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xxmatt85 wrote:An IG shotgun to a SM shotgun is to a autogun to a bolter.

You mean the IG shotgun is an efficient, reliable, and cheap weapon, while the SM shotgun is an inefficient, complex, and expensive one?

Shotguns come in different sizes IRL.

It stands to reason an SM would carry a larger bore piece, and an Ogryn would carry an even larger one, which would deliver correspondingly greater damage.

The IG weapon is probably 12 bore.

The SM weapon is probably 10 bore or even 8.

The Ogryn weapon might even be a dismounted punt gun, which could be a 4 bore. A punt gun is more like a small smoothbore cannon than a shoulder arm.

xxmatt85 wrote:An IG shotgun to a SM shotgun is to a autogun to a bolter.

I think you mixed your order up there a bit...

Che-Vito wrote:

xxmatt85 wrote:An IG shotgun to a SM shotgun is to a autogun to a bolter.

I think you mixed your order up there a bit...

No, he didn't. Shotgun of mid-power used by IG is compared to shotun of greater power used by SM. This is the same relationship as the mid-power rapid fire weapon used by the IG, in comparison to the greater power rapid fire weapon used by SM.

The autogun uses simplistic, efficient, and effective ammunition, and is easy to maintain and durable. Not as reliable as a lasgun, but it's built to last.

The bolter uses complex, inefficient, expensive ammunition that is overkill on many targets, and requires constant maintenance and yet still isn't as reliable even with that maintenance.


You can't really compare a boltgun/autogun to an IG shotgun/SM shotgun.

Melissia wrote:The autogun uses simplistic, efficient, and effective ammunition, and is easy to maintain and durable. Not as reliable as a lasgun, but it's built to last.

The bolter uses complex, inefficient, expensive ammunition that is overkill on many targets, and requires constant maintenance and yet still isn't as reliable even with that maintenance.


You can't really compare a boltgun/autogun to an IG shotgun/SM shotgun.

Sure, if one was to assume the fluff was the dominant source of rules in 40K. Does anyone believe that?

Instead, you can accept that IG tends have basic, low end gear and that's Str 3. Marines tend to have advanced gear, and that's Str 4. As such, an autogun or a lasgun, found in an IG army will be Str 3, and so will their shotguns. A bolter in a marine army will be Str 4, and so will their shotguns.

No, but fluff remains important when making a comparison.

Melissia wrote:No, but fluff remains important when making a comparison.

When the comparison is as simple and straightforward as ‘IG has smaller guns so just as their rapid fire weapon is lower damage than the SM equivalent, their shotgun is lower damage than their SM version’ then fluff complexities about repair and maintenance really, really don’t matter.

Sure it does.

Doesnt an IG shotgun fire conventional shot, whereas a SM shotgun fires shot and Razor sharp monofilimant strands?

Are you confusing warp spiders with scouts somehow?

Nope, I read it in one of the black library books, I just cant remember which one now. Itll come to me Im sure.

Or I could be going crazyer

I know the imperium does use monofiliament rounds in some shotguns, notably those of naval security on ships where you dont want solid rounds puncturing a hull.

Right, they also use fire-based ammunition in their shotguns for the same reason.

Razor Sharp Flaming Monoflimant strands, I want some.

I think the reason that marine shotguns are more powerful (aside from the fluff reasons given above) is to make them a viable alternative to the bolter. For what it's worth, up until this edition of the codex, space marine shotguns were S3 just like the guard version. The result was that it was an inferior choice to the bolter or bolt pistol and cc weapon in nearly every possible scenario, almost nobody actually used them. To make them useful for a space marine player they needed a boost in strength.

Melissia wrote:
You can't really compare a boltgun/autogun to an IG shotgun/SM shotgun.

sebster wrote:An IG shotgun to a SM shotgun is to a autogun to a bolter.

I was just being contrary

You did mix your order up, in both examples as shown below.

SM weapon/Generic Weapon compared to IG weapon/SM weapon
IG weapon/SM weapon compared to Generic Weapon/SM weapon

....Not really, if you're smart you would understand the point they were trying to make in the first place.

Either way stick on topic.

Che-Vito wrote:I was just being contrary

You did mix your order up, in both examples as shown below.

SM weapon/Generic Weapon compared to IG weapon/SM weapon
IG weapon/SM weapon compared to Generic Weapon/SM weapon

It wasn't my point in the first place, I was just pointing out you were wrong.

And both comparisons work for the same purpose.

grayspark wrote:....Not really, if you're smart you would understand the point they were trying to make in the first place.

Either way stick on topic.

Lol, on topic, everything has already been said that need be said: SM are physically able to have a bigger shotgun, so they do.

On the case of shotguns range mebbe -1 to balistic skill shooting from 12 to 18 inch ( but not on 12, more just after it) and you have to declare which range your firing at long or short.

Hi all.
The real reason.
SM Scouts didnt origianly have the shotgun option.(ONLY IG had Str 3 shotguns, to compliment other str 3 las gun/pistol options.).
But some body in the development team thought SM Scouts would look 'kewl' with shotguns.(Probably after watching 'Terminator' .)

So they let them have the option of IG Str 3 shotguns just for 'Kewl' reasons.

Then a sh!tstorm of protest about how Str 3 shotguns were not competative compared to the other Str4 SM scout options, and the SM shotguns got upgraded to Str 4.

Not that GW is biased towards SMs or anything like that ...
Now of course everyone wants more effects shotguns all round.


TTFN
Lanrak,

You guys are thinking way too much... this is one of the easiest answers I've had to explain in a while:

Lasgun is basically a S3 version of a bolter. Rapid fire and IG makes up for loss of S with a generally higher model count.

IG shotguns are a S3 version of the SM shotgun. Again, Assault 2 where IG make up for lack of S with higher numbers.

Fluff really has no place in terms of trying to balance the game. S4 shotguns on IG would make the lasgun useless. S3 shotguns for SM would make the shotgun useless for them compared to the bolter.

i think only DA got s4 shotguns before 5ed(?)
also the 4s comes from manstopper rounds

It could be the round itself. Iv got a 12g shotgun and i can get everything from practice loads made to shot paper and clay disks to 12 quarter inch lead pellets made to stop dear in one shot.

then theres slugs,beanbags, flares,fire, fleshette and even confetti !!... its for sneeking one in your friends shotgun while hunting

thats why cops love them, able to change to what ever is needed. Space marines probably have the same mass made model but with better ammo.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
The real reason:
Because the rules say so.

Fixed

Whats the point of space marines taking shotguns anyway, scouts don't charge, they sit in tree's racking up counts with heavy bolter and sniper rifle, Impirial guard don't use shotguns, they can barely hold a chainsword anyway, if it was str 4/5 it would blow them of their feet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Madman49 wrote:Whats the point of space marines taking shotguns anyway, scouts don't charge, they sit in tree's racking up counts with heavy bolter and sniper rifle, Impirial guard don't use shotguns, they can barely hold a chainsword anyway, if it was str 4/5 it would blow them of their feet.

better idea, str 4 guard shotgun, but the shotgun is so powerful the recoil the guardsman can't controll and the guardsman gets smacked in the face, str 4 ap- template take an amour save after firing

Madman49 wrote:Whats the point of space marines taking shotguns anyway

Because it is better to assault then be assaulted. My one friend takes them because he sends his scouts in close as a diversion which has worked well in the past & a shotgun allws him to shoot and assault better than a pistol.

Scouts have bolt pistols anyway, and if they have shotguns they're going to have to be in charge range, so there's no actual point when you could do a lot more damage giving them combat blades anyway, I've had a 10man sq of scouts take down a carnifex in cc

Look the reason for shotguns is they go BANG really really loud.