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Orlanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:
As to being after less attention; they have always been trying to negotiate direct diplomatic ties with the U.S.

Yes, that grants them less attention. The more people in the loop the higher the profile.

agnosto wrote:
I don't know how demanding more money than actually exists on the planet will do anything except make everyone laugh at them more than they already do.

Only fools laugh, you are looking at this with an overly western mindset. You are also mistaken if you think the Koreans or Chinese care if you laugh. North Korea sets its own standard for truth, its a steady political standpoint for a totalitarian regime. Externally its better to say 'you must pay that', rather that 'this is how much you are costing us'. The latter is the same as the former, but the latter can be easily ignored internally and externally the former is also more assertive and apportions blame once payment is denied. North Korea doesnt expect a cent from the US, thats not the point of the demand. Anyone who thinks the North Koreans made this startment with any expectation to be paid anything is mistaken.
Also look at the rtiming. Obama has been crowing 'compensation' regarding the Gulf oil spill. So its an excellent time to make similar sounding demands.

agnosto wrote:
All sanctions have been U.N. approved so I fail to see how the US could be singled out as an agressor...

This adds to the ideology that the UN is a US lapdog, the Iraq war highlights this point, and the obstacles to any resolution against Israel.

agnosto wrote:
The thing with N. Korea is that they only exist at the sufferance of China and if China ever withdraws that support, they'll collapse quickly.

This is true, but could also be said for a number of regimes across the world. Israel would survive without US help now, but for much of its time it wouldnt. The concept of a client state is not unique to North Korea, this is one reason why this avenue is not approached. It would be too easily debunked as gross hypocrasy.

agnosto wrote:
China won't disavow them; however, because the refugee problem of a failed Nork state would be horrendous.

Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border. China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics. A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

And you are looking at this in an overly European mindset. I too want a bazillion dollars. And Im sure I (as an American) can give a gak less what they want, and Im sure its the same way for them. Of course we dont care what the North Koreans want, its all a pony and lights show. They are just trying to make the word know they still matter.

Orlanth wrote:The point is North Korea wants the US to stop making an issue of them. North Korea is here to stay, China is seeing to that, everything else is gravy. The idea is that once diplomatic relations are formally opened they can ignore each other. Just like US relations with say (taken at random) Tanzania. North Korea is not on the wordl map per se, its a peripheral state which is how it intends to stay. The fact that there are no relations means they cannot ignore each other, follow the logic to see who it works.

Stop making an issue? A nice way to do that would be to adhere to international agreements and stop insane posturing and sabre rattling. Play nice and the big kids will give you a treat.

Tanzania's not a good example as the US enjoys very strong relations with the government of Tanzania. But I get your point; I don't agree, but I understand your point.

Orlanth wrote:Dont ask dont get. Some of the requests are met, and you should be a bit fairer in your analysis, they make rdemansds of this US at the moment, for ther reasons given in my last post. Many of the other requests made are perfectly reasonable, developed nations are often willing to hand over some resources to an underdevelopeed nation when ask. Africa asks all the tim, as does South America, a few million here and there, requests are made of G7 and some G20 nartions primarily. Switzerland is a good choice to go cap in hand to as is Sweden.
What North Korea is doing is not unreasonable or exceptional, so dont make it out that it is or read too much into propoganda that implies it as such.
The demand for a crass payment from the US is an exception rather than the rule and is made for a completely different motive

The difference is the tone. Cap in hand is one thing but outright demands of resources or funding.... How would you feel if your (insert relative or friend) came to you and said, "If you don't give me $XXX, I'm going to burn your house down." Which is very similar to how N. Korea often words their demands.... Big difference between "request" and "demand". N. Korea has repeatedly made demands of its neighbors and the international community; I hardly think it is an exception. "Don't take the Chonan sinking to the UN or there will be war!" When I was in Korea, the N. Koreans repeatedly threatened to turn Seoul into a "Lake of fire".

Orlanth wrote:You completely fail to understand its not a personal opinion, I am reiterating a practiced ideology (point in bold). You dont have me to convince, the message is to the room and comes from North Korea to her apologists.

Yes, I am well aware of how uninformed people perceive the US's relationship with the UN.

Orlanth wrote:You use the word Nork alot, it helps on serious political threads not to overuse a derogatory term, you might appear a little bigoted if you dont. I dont think you are, but just to be safe it might be an iodea to call them North Koreans every now and then.
Comparisons to Israel are valid, without continual US funding they cannot afford their own military budget let alone the rest of their economy. Israel is perhaps the most overbudgeted country on earth. The difference is cash flow remains good and the US will not stop the cheques from flowing. Israel is also different in that it can stand on its own two feet if needs be, it has way too much high level infrastructure for a country of its size, but is very efficient and competent in terms of logistical management. Israel without US support would be an economic nightmare, but would be able to default on any debts with impunity because its strong internally and a tough nut to crack.

Yep. I use Nork; I had family serve in the war that resulted from their invasion of the South and I lived in South Korea for 4 years. I admit that I have an active dislike of the ruling party and their general existance. I love the Korean people, I hate the ugly, hillbilly cousins to the North; if that makes me evil, I'm unappologetic. I will; however, refrain if it insults your sensibilities.

Israel's GDP for 2008 was $202 Billion with about $3 Billion in US aid... Memo of understanding between US and Israel in 2007 set a ten-year aid package at $30Billion.

Now let's look at N. Korea. Since 1996, the US has sent over 2.2 million metric tons of food aid to N. Korea worth approximately $800 million and the US only constituted 17% of foreign food aid to N. Korea with China, Japan and South Korea comprising the majority of the rest. There are strongly supported allegations that N. Korea is diverting a large portion of this aid and reselling it on the international black market.

The countries listed above, along with the US also donate energy, money, etc. Here's an interesting read for you: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40095.pdf

The point here is that $3billion in cash to Israel is a small % of their GDP versus the huge amount the N. Koreans receive. If the U.S. were to pull aid from Israel, it would hurt; if the world stopped helping N. Korea.... I think you can guess.

edit: spelling.

Hey guys, I have a question. What the feth is the point of even attempting to be fair and rational towards NORTH fething KOREA. Its a gak HOLE. NO ONE WOULD BAT AN EYELASH IF THEY CEASED EXISTING TOMORROW.


And stop pandering to China for the love of god. Its China. WHO CARES IF THEY ARE UPSET. They are a paper tiger.

My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

ja ja ja

I agree, NK citizens eat grass, think their leader is a god, and don't know what a refridgerator is. This isn't by choice, its by Kim's rule.

Also, if we did pay him he would probably have the largest play ever, using schoolgirls for every part.

Sorry, but I think you're numbers are "wong".

That amount of money doesn't even exist. That's more money than you could possibly imagine. America has less than 5 trillion in all of out assets combined. Impossible.That's...75,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars.

75 BILLION is more approppriate, but still outrageous. Like they deserve anything...


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Ediin wrote:75 Trillion dollars. Send them Bill Gates!

And yes, Austin Powers is good, very good.

Bill Gates would laugh in their faces, then attempt to sell them Zunes. And SUCCEED! Those koreans will buy anything Shiny that makes sound.


DRAG AND DROP!

KingCracker wrote:
And you are looking at this in an overly European mindset. I too want a bazillion dollars. And Im sure I (as an American) can give a gak less what they want, and Im sure its the same way for them. Of course we dont care what the North Koreans want, its all a pony and lights show. They are just trying to make the word know they still matter.

Actually I am looking at this from as close to as an oriental communist point of view as I can. This is needed to actually understand what they are trying.

agnosto wrote:
Stop making an issue? A nice way to do that would be to adhere to international agreements and stop insane posturing and sabre rattling. Play nice and the big kids will give you a treat.

International agreements are largely stacked against North Korea, Bush wanted a piece of them and would have were it not for China. The US policy direction is hard to refocus even with a change of president.

agnosto wrote:The difference is the tone. Cap in hand is one thing but outright demands of resources or funding.... How would you feel if your (insert relative or friend) came to you and said, "If you don't give me $XXX, I'm going to burn your house down." Which is very similar to how N. Korea often words their demands.... Big difference between "request" and "demand". N. Korea has repeatedly made demands of its neighbors and the international community; I hardly think it is an exception. "Don't take the Chonan sinking to the UN or there will be war!" When I was in Korea, the N. Koreans repeatedly threatened to turn Seoul into a "Lake of fire".

You should read Bush's rhetoric in the past. North Koreans also fear the bogeyman.

agnosto wrote:The point here is that $3billion in cash to Israel is a small % of their GDP versus the huge amount the N. Koreans receive. If the U.S. were to pull aid from Israel, it would hurt; if the world stopped helping N. Korea.... I think you can guess.

I can guess but it wont be the dictator who suffers.

Orlanth wrote:
Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border.

Given the likely destinations of any refugees (Jilin, Liaoning, and Heliojiang) it seems like China would be quite concerned about any potential refugees. All of those provinces have seen significant growth of late, and play important roles with respect to Chinese agriculture.

Orlanth wrote:
China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics.

China has distanced itself from North Korea, both ideologically and in terms of power. Note that they have, recently, begun supporting sanctions against Pyongyang.

Orlanth wrote:
A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

No, that's not necessarily true. Its rare for one culture to dominate the other, and so it can not be declared with certainty that the South would overshadow the North in the course of integration. Particularly given the fact that China would have a significant role in any such process.

That said, the worst case scenario for China involves a united Korea that favors the US. Since North Korea is only a minor problem at the moment, it is unlikely that China would favor the risk of integration.


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Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
And stop pandering to China for the love of god. Its China. WHO CARES IF THEY ARE UPSET. They are a paper tiger.

So, China has a long history of ending military or political operations once challenged by a significant opponent?

Honestly, Im curious how the NK are going to act when Kim Jhong Ill (is that right?) dies. I know itll happen in my life time (unless those damn hippies are right and 2012 we all die) Will they just continue with this weird ass life they live, or will someone step up and say "Ok now that this is all over, lets try becoming a REAL country for once"

There is some dissent within the North Korean regime, but the Party ideology is nearly universal amongst all likely successors. The transfer of power will be difficult, largely because Kim Jong-Il has not named a successor as his father did, but I doubt it will bring about revolutionary change.

The best outcome for the North Korean people is likely to be a contested succession in which Kim Jong-Il's two legitimate sons vie for power.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

Im sorry, were you under the impression I give a feth what you think?

Orlanth wrote:Seventy five teradollars. $75,000,000,000,000. Does that kind of money exist?

It's about five times the GDP of the US. So, ummm, no - there is not that much cash on the Earth.

Unless it's Zimbabwe dollars. In which case it's about the cost of a coca-cola.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:I have to third the Austin powers comments. That is the first thing I thought of when I read that blurb.

And I pictured the slow responsive laughter too. Mwaha.......Mwahaha......MWahahahaha........MWahahahahahahahah........Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha

GG

I thought of Civilisation, when you've completely owned some crappy power and have tanks surrounding their one city defended by a pikeman and they send a demand for a thousand gold and the tecnology of monarchy. N Korea is basically an AI bug, or some guy in Finland playing for lols.


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Frazzled wrote:Seriously, China shuts down the pipeline and NK goes dark. NK done in 24 hours.

That's a composite image of the world each shot taken at night. See how S Korea looks like an island, because N Korea is already dark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:If they want to cut costs they could just make up a $1.0Bn note and print 75 of them. They could even sell reproduction $1.0Bn notes.

They'd have to print 75 thousand of those billion dollar notes. It's a whole lot of cash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sorry, but I think you're numbers are "wong".

That amount of money doesn't even exist. That's more money than you could possibly imagine. America has less than 5 trillion in all of out assets combined. Impossible.That's...75,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars.

75 BILLION is more approppriate, but still outrageous. Like they deserve anything...

The number's got a 'logic' behind it. Assuming (somehow) that the US was the aggressor in the war, then looking at the state of the North Korea after the war and the economic decline in that time, and assuming (somehow) that was the result of the US whooping them (as opposed to being the result of a disfunctional state run economy) then it's about the total lost value of the N Korean economy compared to functional economy like S Korea.

It's just those (somehow) moments. And well, even if they were right, no-one's paying anyone $75 trillion. That's bigger than Germany reparations to the Allies after WWI, and we all know how that turned out.

Japan looks pretty awesome on that map.

Ilike how there's just two tiny dots in the middle of OZ.

Apparently the Nile is abundant in Floodlights, and Mongolia (or Eastern Russia, hard to tell) is a happening place.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

Good call mate, good call.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Apparently the Nile is abundant in Floodlights,

Something like 80% of Egypt's 77 million people live on the Nile. Geographically, its a really interesting country.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
and Mongolia (or Eastern Russia, hard to tell) is a happening place.

Its mostly China, but also Vladivostok and the various cities around Ulan Bator.

Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

youbedead wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

Who has the idea they expect to be paid. Come on guys you have to think further than that.

youbedead wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

QFT. You could buy the continent of africa for less than a quarter of that. Oh, but don't tell the chi-rese. I've heard they're after that ball of crap.

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Fateweaver wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Yeah,seriously. I hate to admit it, but sometimes I wish nice people didn't exist. Why can't we just blow up whatever we please? Because of the damn Humanitarians. Because people care too much about other people. Let 'em burn in the fires of damnation for all I care.

Ancient Rome must have been nice place. "hey caesar!" "yesh?" "This dude in that town over there stole my TV, can we burn the town to the ground?" "Oya, lets pwn dem" "Sweeeet"

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Yeah,seriously. I hate to admit it, but sometimes I wish nice people didn't exist. Why can't we just blow up whatever we please? Because of the damn Humanitarians. Because people care too much about other people. Let 'em burn in the fires of damnation for all I care.

Ancient Rome must have been nice place. "hey caesar!" "yesh?" "This dude in that town over there stole my TV, can we burn the town to the ground?" "Oya, lets pwn dem" "Sweeeet"

Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

I heard something funny on the citizenradio podcast:
"Two people,seemingly united by their love for kim-chi, torn apart by their love for communism"

Fateweaver wrote:
Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Also, people that don't want to expend monetary and human resources in order to satisfy the compensatory urges of American men from northern Minnesota, or central Texas.

War is expensive, and guarantees death on both sides. It is stupid to do to war when there is nothing to gain.

Fateweaver wrote:
Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

There are two really large nations that border North Korea that take an active interest in its existence. These nations are named China, and Russia, they complicate matters considerably. Though they are beginning to align their perspective with ours.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

So we're using maturity as a qualitative method for judging states?

American political polemic has gotten really, really bad.

dogma wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:
Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Also, people that don't want to expend monetary and human resources in order to satisfy the compensatory urges of American men from northern Minnesota, or central Texas.

War is expensive, and guarantees death on both sides. It is stupid to do to war when there is nothing to gain.

Fateweaver wrote:
Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

There are two really large nations that border North Korea that take an active interest in its existence. These nations are named China, and Russia, they complicate matters considerably. Though they are beginning to align their perspective with ours.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

So we're using maturity as a qualitative method for judging states?

American political polemic has gotten really, really bad.

Launching an ICBM might cost what? A few hundred million? Seems cheap to me.

YEESSSH^

You've got the right idea,fateweaver!

Fateweaver wrote:
Launching an ICBM might cost what? A few hundred million? Seems cheap to me.

30-40 billion when considering basic replacement value. Far more when considering the fact that we no longer maintain the production facilities for such weapons.

More importantly, that ICBM (or, more likely, multiple ICBMs) will not eliminate everything in North Korea. We would not be able to guarantee that their ability to bombard the South would be eliminated. We would not be able to gurantee that their nuclear arsenal would be eliminated. We would create a massive refugee problem that would seriously irk the Chinese and the Russians. We would create a significant fallout zone which would anger the Japanese and the South Koreans (assuming they were above ground after the bombardment).

All of these things cost money, lives, or clout and fail to improve the US position in any noticeable way. There is literally no incentive for us to strike the North until they take significant military action.