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I'm not sure if we're talking from a purely UK perspective, or if we're talking about the West as a whole, but imho, I have to say it is simply one of the many many things we in the West have to look at, shake our heads and say: "There ought to be a law."

Additionally, on the jobs point, I have to say that it all depends on the person. A well educated, experienced gay immigrant will help a nation the same as a poorly educated, straight man relying on the welfare system will drain on an economy. Even more importantly, even if they do make a lot of money from their labor, some of that money may very well be sent back to their families in their home county, and therefor not help their host nation.

Beyond that, I have to say that the West has bigger refugee problems to worry about than homosexual rights. I personally think refugees from genocide and other things deserve our attention more than homosexual prosecution.

The persecution of gays has been going on for long enough. We need to stop it. Perhaps there might be some kind of Final Solution we can use...

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:The persecution of gays has been going on for long enough. We need to stop it. Perhaps there might be some kind of Final Solution we can use...

There are lots of things that have been going on for a long time that should be stopped. War, poverty, starvation......all those things SHOULD be stopped. However, there are major logistical problems with going out there and 'stopping' something.

Number 1 on that list is simple cultural differences. The West has this idea that ONLY Western ideals are true civilization, but many in the Middle East and the rest of the world would disagree. Who are we to say that they MUST do things OUR Western way? What gives us that right? What makes their culture 'barbaric' and in need of 'stopping' ?

Moral philosophy.

That really doesn't answer the question.

Yes, the West's moral philosophy is that all of that should be stopped and ended, but our moral philosophy is not everyone's moral philosophy. Why do we have the right to impose our philosophy on everyone else?

ChrisWWII wrote:Number 1 on that list is simple cultural differences. The West has this idea that ONLY Western ideals are true civilization, but many in the Middle East and the rest of the world would disagree. Who are we to say that they MUST do things OUR Western way? What gives us that right? What makes their culture 'barbaric' and in need of 'stopping' ?

The marrying of 8yr old girls to men in their 40s, which does involve sex is absolutely abhorrent to my morality.

The subjugation of women and their de-humanisation and persecution of those who seek education is absolutely abhorrent to my morality.

The stoning to death of a 20 year old girl for 'witchcraft' because a man claims she made him impotent is absolutely abhorrent to my morality.

The raising of children to seek martyrdom by violent death is absolutely abhorrent to my morality.

The burning of book, persecution of intelligence and demonising of science is absolutely abhorrent to my morality.

And I belong to a group of nations which are militarily the most advanced on earth, the massive majority of citizens in these nations agree with me.
These cultures ARE barbaric in our eyes, we should stop shying away from the notions of enforcing our morality on them instead of allowing them to continue to enforce their morality on us.

We should be changing these cultures not allowing them to change ours.

Liberal personal freedoms, education, equality and tolerance... or else.

Our moral philosophy is a disciplined body of knowledge and thinking going back over 2,000 years.

While it contains many strands, it offers tools for critical thinking about what constitutes right conduct.

These allow us to consider an issue like "should homosexuals be persecuted" from a variety of views, and come to a conclusion which has been considered in depth and can be considered to be right.

The views of much of the world on homosexuals are what they were in Europe and the USA until the 1950s. Namely, based on a variety of religious, patriarchal and homophobic patterns of thought without critical analysis.

Once people understand what is right conduct, we should practice it ourselves and try to educate other people who do not yet understand. We should also try to protect to the best of our ability, other people who are suffering from wrongful persecution.

MGS wrote:Liberal personal freedoms, education, equality and tolerance... or else.

Or else we stay in Iraq and Afghanistan permanently, fighting against something that we fail to understand in it's entirety.

Are notions of subjugation so morally superior, to the point which we would continue wars that prove nothing to our own populace? I don't get it, it makes very little sense. My neighbor bob pissed me off once, then he moved to another city, and I was still kind of pissed off about how he pissed me off.

One day I turned on the news and saw that bob had been a very bad man. The problem here is that bob is not a collection of people millions, if not billions strong. We should not presume we even have the ability to bring our version of morality into foreign nations. It is a great way to get stuck in wars that last decades... wait a minute...

We can't afford it, and I think we can afford a lot of things.

ChrisWWII wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:The persecution of gays has been going on for long enough. We need to stop it. Perhaps there might be some kind of Final Solution we can use...

There are lots of things that have been going on for a long time that should be stopped. War, poverty, starvation......all those things SHOULD be stopped. However, there are major logistical problems with going out there and 'stopping' something.

You entirely missed the point behind his post.

@Warboss: What you did there. I sawed it.

Wrexasaur wrote:

MGS wrote:Liberal personal freedoms, education, equality and tolerance... or else.

Or else we stay in Iraq and Afghanistan permanently, fighting against something that we fail to understand in it's entirety.

Are notions of subjugation so morally superior, to the point which we would continue wars that prove nothing to our own populace? I don't get it, it makes very little sense. My neighbor bob pissed me off once, then he moved to another city, and I was still kind of pissed off about how he pissed me off.

One day I turned on the news and saw that bob had been a very bad man. The problem here is that bob is not a collection of people millions, if not billions strong. We should not presume we even have the ability to bring our version of morality into foreign nations. It is a great way to get stuck in wars that last decades... wait a minute...

We can't afford it, and I think we can afford a lot of things.

If we stay permanently, then lets do it correctly, establish a full time administration, alter the education system in the country to reinforce the right message, neuter their religious leadership and annihilate the insurgency with total and overwhelming force.

We, the West, continue to fail in both these fronts because we don't take the gloves off and start responding as we should. The Americans because you have never conquered and due to your own freedom fight you have a fear of empire building, the Brits because we're afraid of returning to how we were, because we suffer a guilt over it and think that it was bad.

Our dominion over other nations was not nearly so bad as the dictatorships and regimes many of them fell under after we left. Perhaps direct rule was not the worst thing to happen to the nations we assimilated into the empire, I certainly remember the footage from Zimbabwe of tribal elders begging the BBC correspondent to request the Queen to reconquer the nation and install fair rule.

IMO our continued failure as a military power in facing this new threat is to fight them with a large airforce and carpet bombing, it didn't work in Vietnam and it's not working here.
We as nations should be training and aggressively recruiting larger and larger special forces units and refining them into total bastards to turn loose on the enemy, teach the terrorists real terror.

MeanGreenStompa wrote: I vote we have more of them and kick the estate dwelling chavs spawning like rabbits and having no intention of doing anything other than appear on Jeremy Kyle's show and wear 'sports fashion' clothes should immediately be shipped out to zimbabwe and iran and other fun-packed nations. They can take the sponging toffs in their lauded manors as well.

See, i agree with you on so many things MGS, and then you come out with this unnecessary gak.

I dont know what happened to you in your youth that has turned you into a foaming lunatic whenever wealthy people get mentioned, but it makes no sense to spam such vitriol every chance that you get.

Sponging toffs? The only "toffs" that get anything from the tax payer "free" are the Royals. And they work for it, the queen averages more than one engagement a day for the betterment of this nation, Harry served in Afghanistan when i was there, frankly. I think they deserve a pay rise.

And how much tax do you think Dyson pays? Or Mike Ashley? Or even Jamie Oliver, i read he gave 2 million to charity recently as well. Do you honestly think that people who are in the top tax bracket are "spongers" as well because they might happen to get the occasional tax break? Explain that to me if you please.

Poor people, now there is some spongers. Im a poor person, but i dragged myself up, so did you, your a good guy, you work hard too. Many poor people dont. Most of Middlesbrough doesnt, its "free" money to them.

Jeremy Kyle for example, lots of spongers on there, how many of them are toffs?

My brother worked his way up a corporate ladder, he did a YTS when he left school, now he earns 90 grand a year, but he works about 60 hours a week for that money, and the tax man takes half of it. Is he a sponger as well?

You are an otherwise intelligent man, far too intelligent to turn into Bristols answer to Yozzer Hughes every single chance you can take a shot at people you percieve to be "well off", so i suggest you start thinking a bit more before you type your vitriolic rants.

There are many fine generous poor people, there are many fine generous rich people. None of us can choose the manner of our births, be it pigsty or palace, and its how you live your life that counts. You really do have serious issues regarding this manner mate, and i wish you would stop harping on about it simply because its your own personal chip on your shoulder.

Fat cat bonuses, even at the height of the global recession for the chairs and directors of banks held aloft with tax payers money...

Aristocrats dwelling in mansions with colossal estates, claiming grants to renovate and maintain this whilst believing it their right to dwell there and not work.

This nation isn't just on it's knees because the underclass brought it there. Its there because greedy bastards at the top couldn't stop taking bigger and bigger slices of the pie.

What breaks my fething heart Mattyrm, is that you've served as a soldier of this nation, you've been sent into the front line against people who want to kill you and you know that the weapons and equipment you carried were the cheapest option some double-barrelled Rupert somewhere thought they could get away with, the requisition signed at 11am so they could piss off for an early lunch in a fancy restaurant and claim it as a fething expense.

Also please realise that the example you gave isn't what I'm talking about, I don't mind businessmen being successful. Inovators and Entrepreneurs aren't what the problem is here, it's freeloaders and the back-scratchers who suffocate and stagnate business that I loathe.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Fat cat bonuses, even at the height of the global recession for the chairs and directors of banks held aloft with tax payers money...

Aristocrats dwelling in mansions with colossal estates, claiming grants to renovate and maintain this whilst believing it their right to dwell there and not work.

This nation isn't just on it's knees because the underclass brought it there. Its there because greedy bastards at the top couldn't stop taking bigger and bigger slices of the pie.

What breaks my fething heart Mattyrm, is that you've served as a soldier of this nation, you've been sent into the front line against people who want to kill you and you know that the weapons and equipment you carried were the cheapest option some double-barrelled Rupert somewhere thought they could get away with, the requisition signed at 11am so they could piss off for an early lunch in a fancy restaurant and claim it as a fething expense.

Also please realise that the example you gave isn't what I'm talking about, I don't mind businessmen being successful. Inovators and Entrepreneurs aren't what the problem is here, it's freeloaders and the back-scratchers who suffocate and stagnate business that I loathe.

Please, call me Matty.

Agreed on all counts mate.

I served under about 50 officers, and loads were posh, and some were almost literally as bad as the ones you see on Sharpe shows. Most the RM ones were good i have to say, as they dont go near Sandhurst. The posh buggers that come from there.. well.. sure there were lots were dicks, In fact, if i could have gotten away with it like they did i the old days i can catergorically say i would have happily shot a few of them.

But, some good genuine people came out of Sandhurst, they might talk they they a pair of plums in their fething mouth, but they care about their men. And this is what im talking about. All im saying is that you Polarize far too readily, I dont hate poor people as im working class myself, but there are some fething bad eggs amongst them, and its no different with the privilaged.

Now policiticans... i can almost agree with you there. Im willing to bet 95% of them are scumbags, why else get into the job in the first place? But this begs the question, why hate the Royals so much then?

Anyway, hijacking my thread..

Just tone it down abit Yozza eh? You seem a nice bloke, i would hate to have to shoot you if you throw a brick at the Queen or something.

mattyrm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Is it that big a problem?

Also please note that the assumption that gay people don't have any useful skills or talents is basically wrong.

Uh?

How on earth did you get that from what i wrote?

Gay men are identical to straight men, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

The point is, illiterate halfwits from gak hole countries without good educations systems dont have many useful talents. It has absolutely nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

And a few thousand? You think there are only a few thousand?

And maybe about a billion who would happily lie about it. gak, what are they going to do to get you to "prove" it? Make you hump a dude in front of the jury?!

The point is, it seems like an easy free passport to me. And this gak pisses me off, my American missus is having a nightmare getting her visa renewed, i bet she would be better off if she was a peasant from Cameroon who could claim she was munching rug.

Just wow...

CT GAMER wrote:Just wow...

Come on then big man, prove me wrong. "Just wow" is no argument.

There hasnt been a single good answer to my question yet, are you going to take a shot at it?

Ok i am an illegal immigrant. I came over from Iran, got caught in the back of a truck in Folkestone and i say this

"sob.. i must.. i must stay here.. i claim ayslum, in Iran, they see me kissing my boy friend, now if i go home.. they shoot me! I will be tortured and murdered if i go home!"

Prove me wrong.

Prove me wrong or provide me with housing, food, water, electricity and clothing. Your paying by the way. Thanks for that.

mattyrm wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Just wow...

Come on then big man, prove me wrong. "Just wow" is no argument.

There hasnt been a single good answer to my question yet, are you going to take a shot at it?

Greg King wrote:Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

CT GAMER wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Just wow...

Come on then big man, prove me wrong. "Just wow" is no argument.

There hasnt been a single good answer to my question yet, are you going to take a shot at it?

Greg King wrote:Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So rather than give a vallid response to the question posed you have resorted to calling someone an idiot. Very mature.

CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

Based on his comments here there's no particular reason to assume CT Gamer is a liberal.

Fateweaver wrote:CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

I believe I was called "big man" first. Do I need to explain the connotation of such name calling in the context of his post, or is your reflex action to ignore what is convenient to ignore?

Don't answer though, I'm not really all that interested to be honest.

Enjoy your thread.

ChrisWWII wrote:Number 1 on that list is simple cultural differences. The West has this idea that ONLY Western ideals are true civilization, but many in the Middle East and the rest of the world would disagree. Who are we to say that they MUST do things OUR Western way? What gives us that right? What makes their culture 'barbaric' and in need of 'stopping' ?

Twoddle.

You are basically saying we should be tolerant of other societies intolerance.

If we have ideals and societal norms in the West, we should believe in them enough to want other people to benefit from them. If we don't believe in our own ideals enough to want to encourage them, we should accept someone else's ideals.

We have to have the courage of our own convictions.

MGS wrote:If we stay permanently, then lets do it correctly, establish a full time administration, alter the education system in the country to reinforce the right message, neuter their religious leadership and annihilate the insurgency with total and overwhelming force.

What convinces you that it is even close to remotely possible, to do any of those things? What is an insurgency to you? Is it an army?

We, the West, continue to fail in both these fronts because we don't take the gloves off and start responding as we should. The Americans because you have never conquered and due to your own freedom fight you have a fear of empire building, the Brits because we're afraid of returning to how we were, because we suffer a guilt over it and think that it was bad.

I read this as, 'nuke them'.

Here is an interesting thread. I have read that more bombs have been dropped in the middle east conflict than that of the total dropped in WW2... from all countries combined. I am sure there is a middle ground here, but even conservative estimates are quite mind-boggling.

Our dominion over other nations was not nearly so bad as the dictatorships and regimes many of them fell under after we left. Perhaps direct rule was not the worst thing to happen to the nations we assimilated into the empire, I certainly remember the footage from Zimbabwe of tribal elders begging the BBC correspondent to request the Queen to reconquer the nation and install fair rule.

Which countries are you talking about specifically, because I was under the impression this conversation was in regard the the Middle east, and not Africa. I don't agree with your sentiments either way, and find it silly to assume we can fight this problem in the ways that you suggest. I also think that the U.S., U.K, and many parts of the E.U. (if not the E.U. in it's entirety) have a great many problems to sort out, and maintaining a war of what I consider no more than ideology in most cases, seems completely unsustainable even with the current 'timeline'. I think we will be there nearly 5 more years, and it won't change much of anything, besides limiting our ability to address a larger set of problems effectively.

IMO our continued failure as a military power in facing this new threat is to fight them with a large airforce and carpet bombing, it didn't work in Vietnam and it's not working here.

Send more troops?

We as nations should be training and aggressively recruiting larger and larger special forces units and refining them into total bastards to turn loose on the enemy, teach the terrorists real terror.

I have no problem with special forces being used over the long-term, as long as it doesn't mean we have to spend another trillion dollars supporting an entire army, kind of half-assing nation building. Regardless, I think the outcome will be something along the lines of what you just described, though probably not in such a zealous fashion. 5 years and we are out, but there are still investments taking place on a more cost-effective scale.

Aside that as well, there will be little in terms of forcing democracy in the region, and hopefully a good deal more diplomacy.

Fateweaver wrote:CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

Ah, the intellectual speaks... hhhhhhere's Basketweaver!!

But wait! It's the wrong time of the day for you to be posting you naughty imp! Shouldn't you be dancing round your house like buffalo bill in silence of the lambs, crown jewels tucked up between your legs, doing poor impressions of Sarah Palin?

"Imaa mavvvrik!"

"Africa is a countree!!"

"Guns make me feel smart"

"libruls are the devul"

"My daughter's a whore!!"

Work it girlfriend...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

Ah, the intellectual speaks... hhhhhhere's Basketweaver!!

But wait! It's the wrong time of the day for you to be posting you naughty imp! Shouldn't you be dancing round your house like buffalo bill in silence of the lambs, crown jewels tucked up between your legs, doing poor impressions of Sarah Palin?

"Imaa mavvvrik!"

"Africa is a countree!!"

"Guns make me feel smart"

"libruls are the devul"

"My daughter's a whore!!"

Work it girlfriend...

MGS have you been drinking paint thinners again? either way your last few posts have had me laughing pretty damn hard

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:The persecution of gays has been going on for long enough. We need to stop it. Perhaps there might be some kind of Final Solution we can use...

NICE

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

Ah, the intellectual speaks... hhhhhhere's Basketweaver!!

But wait! It's the wrong time of the day for you to be posting you naughty imp! Shouldn't you be dancing round your house like buffalo bill in silence of the lambs, crown jewels tucked up between your legs, doing poor impressions of Sarah Palin?

"Imaa mavvvrik!"

"Africa is a countree!!"

"Guns make me feel smart"

"libruls are the devul"

"My daughter's a whore!!"

Work it girlfriend...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:CT Gamer is a Liberal. It's a reflex action when faced with a question he can't answer or won't answer.

Ah, the intellectual speaks... hhhhhhere's Basketweaver!!

But wait! It's the wrong time of the day for you to be posting you naughty imp! Shouldn't you be dancing round your house like buffalo bill in silence of the lambs, crown jewels tucked up between your legs, doing poor impressions of Sarah Palin?

"Imaa mavvvrik!"

"Africa is a countree!!"

"Guns make me feel smart"

"libruls are the devul"

"My daughter's a whore!!"

Work it girlfriend...

Harsh, man.

MGS is feeling particularily classy today.

I'm actually kind of impressed.