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andain841 wrote:In 2nd edition the guardians had the option to take lasguns. I actually think this is a good option that they should put back in. Why not just give guardians the lasblaster (the weapon that the swooping hawks have)? This would give them the range to be a proper "defensive" unit and would still leave the DA with an important role as a more elite troop unit with a more powerful, if slightly shorter ranged, weapon and a higher BS.

Lasblasters are something that I've mentioned as an alternative weapon choice for Guardians, giving them increased range at the cost of reduced strength with no extra model cost. If you remember correctly, Shuris were Sustained Fire weapons back in 2nd ed. and could have between 1 and 3 shots on a given round with a 1-in-6 chance of jamming which prevented fire for one turn. Sounds almost like Bladestorm...

What if Guardian Shuris were 12" S4 AP5 Assault 3? Giving them the extra shot would give them back some short-ranged killiness, gaining an extra 5 hits/2-3 wounds vs. MEQs.

Guitardian wrote:No. They do just suck. I've been griping about them since 2nd ed. (-2 save, S4, r24") got nerfed. Avenger cats arent bad, at least they can bladestorm and ride in on the Serpent of death for a ridiculous amount of dakka. But I honestly don't think I have ever used the Guardian version successfully. I only take a single squad of those putzes to leave way in the back firing their scatterlaser platform and waiting around for the last turn to grab a board spot. If they are using their catapults, it usually means they are going to be demolished the next turn.

Leave the shuricat as crappy but make the support weapons stronger. Not everything has to be uberkilly in every aspect. Focus on giving guardians strength on what they should be strong at - support roles. Else you're just making them assault troops like every other infantry unit. Meh. make them differnet like, every eldar should be different.

Guardians should operate heavy/support weapons. They should not be in close. They should absolutely suck in close.

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:No. They do just suck. I've been griping about them since 2nd ed. (-2 save, S4, r24") got nerfed. Avenger cats arent bad, at least they can bladestorm and ride in on the Serpent of death for a ridiculous amount of dakka. But I honestly don't think I have ever used the Guardian version successfully. I only take a single squad of those putzes to leave way in the back firing their scatterlaser platform and waiting around for the last turn to grab a board spot. If they are using their catapults, it usually means they are going to be demolished the next turn.

Leave the shuricat as crappy but make the support weapons stronger. Not everything has to be uberkilly in every aspect. Focus on giving guardians strength on what they should be strong at - support roles. Else you're just making them assault troops like every other infantry unit. Meh. make them differnet like, every eldar should be different.

Guardians should operate heavy/support weapons. They should not be in close. They should absolutely suck in close.

Guardians are bought as heavy weapons teams, 5 guardians, one platform for 40 points per team, max 4 teams per squad, a squad of 2 teams and one extra character may be mounted in a 'serpent, each squad may be joined with a Warlock?
Still overpriced for their individual performance, but you pay for the scoring heavy weapon capacity, not the models themselves.

What if Guardian Shuris were 12" S4 AP5 Assault 3? Giving them the extra shot would give them back some short-ranged killiness, gaining an extra 5 hits/2-3 wounds vs. MEQs.

What's the point of a more expensive unit with bladestorm then?


Also, I was reading through the Eldar Codex and noticed that you "must" pay for the heavy weapon in a Guardian Defender squad.
They should put restrictions like that on more units in the game.

What's the point of a more expensive unit with bladestorm then?

Exactly.

How about every four guys you can take a heavy weapon? Ten man squads then can have two, but a full twenty man squad can take 5. It also leaves a decent amount of regular guardians.

Good question, how shuriken catapults can be fixed.

Well, you might want a Serpent for your Guardian Defenders so that they can disembark within 12'' range to the enemy.
On the other hand, if you let them footslog they might never get into range, especially when the enemy is fast moving.

nostromo wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:maybe they could be 18" and the DA be 24?

Whatever, it's an amazing gun, it makes the bolter look like puddlesauce.

If you wanna keep that opinion, don't look at the profile of an ork shoota.

The Ork Shoota is also an awesome gun.

Let's face it, quite a few Marine players would give up their bolters for shootas in an instant.

What's the point of a more expensive unit with bladestorm then?

Well, DA's have better BS, meaning that more shots hit and the avenger catapult has 50% more range so they're more likely to get their shots off without being in charge range.

The suggestion for an extra shot is to create a "no go" zone around the heavy weapon team. I think it would be very effective without making any other changes to the Guardian's stats or abilities at no additional increase to points.

Using some (admittedly estimated, please forgive any inaccuracies since I'm doing it in my head and I'm at work) math-hammer, it goes something like this vs. meq's assuming all shooting models are in range:

Max size guardians (sans warlock and hw) at assault 2 can kill about 3. Guardians at assault 3 can kill about 5. A squad this size (with embolden warlock and SC) runs 200ish points. I don't normally play squads this size, but I know some do.

Min size guardians kill almost 2 at assault 2 and a little more than 2 at assault 3, but runs a modest 120 with a warlock and SC. Again, I don't play squads this small. Mine are around 15 models with the warlock.

10 DA's with a BS/DS exarch kill about 3 normally and about 4 when bladestorming and runs closer to 160ish.

The difference here is that the Guardians are likely to be assaulted while the DA's can fall back to shoot again, possibly doubling their effectiveness.

Actually, the biggest difference is that Dire Avengers have better armour and a supporting exarch power called Defend. Couple this with a Shimmer Shield and you get a unit which makes for a competent tarpit. Dire Avengers can make the best no-go zones around your semi-stationary support weapons.

andain841 wrote:In 2nd edition the guardians had the option to take lasguns. I actually think this is a good option that they should put back in. Why not just give guardians the lasblaster (the weapon that the swooping hawks have)? This would give them the range to be a proper "defensive" unit and would still leave the DA with an important role as a more elite troop unit with a more powerful, if slightly shorter ranged, weapon and a higher BS.

Not a bad idea to be honest. Though this would make the swooping hawks a less used unit, not that i use them anyway....

wuestenfux wrote:Good question, how shuriken catapults can be fixed.

Well, you might want a Serpent for your Guardian Defenders so that they can disembark within 12'' range to the enemy.
On the other hand, if you let them footslog they might never get into range, especially when the enemy is fast moving.

Hmmm, this is a dilema often come across. The obvious thing to stop them never getting into range is, like you say, putting them in a WS, though i think WSs would be wasted on guardians. My guardians just sit at home, on an objective, and take the odd shot with their bright lance, they never really use their shruiken catapaults.

Eldar Own wrote:

andain841 wrote:In 2nd edition the guardians had the option to take lasguns. I actually think this is a good option that they should put back in. Why not just give guardians the lasblaster (the weapon that the swooping hawks have)? This would give them the range to be a proper "defensive" unit and would still leave the DA with an important role as a more elite troop unit with a more powerful, if slightly shorter ranged, weapon and a higher BS.

Not a bad idea to be honest. Though this would make the swooping hawks a less used unit, not that i use them anyway....

wuestenfux wrote:Good question, how shuriken catapults can be fixed.

Well, you might want a Serpent for your Guardian Defenders so that they can disembark within 12'' range to the enemy.
On the other hand, if you let them footslog they might never get into range, especially when the enemy is fast moving.

Hmmm, this is a dilema often come across. The obvious thing to stop them never getting into range is, like you say, putting them in a WS, though i think WSs would be wasted on guardians. My guardians just sit at home, on an objective, and take the odd shot with their bright lance, they never really use their shruiken catapaults.

See I would agree with that defense tactic if almost every gun ever didn't pen their armor.

I forgot who said it but I I totally agree that ts not the catapults that are crappy in fact they are pretty darn good, its that they don't fit in with the defender guardian role that well. Although since they heavy weapon can move and shoot some may argue differently. Increasing the shots granting 18" range or giving it rending would be way too powerful cart blanche while keeping them at thier point cost. And sure fluff wise they are supposed to be super amazing but this isn't fluff and I dout GW is going to change something like this now.

Maybe something like this instead:
A special rule for defenders,
Integrated circutry: If the guardian defender unit has not moved this turn you may increase the range of their shuriken catapults by 6" this way you can't indefinitly run away with a 18" base range weapon effectively turning them into storm bolters for a basic unit. You can fire at 18" but only if you don't move. Any thoughts? I think this would be a fair compromise without a price hike.

dumplingman wrote:I forgot who said it but I I totally agree that ts not the catapults that are crappy in fact they are pretty darn good, its that they don't fit in with the defender guardian role that well. Although since they heavy weapon can move and shoot some may argue differently. Increasing the shots granting 18" range or giving it rending would be way too powerful cart blanche while keeping them at thier point cost. And sure fluff wise they are supposed to be super amazing but this isn't fluff and I dout GW is going to change something like this now.

Maybe something like this instead:
A special rule for defenders,
Integrated circutry: If the guardian defender unit has not moved this turn you may increase the range of their shuriken catapults by 6" this way you can't indefinitly run away with a 18" base range weapon effectively turning them into storm bolters for a basic unit. You can fire at 18" but only if you don't move. Any thoughts? I think this would be a fair compromise without a price hike.

That seems like a pretty good idea actually. I don't know what you mean by storm bolters, but still. I would rather they still move but not be able to assault or something. Oh and GW not changing anything? Starcannons used to be heavy 3. (a super small example)

Mahtamori wrote:Actually, the biggest difference is that Dire Avengers have

no anti tank capacity, no grenades, no range capacity, low toughness, poor armor and no special morale rules but...

better armour and a supporting exarch power called Defend. Couple this with a Shimmer Shield and you get a

really overspecialized, poor range, impotent antitank, helpless melee

unit which makes for a competent

overpriced

tarpit. Dire Avengers can make the best no-go zones around your semi-stationary support weapons.

if you like wasting points on Eldar Junk and being squashed by transports.

I don't think we're playing the same game, because Dire Avengers are pretty cheap... sure, they're one point more expensive than battle sisters, but they have better weapons, better WS, better Initiative, Fleet, and better Leadership. And then their sergeant upgrade makes the squad become more powerful-- and they have better wargear besides. They're also two points more expensive than Guard veterans, but with all the same benefits as described before, only they're even more notably better because they have the same armor save. Hell, with shimmershield and defend they could very well survive an assault by Orks and tie up a mob for several turns. And no, AP4 is not a crappy armor save.

The only valid complaint you brought up was their lack of special weapons and anti-tank, but this is a fault of the Eldar army's style rather than the unit itself-- Eldar units are focused into a specific role.

The only thing I've liked for the Guardians so far is letting them fire further if they stand still.

Makes sense because they're not as well trained, along with poorer equipment.

The only other change I would make to them would be taking 2 heavy weapons instead of one.

There was a suggest to make them have weapons for every 5 people, but c'mon, for such a cheap unit, that's way too many special weapons.

Augustus wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Actually, the biggest difference is that Dire Avengers have

no anti tank capacity, no grenades, no range capacity, low toughness, poor armor and no special morale rules but...

better armour and a supporting exarch power called Defend. Couple this with a Shimmer Shield and you get a

really overspecialized, poor range, impotent antitank, helpless melee

unit which makes for a competent

overpriced

tarpit. Dire Avengers can make the best no-go zones around your semi-stationary support weapons.

if you like wasting points on Eldar Junk and being squashed by transports.

Guardians are even worse armour, worse range, pay a hefty price for the anti-tank capacity, anti-tank capacity comes in low number compared to what you payed and is rendered unreliable, have no grenades either, are also low toughness and have no special movement rules. And they are significantly worse in melee if you compare them un-upgraded and their unit sergeant complement their abilities like a Banshee Exarch in a unit of Dire Avengers.

If you wish to waste points on something that is smashed even harder by transports, go ahead.

Dire Avengers remain one of the best scoring options Eldar have, when you aren't going skimmer-mech. I'd rather have a unit which *can* stand a chance in melee and get to shoot their basic weapons holding objectives than a unit which cost 56% as much which only get to shoot their anti-tank weapon at very crap efficiency which Tau Firewarriors stand a good chance of defeating in melee.
100 points for a 12" unit ("we'll not get to use our weapons") with a missile launcher is even more expensive than a 177 point DA unit with Bladestorm and Defend.

The Eldar troop choices are pretty craptastic in general due to low survivability, low customization, and low AT. If the Eldar fluff dropped the emo "we're a dying race and we can't field proper warriors anymore" and went with Biel Tan as base for their army, it would be so much better.
Aspect Warriors make up core/troop units, Guardians make the crew of the tanks and heavy weapons, and the over-all HW:Guardian ratio went up to aproximately where it is for the Support Weapon Team, you'd have a pretty solid codex.

Both are overpriced in the current edition, but the DAs have a chance of actually doing something - especially if you mech them.

That seems like a pretty good idea actually. I don't know what you mean by storm bolters, but still. I would rather they still move but not be able to assault or something. Oh and GW not changing anything? Starcannons used to be heavy 3. (a super small example)

What I meant by storm bolters is that with a 6" inch move and 18" guns you have an effective range of 24" thats all.

Augustus wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Actually, the biggest difference is that Dire Avengers have

no anti tank capacity, no grenades, no range capacity, low toughness, poor armor and no special morale rules but...

better armour and a supporting exarch power called Defend. Couple this with a Shimmer Shield and you get a

really overspecialized, poor range, impotent antitank, helpless melee

unit which makes for a competent

overpriced

tarpit. Dire Avengers can make the best no-go zones around your semi-stationary support weapons.

if you like wasting points on Eldar Junk and being squashed by transports.

Thats the thing though. Eldar are supposed to be different with each formation specialized. You want generalist, play marines. Eldar should be a highly integrated killing machine thats nearly unstoppable on the attack, but if you break a few units, the machine falls apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Eldar troop choices are pretty craptastic in general due to low survivability, low customization, and low AT. If the Eldar fluff dropped the emo "we're a dying race and we can't field proper warriors anymore" and went with Biel Tan as base for their army, it would be so much better.
Aspect Warriors make up core/troop units, Guardians make the crew of the tanks and heavy weapons, and the over-all HW:Guardian ratio went up to aproximately where it is for the Support Weapon Team, you'd have a pretty solid codex.

Both are overpriced in the current edition, but the DAs have a chance of actually doing something - especially if you mech them.

This.

Agreed!