging Dwarven / Empire Gunline).

Lichebone Pennant. Just take a Big Boss if you want MR(1). Seriously, you can get so much better with one of them. At the +40pts to get a BSB with this, you can get a Big Boss with the Obsidian Lodestone for just +5pts more. If put in a regular unit, it's a waste of their magic banner. Pass.

Standard of Discipline. Put it on BOrcs in a game you can't really fit a Warboss, perhaps? If you don't have a Lord, it's useful on BOrcs as they can be Ld9. Problem being you normally can fit a Lord if you can fit BOrcs. So, as a converse, perhaps put it on a massive BOrc (or even Big 'Un) Block with a non-General Lord, BSB, and go for enough Boyz (so at least a 3.5K point game) so that you can have a static Ld 10 Re-roll horde of nasty. So what if the general's fried? This unit is still 40+ 4+ save models (likely with a 4+ Ward versus Magic too) models that aren't going to break until you either bring them down to less ranks or - if a Big Boss is bought alongside the other two characters - until at least two characters are killed as well as a significant fraction of the unit. Useful in extremely large games, but smaller ones no dice.

Banner of Eternal Flame. Niche usefulness. Lots of buildings / Chaos Trolls / Wood Elves / Cavalry? Have some fun. Otherwise? Pass. Note this pass is due more to the fact that you can get more from other banners than what this banner does: Normally at +10pts, I'd suggest it handily. I just cannot do such when you might be giving up +3 DD or +D6" to a charge range for a potentially un-used attack bonus.

Gleaming Pennant. Useful for that one BOrc unit run along the flank of your lines outside your BSB and General's range. Well, if not for the whole "Giving up one of three Orc Army Book Banners" schtick. Sorta useful, but bear in mind your army can only ever have three magic banners tops unless taking Gorbad (in which case you'll be hard stretched to find a use for the Gleaming Pennant).

Scarecrow Banner. See Banner of Eternal Flame. It has some niche use, but is mostly non-recommended due to banners you're giving up.


Almost Done, Arcane Items:

Book of Ashur: Lord Only. +1 to Cast and Dispel. Since it's on a Lord at all times, can mean +5 to Cast (pointed out usefulness earlier) and Dispel (When at +4DD and enemy's at -1, not too shabby). It is very pricey, though, and again Lord Only. Normally, I'll say Pass: You shouldn't need each of these unless facing someone who can already say "Lolno" to your magic / attempts to Dispel.

Feedback Scroll. Unfortunately, very limited in use. If you could use it even on an IF casting, it'd be amazing (See: Watch Teclis take two wounds). Since you cannot, you're probably paying 50pts for maybe one wound on an enemy Wizard (maybe two if a Slaan).

Scroll of Leeching. Better, in my opinion, as you can use it against some Dark Elves who would love to add some Power Dice back to their pool. "Going to start with four PD to Chill Wind? Okay, go ahead. Thanks for the four PD." Still very limited, however, in that the same time it might be good to cash this is also probably the same time the enemy is running low on their own PD.

Sivejir's Hex Scroll. Niche like all the others. Characters it'd be most useful against (Level 4) still have a 66% ignoring rate, and against Level 2's and Level 1's they probably don't have the big spells you want to stop anyways. If it wasn't limited to Wizards Only, could be much more useful (See: Lord w/ Bound Spell turned into Frog).

Power Scroll. Sounds absolutely great... until you see the Miscast part. Useful if you really want to get that one "Waaagh!" spell off on your army, though: Take this scroll, gather six dice (if you have them), say "Gorka Morka!", and hope for at least one double from six dice. Your Orc Great Shaman's likely dead now, but hey you gave your army ASF, Re-Rolls, and a 2D6" charge in the bargain. Can be useful at times (See: Most of your forces need to get engaged). More often than not, however, you'll want to pass this: Blowing up your high point investment is rarely worth it.

Wand of Jet. At its point cost for one-use only, doesn't seem particularly useful to me. You get to be a Slaan for a single spell, and that's not really worth giving up the Staff of Baduum or Sneaky Stealin'.

Forbidden Rod. Maybe if you have a Savage Orc in a unit with an Obsidian Lodestone? To my understanding, FAQ makes these hits magical. That means a 3+ Ward versus these wounds, meaning on average only one wound tops. Bear in mind that its usefulness comes from having a second character dedicated to protecting the mage, meaning you likely just spent some 225pts (at least) for +D6 power dice a turn. Might be worth it to force an enemy to crack their Dispel Items early, though (Oh hai, enjoy a sudden pair of D6 S4 spells, a 2D6 S4 spell, D6 S6 spell, and Sixes-count-as-ones spell with your two PD).

Trickster's Shard. A better version of the Feedback Scroll, IMO. Problem is you can't Baduum's Staff and Trickster's Shard in the same turn. On a Level 4 (probably a Goblin in this case), put out as many spells as you can and hope the enemy keeps trying to Dispel. Very fun with Gork'll Fix It, wherein they risk either letting it go off or taking a hit on their Wizard.

Earthing Rod. Can be very handy for Orcs, if not for the "Staff of Baduum" schtick. Can see it going either way, though: Either you go for the Staff to charge up spells, or the Rod to give some durability against the Inevitable Miscast. You shouldn't be miscasting more than once / game with any individual Orc Wizard anyways (no spells demand more than 3D6, many demand no more than 2D6).

Dispel Scroll. Always a good decision... on a Scroll Caddy.

Power Stone. For when you want to Kamikaze a Night Goblin Shaman.

Scepter of Stability. Sorta useful, but typically the Staff of Sneaky Stealing trumps out.

Channelling Staff. You're Orcs, you have better ways of getting more dice / increased casting values.

Scroll of Shielding. If combines with Magic Resistance, might be good to combine with an Obsidian Amulet for the 2+ Ward against a specific spell. Goblin Shaman making that 3D6 Fireball into a 1-3 wound impact, always worth the laugh. Not very much use overall however, so typically I'll say pass.


Lastly, Enchanted Items:

Wizarding Hat. Put this on a Night Goblin Warboss. Why? About 20-50pts more than most armies' Level 2 Hero Wizards with no upgrades. Considering this guy can have a 4+ save (well, 5+ unless cavalry) and be put in a relatively cheap (who am I kidding: plain ol' cheap) block of NG's for about 300pts, very good. Risky in that you could wind up with a so-so Lore, great in that - if lucky - you can either buff up Azhag (by taking away at least one spell he wouldn't want) or some units with some nasty BRB Lores (Savage Orcs w/ Okkam's Mindrazor, Boar Boyz w/ Birona's Timewarp, S10 A10 Grimgor).

Fozzrik's Folding Fortress. This isn't quite as useful, but does have its uses none the less. Got a block with a General, Standard, and BSB in a 3K point game of Blood & Glory? Take this, shove said block in the building, enjoy (hopefully) Ld9 or Ld10 Stubborn Re-Roll Block that's probably never going to drop barring overkill unit thrust against it. Have a flank your really want protected? The building buys you three turns: Once to enter, once to exit, once to charge from. Of course, keep in mind its very pricey tag.

Arabyan Carpet. If only Maad's Map could be taken with this. :( As it stands, mixed. You can probably use it as an alternative to Maad's Map for having a character quickly running along the War Machines of an enemy's army. If really bored / sadistic, some form of Orc Warboss with this and Basha's Blood Axe. By turn two, have said character ready to run up the opponent's gunline / war machines. 'Course, a Hero can probably come close (5 WS5 S5 is usually more than enough) for better, so this is just me stating a "for fun" use. Which, frankly, is probably all it will be used for when it comes down to such things.

Crown of Command. Give a unit perma-stubborn. Always a good decision, especially if you have Gorbad around. Makes a block dead 'ard when within BSB range.

Healing Potion. Not worth it, in my opinion. Actually, I can't see many Non-Ogre armies using this overall. Pass.

Featherfoe Torc. See the Pidgeon Plucker Pendant. 'Course, can be fun at times: Gobbo Bigboss w/ the Collar of Zorga meaning Dragon needs 6's / 6's to hit in Close Combat. Sure, Thunder Stomp will probably do him in, but watching the 6-8 attacks completely wiff is sometimes worth the loss in competitiveness. Very niche in use.

Ruby Ring of Ruin. A slightly more expensive Nibbla's 'Itty Ring, that's less suicidal too! Too bad it won't do much damage. :( Sorta worth it to give a Shaman a pair of D6 S4 hits. D6 with each spell, 66% and 50% (respectively) if starting with the Ring and concentration doesn't break if the first fails.

The Terrifying Mask of Eee! Terror but you cannot use the model's leadership... is there anything better for a Night Goblin Big Boss? Well, yes, but if - for some reason - Leadership isn't a sure thing on your opponent's side, it can be useful for trying to break someone. Usually a Pass, however, since (again) Leadership is often a joke 8th Edition.

Potion of Strength. +3 Strength is sorta nice, but most characters who can take this either cannot really capitalize on this (S6+ Orc Warbosses), have better options (Wallopa's One Hit Wunda), or want to use those extra points for something else. Predominantly pass.

Potion of Toughness. Pass on everything except suicide-challenge Gobbo Big Boss. Orc Warbosses are T5 already, so most foes already need 5's or 6's. Worse, T8 isn't untouchable by S4 or lower - anything can hurt anything now. Suicide Gobbo Big Boss is suggested simply to go from something doing 3's / 3's or 3's / 2's to 3's / 6's or 3's / 5's. Cheap enough to fit with Glittering Scales too, meaning said Suicide Shaman is now going from smashed on 3's / 2's (Scary Dragon) to 4's / 5's. Massively reduced overkill, meaning greater chance of victory in unit. Heck, you can even upgrade this to an Orc for the BSB unit just to really kick someone in the teef (From the Moon Dragon being 3's / 3's to 4's / 6's, and the rider likely likewise, you just made the enemy watch their devastating charge turn into "Oh, you had static CR 5... bugger."). Essentially: Use it on a Challenge-Soaking character.

The Other Trickster's Shard. 10pts less than Tricksy Trinket, almost as good. Rerolling 5's is a drop from 33.3% to 11.1% on injured Daemons, or another two wounds out of every ten inflicted. Main appeal is it doesn't require a Goblin - meaning said unit actually has a shot of wounding outside characters / being slapped in a Chariot. Very contextually limited, though.

Ironcurse Icon. Have 5pts to kill? Might as well give a unit a 6+ Ward versus War Machines. Not much on its own, but can be fun turning Orc Boyz into Savage Orc Boyz-lite against an Empire Gunline.

Potion of Foolhardiness. See above "Have 5pts to kill?" Not really enough to take on its own (Versus Killing Blow, +1 Attack, S6 Explosions, Disabling Ward Saves, Stubborn, and so on), but if you have the points to spare that one charge at +1 Attack could be good.

Potion of Speed. +3 Initiative is so-so. Orcs are probably going last anyways, and probably have enough models to spare that you don't care either way. On the other hand, see above "Have five points to kill?" Who knows, might be useful getting 7 S5 attacks from a Goblin Warboss before the enemy hits you as you ram their flanks.

So would an exclusively goblin army be practical in 8th edition? I was thinking Spider riding Goblin lord with a good load of spider riders on a flank. 1-3 Casters and some 30-50 strong units of night goblins with a smattering of fanatics. Most of the units armed with spears and shields with 1 or two with shortbows. Then have some snotling units as missile screens. With doom diver and other warmachines for some ranged support. Maybe some combat heros to add to units if points allow. I have the Skull pass set and was pondering on using the goblins still sitting in the box.

i think youll find yourself beyond frustrated with their abyssmal leadership. that and their BSB being ridiculously easy to kill, even being steadfast your guys will boogie more often than not. i really think you have to have some orcs to keep the little ones in line.

especially gorbag. that guy is insane.

Lexx wrote:So would an exclusively goblin army be practical in 8th edition? I was thinking Spider riding Goblin lord with a good load of spider riders on a flank. 1-3 Casters and some 30-50 strong units of night goblins with a smattering of fanatics. Most of the units armed with spears and shields with 1 or two with shortbows. Then have some snotling units as missile screens. With doom diver and other warmachines for some ranged support. Maybe some combat heros to add to units if points allow. I have the Skull pass set and was pondering on using the goblins still sitting in the box.

For Night Goblin Shamans, you want (of course) only about 6 Magic Levels tops. Typically, I'd suggest three Hero-levels as you can get them for about 260pts before upgrades (besides Level 2, of course). I suggest Level 2 as you are probably going to be throwing at least two dice / spell even if Lord Level, so you might as well spread the points more evenly. For them, I might suggest a bound spell / item on each: You can fit three Bound Items for (if I'm not mistaken) another 85-95 points (So 340-350 total), and the point here is that each of these takes a Single D6. Two should be Power Level 3, meaning 66% chance of putting either D6 S4 hits or a character-targeting S5 hit w/ no save, and should you fail that's no broken concentration (using that ring is a surefire way to get a DElf player to burn Dispel Dice as they protect their Ring of Hotek carrier from getting gibbed on a 2+ and thus losing their anti-magic bubble).

For a General, you'll probably want someone other than the Spider-Riding Lord. He'll be a good combat support for the Spider Riders (Never underestimate Ld. 8's advantage over Ld. 6 - you go to passing a little over 50% of all unmodified leadership tests now), but keep in mind that they lose Fast Cavalry with him there so you might as well throw a Wolf Big Boss or Warboss in the front rank too for just a little extra oomph on the charge (Giant Spider + Giant Wolf = 3 Displaced Front, so you can still fit three Spider Riders in the front and as such full command / at least a Standard & Musician).

For a BSB, you'll probably want to sacrifice a non-magical banner for durability. You can go for a magic banner if you want, but the Standard of Discipline is the only one I can really think of (since it means a single Goblin / Night Goblin unit could be Leadership 9 if given its own Lord). Predominantly, I'd suggest protection. I can think of a few defensive combinations, but I'm not quite sure to the legality of each (Mainly because I do not know if you can buy a magic suit of Heavy Armor for something that can only take Light). Silvered Steel might be a good choice for an on-foot Goblin, with a either an Opal Amulet (for a one-time 2+ / 4+ save, with a 2+ save hereafter), Dragonbane Gem (banking on Flaming Attacks being what targets them), or Luckstone (which against S5 or under is a cheaper Opal Amulet).

For Night Goblin units, you'll at least want one-to-two Fanatics for each. If you can, put some Netters in there too: Against S5 or less they still provide some advantage (S6 for characters): 83% of the time, your Silvered Steel dude now has a 2+ save against S4 or under, and with a Luckstone 3+ re-roll once on S5. The Fanatics are going to want to do the thrown-from-corner / through block tactic, just because forcing an enemy to land on top both doubles the damage and removes their threat against your own lines. Lastly, you'll probably want at least two characters of some sort in each Night Goblin unit - either Hero or Lord. They will be your main source of active combat resolution, which is necessary as no matter how deep you pile your Goblins you're still getting only a Ld8 Re-Roll with a BSB.

Snotlings, for the most part, aren't useful now that they are (having checked the back of the BRB) Swarms. The provide some soft cover on equal-height terrain, but they don't really offer much now. They're T2, 3 Wounds, Static Combat Resolution 0, and lose a wound for every point they're beaten by. Someone causing six wounds on Snotlings with three ranks, a standard, and charging, even if the Snotlings cause two wounds back, just killed four bases. Snotling Pump Wagons sort of have a use in that they can at least run behind your lines smashing anything trying to Ambush / Outflank with 2D6 S4 hits in an attempt to maul them / buy some time.

Doom Divers & War Machines are always a good choice. Personally, I'd suggest Doom Divers right now over Rock Lobbers, as on larger bases they're doing more damage and smaller they can still inflict the pain.

Thanks Minsc. Another good read. And its given me a lot of food for thought. Will definitely look into the 2-3 lvl 2 shamans with bound spells. Keeping the spider warboss for bigger battles ( love the model). Pretty much sold already on that night goblin tactic. Ill be going for a mundane banner bearer. Think with what I have planned Ill have 6-9 characters depending on the points being fielded. And about 200 Goblin infantry! The whole army actually gave me an idea for a fun giant conversion. A small howda on the giants back with goblins steering him and firing bows. Plus yes I shall drop snotlings then. Swarms make them meh again. Will use the points to flesh out hero equipment.

Lexx wrote:Will definitely look into the 2-3 lvl 2 shamans with bound spells.

Six power dice yields four spells, potentially, with only two chances of miscast a turn and - if done in order - no chance of broken concentration. With Orcs I often go with a single Level 4, but that's because I can put out 2/3rds the spells with a 97% success rate and an average of 11-13 on 2D6 to boot (Well, Goblins can get the same average, but are lacking in that only three spells benefit from the 97% success rate).

Only risk with magic-heavy Shamans is that they'll inevitably start hurting themselves, either from the 16% chance of injury from magic item use (Ask staff / people running in your area beforehand: Some people have them only risk injury on successful use, some force you to use RAW and try even when the casting failed).

Lexx wrote:Ill be going for a mundane banner bearer.

Protection is often the best way to go, mainly because re-rolling Ld8 is essentially giving you a 75% success rate to hold instead of 50%. Doesn't hurt that with the new common magic items you can get a Goblin BSB with a 4+ Ward Save or 2+ Armor Save now.

Lexx wrote:And about 200 Goblin infantry! The whole army actually gave me an idea for a fun giant conversion. A small howda on the giants back with goblins steering him and firing bows. Plus yes I shall drop snotlings then. Swarms make them meh again. Will use the points to flesh out hero equipment.

Giants are always fun. Not exactly the most competitive, but even on a bad day they're firemagnets: On good days Archaon winds up in someone's stomach.

Funny / great thing is that even split between about five units of forty w/ spears, full command, netters, and x2 Fanatics; even with that Giant; even with three L2 Shamans w/ an average of twenty points in magic gear each; even with a BSB and Lord, you're just barely scraping along the 2000pt spot. Six magic levels, five characters, five bricks, ten Fanatics, and a Giant, barely hitting 2K. When Goblins go for masses, they really go for masses.

Something I've been looking at recently is increasing the size of my wolfrider blocks and using them differently. The change to war machine close combat (only 6 models can attack the war machine, 2 models if cavalry or monstrous) means that you get 4 attacks (2 goblins, 2 wolves). Against a 3 man war machine crew, this isn't much of an advantage, if one at all. You also lose the outnumbering bonus, but get a charge bonus for static combat resolution.

The other significant change, however, is (as far as I can tell) that fast cavalry are no longer restricted from getting rank bonuses. Perhaps I keep missing it in the rule book, but I so far haven't seen this 7th edition restriction. As wolfriders are pretty cheap for fast cavalry, this does give them some options for getting rank bonuses, and therefore negating ranks. 10 technically will do the job, but between possible shooting casualties and close combat wounds, you probably want some spare. An intact 5x2 block, however, would get 10 spear-armed goblin attacks, 5 wolf attacks, get the flank bonus, and break ranks. With shooting, they'll get 10 shots while marching if you decide to arm them with bows. It's a pretty useful utility combat unit. It's not as cheap as the 5-6 goblin units I used to use, but it's in the same ballpark as a 25 strong block of orcs.

Biophysical wrote:Something I've been looking at recently is increasing the size of my wolfrider blocks and using them differently. The change to war machine close combat (only 6 models can attack the war machine, 2 models if cavalry or monstrous) means that you get 4 attacks (2 goblins, 2 wolves). Against a 3 man war machine crew, this isn't much of an advantage, if one at all. You also lose the outnumbering bonus, but get a charge bonus for static combat resolution.

Probably a one-to-two point static resolution advantage, either rank & charge, standard & charge, or just plain ol' charge.

Biophysical wrote:The other significant change, however, is (as far as I can tell) that fast cavalry are no longer restricted from getting rank bonuses. Perhaps I keep missing it in the rule book, but I so far haven't seen this 7th edition restriction. As wolfriders are pretty cheap for fast cavalry, this does give them some options for getting rank bonuses, and therefore negating ranks. 10 technically will do the job, but between possible shooting casualties and close combat wounds, you probably want some spare. An intact 5x2 block, however, would get 10 spear-armed goblin attacks, 5 wolf attacks, get the flank bonus, and break ranks. With shooting, they'll get 10 shots while marching if you decide to arm them with bows. It's a pretty useful utility combat unit. It's not as cheap as the 5-6 goblin units I used to use, but it's in the same ballpark as a 25 strong block of orcs.

Personally, I'd suggest small Spider Rider units. They're just as expensive as Wolf Riders w/ Spears and Bows, same save, and are slightly better in hand-to-hand to boot (Poisoned steed attacks at I4) while at a slightly reduced movement speed.

Biophysical wrote:The change to war machine close combat (only 6 models can attack the war machine, 2 models if cavalry or monstrous) means that you get 4 attacks (2 goblins, 2 wolves).

This is a mistake I've seen a lot of people make (and made myself at first). 6 cavalry can attack a war machine. Only 2 monstrous cavalry can attack a war machine.

The rule says "monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts each count as 3 models when selected to fight a war machine." Your clue that it only affects monstrous cavalry is that there is no type "beasts" (only war beasts or monstrous beasts).

Sounds like Killjoy has it spot out. Shouldnt be too hard at all to take out a warmachine in combat with spider riders or wolf riders.

Killjoy00 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:The change to war machine close combat (only 6 models can attack the war machine, 2 models if cavalry or monstrous) means that you get 4 attacks (2 goblins, 2 wolves).

This is a mistake I've seen a lot of people make (and made myself at first). 6 cavalry can attack a war machine. Only 2 monstrous cavalry can attack a war machine.

The rule says "monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts each count as 3 models when selected to fight a war machine." Your clue that it only affects monstrous cavalry is that there is no type "beasts" (only war beasts or monstrous beasts).

That... makes Spider Riders all the better. Statistically, that's one wounded crew member from poison alone. Considering it's very easy to get six other hits out of 11+ other attacks, that's likely a second wound. Meaning that even a full-wound Elf Bolt Thrower is likely dropping just from wounds, and that three-plus crew War Machines are going to be losing anywhere from 2-5 points by combat's end (depending on standards, if they wound, potential ranks, etcetera).

I wasn't thinking about spider riders, as I don't have any, but yes, they are definitely the light cav of choice for a lot of applications. The lower movement matters less in 8th, and the initiative on the spiders is worth something. Looking at the war machine close combat rule again, I think Killjoy is correct, and small groups remain viable.

I was looking at alternatives to fast cav for war machine hunting (and general mayhem), and taking into account the lack of slot restrictions, I figured a Night Goblin Warboss with Maad's Map might be a reasonable option.

At base cost, it's 80 points. For this you get something that can deploy up to stop vanguard moves, threaten war machines, some small units of skirmishers and some units of fast cavalry. For minimal points, you can give it an AHW, or a great weapon (but this loses its initiative advantage). Depending on the size of the game, you could make it much more reliable by adding some protection, a ward save would be valuable to avoid bolt throwers, cannons, and stone throwers, as would the charmed shield.

The Akkrit Axe (can goblins take this, I don't have my book with me) could reasonably let him drop a war machine crew in one turn, allowing overrun into another war machine if they were deployed nearby. Martog's is another pretty cheap weapon option.

More equipment makes him more survivable, and gives him more options for targets to engage, but it's still tough to put on a unit that a bolt thrower can ruin in 1 shot.

Akrit Axe is takeable by goblins. My general will be taking that.

Minsc wrote:That... makes Spider Riders all the better. Statistically, that's one wounded crew member from poison alone. Considering it's very easy to get six other hits out of 11+ other attacks, that's likely a second wound. Meaning that even a full-wound Elf Bolt Thrower is likely dropping just from wounds, and that three-plus crew War Machines are going to be losing anywhere from 2-5 points by combat's end (depending on standards, if they wound, potential ranks, etcetera).

I'm pretty sure you use the crew's toughness when fighting in close combat, so if you get 6 cavalry models, the 12 or so attacks you get from 6 riders and mounts shouldn't have any problem with most war machines. Spiders, with poison, initiative, and the strider bonuses they get just put the odds a bit more in your favor.