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Oh, and another reason people think codex creep exists is when an army gets a new codex and they didn't get rid of things that were broken (in a too powerful way), while their own codex had said broken things removed. That or having broken things get taken away, creating the illusion that your codex is worse and therefore bad, while new codecies are better balanced.

I mean, seriously, codex creep exists because GW changed SMF? The only people who complain about that are people who never played with anything other than hoards of skimmers against people who never had any of their own...

dark6spectre wrote:i clicked.... oh crap i can't remember now what i clicked... i think it was either 'indifferent' or 'don't like it'

well, i have a DA army and i love DA, they are the awesome mysterious badass space marine dudes, but at the moment they have a really weak codex, especially compared to the new SM codex, which has just nicked pretty much all the stuff which made Dark angels a good army, and then added even more stuff.

Agreed. The SM Scout back squads are nearly as good as the Ravenwing who are supposed to be the best short of the White Scars. Then Loganwing pops up and ousts the Deathwing who is supposed to be the best period. We have a little glimmer in our snipers but thats about it.

Here is a question? I don't want to start anthing, but I was wondering how many peaple that compain about Codex Creep have played the "Latest" Codex that "Codex Creep" was Attached to?

Creep is real. The same thing happens in other games. Paladiums Rifts anyone?

FacelessMage wrote:Creep is real. The same thing happens in other games. Paladiums Rifts anyone?

RIFTS dose not count, It is juast a Wet Deam for Power Gamers

all armies will eventually have their time in the sun... it will come again

I really do not see it as a problem, I think in some cases it is but that is more of the player than the book itself. I play competitively but fun(basically if I see 3 lists on warseer that are identical to the one I was writing I scrap it and start fresh). Like there are a lot of things in the newer books that make them stand out, however that is because they are new. Let people learn to overcome them and they are not too bad. It is less of a power creep and more of a need to adapt.

As for power creep, comparing new books to a book that was designed for a different edition is not quite accurate. Look at the Dark Eldar book for 3rd edition. The point costs are atrocious compared to now but when it came out units were priced differently. Space Marine Jump troopers have come down almost 10 points since then. So as the rules changed different types became better or worse, it is something that changes over time. At the time the DA came out I am sure they were priced appropriately for the time.

I don't mind it too much, mainly because I'm a bit more interested in the hobby aspect of the game. If I was a hardcore player I could see how it could get annoying though.

I think that its good because it keeps the game from stagnating, but at the same time it should be done more evenly. I'm not saying change everything, but I think the SMs need to stop getting so OP, and that a lot of the older, more broken codices need some attention. If a codex is playable and competetive, leave well enough alone IMHO. Focus on the broken ones before you decide to give the SM's another unnecessary update or another redundant codex.

id like it better if they did all the codex's at once instead of from time to time because then the ones left out are either way OP like crons or way weak

Blitza da warboy wrote:It doesnt exist. There are only broken armies. (im looking at you IG!)

Are you kidding me?

Oh Im sorry that IG are no longer the laughing stock of the game anymore... like they have been for years and years. Even now the new Codex has ALOT of room for improvement.

Yes, we have lots of tank options.... but with the crappy squadren rules, tank variants that nobody will take due to being obsolete, and high base cost and insane upgrade costs they are worse now then before.

Over cost codex units (Stormtroopers/ogryn, All LR tanks)
Worthless/WTF codex units (RoughRiders, Penal Legion, Ratlins, Deathstrike)
Loss of several army wise skills/units that drastically altered many army lists (Drop Troops, single base Heavy Weapons, Skills like shartshooter, nerfed vox casters ect ect)
And several lackluster Special Characters leave many a Vet guard player wanting for something better. Espically after the stupid long wait we had to endure from the last codex update.

I won't deny that we got some cool new stuff (Valk, Banewolf) however...all we really got this update was ALOT of stuff that we once had and was taken away in the past (Griffion, Hydra, alot of the special characters ect ect) but it just doesn't feel good enough.

We got a shift in power all right.... just instead of going up the ladder.. we just shifted sideways and am strong in new areas instead.

@jp400, at least you're not Necrons. We got hit so hard by the nerf hammer its not even funny

dark6spectre wrote:i clicked.... oh crap i can't remember now what i clicked... i think it was either 'indifferent' or 'don't like it'

well, i have a DA army and i love DA, they are the awesome mysterious badass space marine dudes, but at the moment they have a really weak codex, especially compared to the new SM codex, which has just nicked pretty much all the stuff which made Dark angels a good army, and then added even more stuff.

Ba codex did the same to the marine codex. It seems you should just repaint your marines every once in a while.

I think most armies can win consistently as long as the player is smart.
Obviously all armies have, at one time or another, certain units that are worth taking over all other units in the army, and these can unbalance the game somewhat at times.

All armies will at some point be the 'best' out there, or near to it, at the time they are updated. It all kind of works out in the end. As someone said 'All armies have their time in the sun'.

The one thing that I would like to see, is the Tau's Pulse Rifles being made Heavy 2, and their Carbines Assault 2. Sounds weird but bear with me. The Heavy classification could be explained fluff wise by the fact they take longer to focus on far away objects, and as time for them to set up disciplined firing lines. The Assault for the carbines is because they are smaller and lighter. This would mean there is finally a real reason to take carbines (lets face it, Pinning is not a good trade off for rapid fire) and would go some way to making the Tau the extremely shooty army they are meant to be.
At the moment, we are not really any more shooty that most other armies, and seeing as how we have no close combat abilities (bar the Kroot) this is unfair. Perhaps some more ally races for CC abilities, GW?

I'll keep this short, seeing how in the time it took me to complete a shift at work many of you have already brought up many points that i would have brought up...

With that being said my only beef is that the codex's come out the same time vs. one at a time drawn out over a year+.

Like the release of Blood Angles/Space Wolves codexs, many people near where i live who play basic vanilla space marines have talked about flocking over to "convert". I my self am going to hold on to my self mix vanilla with my dash of sprinkles * Demon Hunter / Witch Hunter allies *, and not jump on the band wagon for whats hot and fresh. But i do like to see all the new things that come with the new codex's.

But like stated above... would prefer to see all at once or over a very short period of say a few months vs. year-years for one army list to be updated to the rest.

I've gone through this discussion many times on the Star Wars miniatures boards.

It's so much about power creep, it's more about marketing. GW need to sell their latest codex and army. If it's crap only a handful of dedicated fans will buy it, so they have to make to appealing, thus they have to make it very good.

So I just see it for what it is, marketing. And that is not going to change in any game.

somecallmeJack wrote:I voted that I hate it, because my feelings towards the imbalance is stronger than dislike.

In truth however, I doubt its a scheme to get people to buy more models, I think its more like GW just arent organised or disciplined enough to update all the codices/army books before the most popular ones get a second update.

Totally, and they probably aren't as competitive as us Americans. My friends from the other side of the pond say of us, "You are all just too damn earnest!" We tend to be into a fair fight with all having equal chances of winning. The designers don't take that to heart, so books tend to be, "Cool", rather than balanced. I just wish they would playtest some core lists that we could use to play balance scenarios.

Paul J.

As a loyal Dark Angels player, it is annoying that I am constantly barraged by players going, "really? Dark Angels? good luck with that..." It would make more sense if GW tried to put out codexes closer together, but then again, the price would increase as they hire more and more gametesters and writers...

Zero sum

Here's an idea, how about codex updates released online? They already do the errata and FAQs, how much of a hassle would it be to do the same thing but with pts changes and the like? For example, the necrons codex. Everyone can agree that pariahs and tomb sipders are overpriced for what they do. So GW releases a thing that says they are now worth X pts. People still need to pay for the dex to play them, as the stats and the like aren't in there, but it would maintain the games balance.

Think of it like the updates to computer games like Dawn of War II.

As a bonus, OP things could get nerfed in a similar way.

What do you guys think?

I voted the second option down, though my opinion of it replaces the words "i like it" with "i don't mind it"

Freelancer48 wrote:Here's an idea, how about codex updates released online? They already do the errata and FAQs, how much of a hassle would it be to do the same thing but with pts changes and the like? For example, the necrons codex. Everyone can agree that pariahs and tomb sipders are overpriced for what they do. So GW releases a thing that says they are now worth X pts. People still need to pay for the dex to play them, as the stats and the like aren't in there, but it would maintain the games balance.

i think this is a great idea. GW obviosly cant be bothered to re-realease the codex and all this takes is a few people sitting down and discussing it for a while, and once they've decided to go ahead with it, it's just a few tippy taps on the keyboard and bingo! This will doubly benefit them as they'll make their customers happy (especially the necron players) and sell more pariahs and tomb spiders as a result! What's not to like GW?

I wonder how many Necron players screaming nerf have a necron army that dosent touch the ground?
Ie. the Necron players that smoked my Eldar all over the place cause of all the damned destroyers they would use, and a single token block of warriors?????
How many of you floaters are out there? lets see some hands!!!
Necrons got nerfed cause they the players turned it into a monolith backed, skimmer army. All necron players i have played against have completely ignored the spirit of the models and mathed out a badass army. Which is fine and dandy. I played against a dozen Necron players and the army lists differed in only two areas. One Lord on skimmer or with the token warriors.
And the second variation i saw and played against was whether they should deploy with the monolith on the table or deep strike it to squeeze an extra foot of move out of a single turn.
necrons were broken, and they got fixed not nerfed.

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:I wonder how many Necron players screaming nerf have a necron army that dosent touch the ground?
Ie. the Necron players that smoked my Eldar all over the place cause of all the damned destroyers they would use, and a single token block of warriors?????
How many of you floaters are out there? lets see some hands!!!
Necrons got nerfed cause they the players turned it into a monolith backed, skimmer army. All necron players i have played against have completely ignored the spirit of the models and mathed out a badass army. Which is fine and dandy. I played against a dozen Necron players and the army lists differed in only two areas. One Lord on skimmer or with the token warriors.
And the second variation i saw and played against was whether they should deploy with the monolith on the table or deep strike it to squeeze an extra foot of move out of a single turn.
necrons were broken, and they got fixed not nerfed.

Woah man, what's with the flame? I was just using the necrons as an example. Everyone can benifit from GW changing the points on stuff around in between codices. Both nerfing and improving. If GW could change the points values on stuff, they could fix things soooo fast, the game would become infinitely more balanced.

Besides, can you blame the necron players for making the most out of what GW gives them? I mean, it's like saying "freaking ork players taking boyz all the time, what the hell?"

Freelancer48 wrote:

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:I wonder how many Necron players screaming nerf have a necron army that dosent touch the ground?
Ie. the Necron players that smoked my Eldar all over the place cause of all the damned destroyers they would use, and a single token block of warriors?????
How many of you floaters are out there? lets see some hands!!!
Necrons got nerfed cause they the players turned it into a monolith backed, skimmer army. All necron players i have played against have completely ignored the spirit of the models and mathed out a badass army. Which is fine and dandy. I played against a dozen Necron players and the army lists differed in only two areas. One Lord on skimmer or with the token warriors.
And the second variation i saw and played against was whether they should deploy with the monolith on the table or deep strike it to squeeze an extra foot of move out of a single turn.
necrons were broken, and they got fixed not nerfed.

Woah man, what's with the flame? I was just using the necrons as an example. Everyone can benifit from GW changing the points on stuff around in between codices. Both nerfing and improving. If GW could change the points values on stuff, they could fix things soooo fast, the game would become infinitely more balanced.

Besides, can you blame the necron players for making the most out of what GW gives them? I mean, it's like saying "freaking ork players taking boyz all the time, what the hell?"

Lol no not really. It was kinda heavy handed wasnt it? my apologies.
I do like that GW forced everyone to use their troop choices more often, and gave a really good reason for it. It is unfortunate in the current rules that the Necrons took the biggest hit though.
The skimmer thing, not so bad. The troop choices again not so bad they have awesome troop choices. But the not able to assault after deep strike, that really stretched thier O-rings. Add to that the swarm bases just dont cut the mustard for cover anymore.
But its not like they are saddled with the worst though, thier destroyers still rock. The lord choices are still wicked, their Immortals are still overpriced but hit real hard. And they still have their monolith.

God save the Monolith.

Not that the Monolith needs the help...

Freelancer48 wrote:God save the Monolith.

Not that the Monolith needs the help...

I wonder what i could aim at a Monolith, from my Nids list to pop it?
I havent got the new codex for them yet. But I know my Marines will likely send volleys of Missiles and Lasguns at them in a vain but glorious 2 turns, then itll be in range and Ill die
Still they were a little easy to take advantage of in 4th dont you think?

Also, do you REALLY want them to release all codecies simultaneously every five years?

Think about it. Let's say that they didn't balance it right (GW not balancing? Gasp!) This means that everyone would figure out which are the best armies and everyone would be stuck in the mud for 5 years. There wouldn't really be a point to playing a non-first tier army, other than because you liked the minis.

Instead, a flexible release schedule allows them to tweak the balance as they go, and allows them to re-release more broken codecies faster, while leaving good codecies (like old ork or old guard) unchanged for longer. Of course, theory and practice breaks down (like Necron or DE), but I don't think that people are really thinking through the rammifications of if they did it some other way.

Ailaros wrote:Also, do you REALLY want them to release all codecies simultaneously every five years?

Think about it. Let's say that they didn't balance it right (GW not balancing? Gasp!) This means that everyone would figure out which are the best armies and everyone would be stuck in the mud for 5 years. There wouldn't really be a point to playing a non-first tier army, other than because you liked the minis.

Instead, a flexible release schedule allows them to tweak the balance as they go, and allows them to re-release more broken codecies faster, while leaving good codecies (like old ork or old guard) unchanged for longer. Of course, theory and practice breaks down (like Necron or DE), but I don't think that people are really thinking through the rammifications of if they did it some other way.

12-14 army books at 40-50 bucks a pop every 5 years would be murder on the wallet too, lets say they give you a volume discount and round it off to 400 bucks its still steep.
I dont mind the way they release the books as much I wish they would slow down. Enough Marines already lol.

Those who fear or are reluctant to change should be destroyed.

When one army creeps, all the armies left behind learn to SPAM everything good they have and ignore the stuff that doesn't compete any more (anybody seen any Vypers or Falcons lately? Bet you see a heck of a lot more Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents... that is if you see any Eldar at all...)

I don't like that it has to become that. When a badass powerhouse codex comes out (SW/BA), all the leftover older codex have to spam their cheese to compete and the older armies all become bland clones of each other if they hope to keep up with the newest thing. So many units in my Codex are simply not viable any more, and a few are still full of awesomeness. So just like any other Eldar army, I have had to go mech in order to accommodate JotWW and deep-striking land-raiders and Baal predators oh my (not to mention psykic tyranids more powerful than Eldrad, Orks in 30 mob units with hidden powerklaws)

Sometimes I look at old books and think they are fortunate because they have a lot more leeway with 'armory' options so they can adapt. We who are caught in the middle (Tau, Eldar, DA, regular SM, CSM) of the creep have the hardest time adapting other than spamming what works for us in order to keep up.

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:I wonder how many Necron players screaming nerf have a necron army that dosent touch the ground?

What about us Necron players that didn't scream nerf? =D

Anyway, I put the "I like" option. I don't really mind armies becoming stronger/more powerful. What I do mind is how strong/powerful they become (Imperium armies), who becomes more powerful/strong (Imperium armies) and the frequency it happens (it's averaging about ~3 40k codices a year? 90% being Imperium since 5th ed). I say maybe change it to just 2 armies per year - 1 imperium, 1 xenos. That'd seem the most "fair" or "balanced" to me. Well, really, just for variety. Any thoughts? GW will make $ regardless, so I'll ignore the fact GW spams SM to make $

As for the existence of "creep", I'm not sure. I've heard of codex updates (not BGB updates) that actually nerf armies...so...

I really wish i could comment on WHFB...but i can't!