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Matthias wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:What about 'Ard Boyz? It's not perfect, but it's a fairly good competitive format as far as the current tournament scene goes.

If 'Ard Boyz is what the competitive crowd wants, then why does the Throne of Skulls or Circuit tournaments have to fulfill the same ends? Why can't they be the hobby ying to the competitive yang?

The competitive crowd should work on turning the existing foundation of 'Ard Boyz into something better rather then demanding that every Indy event morph into what they have defined as 40K. There is plenty of room for both.

The problem is, I don't see 'Ard Boyz being structured enough to appease the highly competitive crowd and I think GW is more likely to throw the baby out with the bath water then refine the current system unless the community gets constructive and involved in a positive manner. The loud-mouth, profanity-laden, piss-off rants that are the norm on the internet when it comes to these things isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Well, I didn't say anything about the Throne of Skulls or other tournaments having to fulfill the same end. You said that GW will never (ever!) give us a competitive event, but that's exactly what they've trying to give us with 'Ard Boyz for several years now. In fact, it's the only event they give us outside of Games Day, at least in the US.

You and others presume that because someone values the competitive piece of of a tournament more than the painting/sports/comp piece, they're advocating grey plastic armies. This is an invalid assumption, poor rhetoric and is degenerative to intelligent conversation here.

Feel free to continue discussing, but please stop categorizing people who think that a tournament should be primarily a competitive event advocate poorly showing armies.

I find this interesting as well, especially considering that there wasn't a single unpainted army at the semi-finals I attended this year (18 total). I think I probably had the least completed army with a single unit of Veterans left gray.

Danny Internets wrote:Well, I didn't say anything about the Throne of Skulls or other tournaments having to fulfill the same end. You said that GW will never (ever!) give us a competitive event, but that's exactly what they've trying to give us with 'Ard Boyz for several years now. In fact, it's the only event they give us outside of Games Day, at least in the US.

With a straight face...you will say 'Ard Boyz is the event competitive gamers want from GW? From the old GT days, through the Hall of Heroes, to the GW Circuit, and through 'Ard Boyz - I am not sure how you put any faith in GW when it comes to things of this nature. They have an unbroken track record of half-assing the organization of these sort of events. Their overall goals are not in line with the competitive gamer. To keep you sated, they will half-ass it all day long.

Everyone has an opinion. Everyone wants a certain type of event. GW is never going to give you the exact event you want. They will not see it that far through. They will not tailor it to suit your needs. They will always place sales, exposure and the playing of game in front of true competition. They specialize in catering to the people that can say, "That was fun!" at the end of the day and if they please 20% of the hardcore competitive crowd...bonus!

You want a [truly] competitive event - as do others. GW is not going to give this you. Ever.

Events like the NOVA Open stand to get more right in regards to what the competitive gamer wants than 'Ard Boyz ever will. If I was invested in such things, I would be there without question.

Matthias wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:Well, I didn't say anything about the Throne of Skulls or other tournaments having to fulfill the same end. You said that GW will never (ever!) give us a competitive event, but that's exactly what they've trying to give us with 'Ard Boyz for several years now. In fact, it's the only event they give us outside of Games Day, at least in the US.

With a straight face...you will say 'Ard Boyz is the event competitive gamers want from GW? From the old GT days, through the Hall of Heroes, to the GW Circuit, and through 'Ard Boyz - I am not sure how you put any faith in GW when it comes to things of this nature. They have an unbroken track record of half-assing the organization of these sort of events. Their overall goals are not in line with the competitive gamer. To keep you sated, they will half-ass it all day long.

Everyone has an opinion. Everyone wants a certain type of event. GW is never going to give you the exact event you want. They will not see it that far through. They will not tailor it to suit your needs. They will always place sales, exposure and the playing of game in front of true competition. They specialize in catering to the people that can say, "That was fun!" at the end of the day and if they please 20% of the hardcore competitive crowd...bonus!

You want a [truly] competitive event - as do others. GW is not going to give this you. Ever.

Events like the NOVA Open stand to get more right in regards to what the competitive gamer wants than 'Ard Boyz ever will. If I was invested in such things, I would be there without question.

I don't see why you slander ard boyz so much, your indie events are just as bad if not worse than what I've seen at ard boyz. The difference is, Ard boyz is free + plus gas and board (which depending on your state is pretty cheap). While Indie events are either several states away, which costs either airplane tickets or huge amounts of gas and boarding, and its at least 50 dollars I hope they don't mess up the missions or anything!

Now I am not a defender of GW I call BS when it needs to be called but saying that indie games have no fault is just childish, cause if they mess up I'm spending more money than I would for ard boyz which doesn't crap on how I like to play the game with.

Luthon1234 wrote:I don't see why you slander ard boyz so much, your indie events are just as bad if not worse than what I've seen at ard boyz. The difference is, Ard boyz is free + plus gas and board (which depending on your state is pretty cheap). While Indie events are either several states away, which costs either airplane tickets or huge amounts of gas and boarding, and its at least 50 dollars I hope they don't mess up the missions or anything!

Now I am not a defender of GW I call BS when it needs to be called but saying that indie games have no fault is just childish, cause if they mess up I'm spending more money than I would for ard boyz which doesn't crap on how I like to play the game with.

This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I have no real issues with 'Ard Boyz or Throne of Skulls. I am not saying Indy events are perfect or better. That said, I do think some Indy events have much more heart and therefore much more potential.

Warhammer 40k last time I checked is a hobby not boxing? So many get outraged that GW is treating the game how they always have... as a hobby. Either that tickles your feathers or not that is just how GW operates.

Not to mention, being that a majority of players that will be attending the event in Las Vegas got there tickets through what many posters to this thread would accuse of being fluffy uncompetitive romps, then it shouldn't be hard to imagine that Jervis has created this statistic proof of a tournament?

One good thing is the tournament is at 1500 points surprisingly the most competitive point level around

Matthias wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:I don't see why you slander ard boyz so much, your indie events are just as bad if not worse than what I've seen at ard boyz. The difference is, Ard boyz is free + plus gas and board (which depending on your state is pretty cheap). While Indie events are either several states away, which costs either airplane tickets or huge amounts of gas and boarding, and its at least 50 dollars I hope they don't mess up the missions or anything!

Now I am not a defender of GW I call BS when it needs to be called but saying that indie games have no fault is just childish, cause if they mess up I'm spending more money than I would for ard boyz which doesn't crap on how I like to play the game with.

This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I have no real issues with 'Ard Boyz or Throne of Skulls. I am not saying Indy events are perfect or better. That said, I do think some Indy events have much more heart and therefore much more potential.

So... you have no opinion on anything either way?

Dash - that post was in direct response to someone saying there should be NO painting requirements at all, and saying there isnt an issue with unpainted minis.

I was saying I dont advocate NO stadnards, and if you read the post more carefully you will see I a) dont advocate *any* painting scores, just penalties for not complying with the minimum standard and b) I have stated, many times, that I dont think sports scores are a good idea either. A way to stop people winning if they are idiots - good. Entirely subjective easy to manipulate scoring? No.

a) and b) should be used only to prevent someone winning, not to promote someone into winning who wouldnt otherwise. That way you promote the hobby, and good sportsmanship, without allowing too much in the way of abuse. And more importantly making winning games the determining factor.

One good thing is the tournament is at 1500 points surprisingly the most competitive point level around

LOOK, IT'S A WOILD AGENDA! It's beautiful to witness in its native habitat. Kroikey.

Funny. I just got done looking at that blog and the 'in defence of 1500 pt games'.

I'm really quite baffled at the ToS scoring. GW (US) mentioned they will be releasing this new format this summer. I'm still unclear if this will only be for GW run events, or, the new standard in their RTT packets...or what?

MVBrandt: Right now, your Indy GT has appeared to have the most reasonable and apt scoring. I'm bummed that I can't attend, but really interested to see how this turns out. The missions alone are reason enough to see them really played out for tourney purposes.

/blush

I posted about throne of skulls here ...
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/06/throne-of-skulls-thoughts-on.html


You should hop on the wait list Sarigar ... there are several people coming from the SC/NC area, hitch a ride

Thanks for the comments, regardless ... much appreciated.

... you used the term blogosphere, brandt.

ALL CREDABILITY GONE.

Well that blows. Internet credibility is where it's at. Especially when spelling doesn't matter.

MVBrandt wrote:Well that blows. Internet credibility is where it's at. Especially when spelling doesn't matter.

And now you're arguing on the internet. Even more credibility gone!

you know what? because of the auto-spellcheck on dakka, I knew that word was misspelled. I was testing you to see if you'd argue on the internet.

Would you people stop derailing this thread! I swear if Tim were still coming from CHEESEVILLE to attend the Open, I'd pair you two off in Round 1, just to get rid of one. I'll have to figure out something else to do w/ you Honer.

I reiterate - in the hope of re-railing - my thoughts on Throne of Skulls ...

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/06/throne-of-skulls-thoughts-on.html

MVBrandt wrote:Would you people stop derailing this thread! I swear if Tim were still coming from CHEESEVILLE to attend the Open, I'd pair you two off in Round 1, just to get rid of one. I'll have to figure out something else to do w/ you Honer.

I reiterate - in the hope of re-railing - my thoughts on Throne of Skulls ...

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/06/throne-of-skulls-thoughts-on.html

Alright fine, I'll stay on topic.

I basically agree with all of your points.

Its basically GW saying, hey we are going to have a big event, just show up and play some random games. Oh and then we will score you on it so that some random person wins.

Sorry GW, but I can already do this at my FLGS. Why would I travel across the country for a day of hobbying. If you are going to implement any type of scoring system then you sure as hell better have it set up in a decent faction. Calling it a tournament, people come and expect to compete. The competition is half the fun of tournaments. When you have a scoring system such as this that in no way promotes a competition compared to the independent tournaments. (yes that's saying something considering how bad most major tournaments are at this already)

All I have to do is bring Dark Angels, Tau, Necrons and play well with them and randomly get first place. But winning should mean something. In this case I can probably go 3-2 and still win if I get enough other soft scores. Winning when I didn't even truly accomplish it does nothing for me.

The accomplishment of winning needs to actually be hard fought for. Not something you luck into. Where is the fun in that?

You want a [truly] competitive event - as do others. GW is not going to give this you. Ever.

Well, now that you've changed your position I am more inclined to agree. But, of course, this hinges on exactly what you mean by a "truly competitive" event as distinct from a "competitive" event. Or, more specifically, it hinges on what you think that I think constitutes a "truly competitive" event.

I honestly do think that 'Ard Boyz is competitive despite its problems. Every year they seem to run at least one wacky scenario that casts doubt on this, but it's usually pretty limited. It's not perfect, but it's miles better than any of the other independent GTs. The exception, as you pointed out, is the NOVA Open, which I'm looking forward to attending next month.

Hi

I really don't see ToS fitting the bill for complete hobbiests at all.

Best painting is "a regular fixture" of these events but there are no rules regarding how it is done... or even that it be included.

There is no sportsmanship or comp or painting scores, all of which often have issues. Rather there is the deliberately vague "Favorite Army Vote" which can be awarded for absolutely anything at all...

I like the simplicity of soccer style scoring 3 for a win, 1 for a tie and 0 for a loss well enough.

All Throne of Skulls is about is playing well as the only player using X army, or the only one playing well in while every other army using the same force tanks.

The more thought I give it, the more I feel it fails for anyone interested in competition - from limited battle only players to complete (and the truly Hardcore) hobbiests.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

This is GW. Their format could change by next year. I've seen it happen before so maybe the guy in charge of the GW Tourney Circuit will change it up a bit.

I'd happily suggest that people that are talking to him regularly (Indy GT TO's) should bring up their concerns directly to him and see what they can do. Also examples of things like the NovaOpen selling out 1.5 months early will help the arguements as well.

CptZach wrote:...have a big event, just show up and play some random games. Oh and then we will score you on it so that some random person wins.,,,bring Dark Angels, Tau, Necrons and play well with them and randomly get first place. ...probably go 3-2 and still win if I get enough other soft scores....Where is the fun in that?

Yup. I wouldn't want to go either, with that kind of ridiculous scoring system. Essentially it's a handicap by how rare your army list is? I almost couldn't believe what was written there, really? That's like strategic random comp, probably the single worst scoring idea I have ever heard.

Painting issues aside, does anyone really think a handicap based on the numbers of like codex armies showing up makes any sense at all?

I was kind of shocked to read that in the op and then NOT see 2 pages of posts saying:

"That doesn't make any sense."

Because it doesn't. Who cares what their painting standards, sports and missions are, if the whole thing is skewed by granting 'rare' armies a potentially significant handicap, what incentive is there to show up with a common army at all?

I think there is a certain Bizarro-world logic to it. As schadenfreude points out, it looks like an attempt to compensate for the observable differential in quality between different codices. Also, as many people have noticed, GW has clearly attempted to swipe a couple of concepts from Privateer in recent years. Most notably in the increased usage of special/named characters, but the Best of Faction award is something Privateer’s done for quite a few years now too.

The system has some virtues. First, you are being compared primarily to other people playing the same army, so that does compensate a bit for armies like IG which are monsters, and give additional incentive for people to bring rarer armies. That should hopefully result in a wider range of armies seen there, and not quite the same usual massive concentration of SM & IG. There’s no chipmunking possible. No subjectivity in paint or sports scoring. Just one vote for your favorite army, on whatever criteria you prefer.

Overall I’m not really a fan, though. As others have noted, there’s already a lot of luck in tournaments, in terms of matchups, what kind of missions and terrain you get (shooty wanting more open, assaulty generally wanting more cover), and against which opponents. This setup seems to put a player’s finish even more outside the player’s control, by making their success also dependent on the results achieved by other players who they’re not directly facing.

If I win a ticket, I’ll almost certainly still go. The overall player quality will be high, and there’ll be the usual fun of a GT, in traveling and playing and socializing.

I do wish people wouldn’t go looking to be offended, though. There are at least two posts in this thread from people taking exception to misreadings of other poster’s opinions. Nosferatu actually posted in support of requiring painting but removing the need for master painting, which is a traditional competitive-player’s position, and Dash somehow read that as an attack. Mattias posted some very reasonable and rational thoughts on GW’s unwillingness/inability to run what the hardcore competitive define as a “true” competitive event, and Luthon somehow misinterpreted this as being an attack on Ardboyz. Enhance your calm, guys.

Couple of thoughts on this:

"Should I goto vegas?" If your finances are in order, if you have ability to take PTO from a full time job, if your family is ok with it, you should ALWAYS goto vegas! its an awesome town with lots to see and experience even if you don't like booze and gambling. Its an excuse for a vacation, to meeting some games and roll some dice, your going to walk away going "that was a good weekend, but there are factors to consider such as...

"Can i get my army to Vegas?" Simple conversation with yourself. Can I get my army in a carry on? Will my army be safe, and can i fit clothes for a weekend. This is linked to finances, but roughly if your answers are yes part of your answers are made.

"Will I have fun at the event?" That's the kicker questions. You could really run into some hard games, and a couple of not so enjoyable opponents. But overall, you'll probably run into 3 other guys you won't mind having a beer with, 1 guy whose ok, and 1 guy who annoyed you but still aint that bad.

Bottom line: factor in those, then add in if you want to spend the money, go for it!

IMHO, something like this is exactly what the hobby needs. The uber-competitive 'ard boyz spirit has been driving away a significant fraction of hobbyists the past few years. This is the ying to the 'ard-boyz yang, as was mentioned previously. And of course the uber-competitives want to remake everything else in their image, but thats just not going to happen.

Personally I think this new tournamet format is quite inspired. I'm actually looking forward to giving this a go. Maybe I'll finally start painting up my Sisters....

The problem is, this hurts the NONCOMPETITIVE people the most, in a lot of ways that have been clearly elucidated. It's a BAD format, IT'S NOT A "HOBBY FRIENDLY" FORMAT.


Bad =! Hobby Friendly

So are we certain that Vegas is going to be scored in a similar fashion to the Throne of skulls tourny?
In my opinion there should be painting, and sportsmanship scores involved. But they should be balanced and 4 "first" places should be awarded. This gives everyone something to shoot for. Be it best painted, overall or best general. That being said, sports should have no effect on best general and painting should have no effect on sportsmanship.

MVBrandt wrote:/blush

I posted about throne of skulls here ...
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/06/throne-of-skulls-thoughts-on.html


You should hop on the wait list Sarigar ... there are several people coming from the SC/NC area, hitch a ride

Thanks for the comments, regardless ... much appreciated.

Appreciate the link. I've read the format, but it seems like it will be for GW run events (maybe I'm wrong). GW has only announced one event they are actually running, Vegas GT. Is it an indicator we're getting GTs in the future and this will be the new format? Ehh, I'd rather go to an indy GT then. Paying lots of $$$ just to play 5 randomly matched up players seems comparable to me going to the local shop for 5 pick up games.

I'm from NC, but currently deployed in Iraq. Otherwise, I'd have signed up months ago.

General Hobbs wrote:

So...someone correct me if I am wrong....

I go to a tournament, and win all 5 games. That's 15 points. I get 1 favorite opponent vote. Yeah for me.

2320837027302 other space marine players show up. Their average score is say, 8.

16-8 = 8. My final score is 8.

Now, Joe Blow shows up with Blood Angels. He gets 3 wins for 9 points, a point for a draw, and a loss for a total of 10 points. 20 other players show up. The average score for them is 1. Joe Blow...who lost games mind you...ends up with a final score of 10-1 = 8.

OK a little farfetched...

(but what if only 1 of an army type shows up? and he wins alot....)

Guess who wins the tournament.....

Yup...not the guy who went undefeated, but the guy who lost games, solely because other players showed up who sucked.

You could really rig a tournament like this...bring a good Tau list, and have a couple buddies show up and throw all their games. You end up with a high final score.

( for anyone who has not read the rules, you get a 3 for a win, 1 for draw, and a 0 for a loss. You get +1 for 1 favorite opponent vote, +3 for 2 votes, and +5 for 3 votes. Finally, you take your score, and subtract the average score for all the armies of the type you are playing. ).

How about if 3 Necron players show up...one guy scores 16, and the other 2 get 10 points. The average score is 12. so that 16 now = a 4. You get screwed for being a good player....

This system seems to take the idea that armies win games....

I wonder if they will be using this in Vegas?????

I'm totally confused about the scoring.
Average score 8 or 12 or what?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1260041a_ToS_FAQ_02Jul10_WW.pdf

..err...that's helpful....

Jesus.....

So it's random pairing is only if you've lost a game? Basically once you lose they don't care who you play . At least I think that's what I read....As long as the undefeated players are playing undefeated players I feel a lot better about the tourney in general.

ANNND, no DH/WH codices, only the online pdf's ... which is completely contradictory to a statement published on the same GW website.

Welcome to absurdity.