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Please explain how you can wound *single wound* models (the crew) with a multiwound shot and do more than one wound.

I have provided rules quotes, simply requoting yourself does not help - I have provided additional explanation, you do the same or dont bother to post.


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Page 109 - "The crews armoue save is still used to attempt to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they that the attack is attempting to slay

1) you are trying to wound the crew (proven - see above)
2) the crew have one wound per model
3) mutiwound shots cannot remove more than the total number of wounds on the model

c1) only 1 wound per wounding hit is possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your conclusion of "you are still wounding the warmachine" is incorrect - as you demonstrably NOT wounding the warmachine.

pg. 108 - "When the war machine suffers a wound..."

OK,

I'll repeat the quote you haven't addressed:

"The crew are ONLY used to indicate the remaining number of wounds and the number of attacks..."

How do you make sense of this statement? I've asked you several times to explain this.

Also (p108)

"The war machine's wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models (which is stated in the war machine's entry)"

Why is this statement included in the rules?

I hope we are agreed that the "for completeness" point added nothing to either side of the debate.

So, your whole argument is now based on this one sentence?

"The crews armoue save is still used to attempt to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they that the attack is attempting to slay"

This is not proof that you have to wound the crew individually. It simply explains why the WM gets an armour save. The whole section otherwise makes it very clear that you target the war machine unit, and that within this unit the crew are nothing more than markers for remaining wounds.

"Please explain how you can wound *single wound* models (the crew) with a multiwound shot and do more than one wound."

I would try if that was what I was saying, but I'm not. As demonstrated by Killjoy, a multiwound war machine unit is taking wounds. That point is what the whole debate hangs on.

Read my quote re: page 109. It puts yours into context.

Warmachine in this context is the name of the entire unit, as the section title is "warmachines". They use it interchangeably to mean botht he cannon/stonethrower / whatever AS WELL AS the entire unit.

If you read the entire rules in context this because clearer. Page 109 states, unambiguously, that you are trying to kill the crew and NOT the actual warmachine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh? I have already explained it: it doesnt help your side nor mine.

the statement from page 108 proves my side, not yours - as it proves that you remove the crew, and you are thus wounidng the crew, and the crew are single wound models.

It DOES prove you are attempting to wound the crew, because it states you are trying to kill rthe crew. As unsaved wound = kill you have a direct relation.

It is not 100% clear like it used to be, however there is FAR more evidence on the side of wounding the crew (the unambigupous statement that you are trying to kill them, for one) and thus the prohibition on causing more wounds than are on a profile kicks in.

Agree to disagree and await FAQ?

I think: agree that the preponderence of evidence (that the wounds characteristic, the ONLY place where you have multiple wounds possible is not used for anything AND you are told you are wounding (killing) the crew AND you are told you remove 1 wound models when you succesfully wound) is on the side of 1 hit = 1 wound, regardless of multi wound - it is not "beyond all reasonable doubt" but certainly greater than 50%.

Never mind. I'm leaving this here. I'm reassured that most people agree with me.

We found the equivalent of the 7th edition giants thump with club and armor saves!!!!!

YAY!!!

This is going to be argued by both sides until the FaQ for the new brb comes out.

I'll bring it up at the club, see what people think there....
It seems such a massive change from 7th to NOT be made more clear if they wanted to change it.

Woot. In Faq:

Q: A war machine is wounded by a hit with the Multiple Wounds
special rule. Is the number of Wounds lost limited to 1? (p45)
A: No.

And a heroic killing blow finishes the unit off as well. Hadn't thought of that.

Awesome, said it needed FAQ'ing!

Warmachines are simultaneously harder and easier to kill....

It's funny that a bret character with the heroic killing blow taking out Thorek, his assistant, the Anvil guards, and destroy the anvil all in one blow...

quick question on multiple wounds and templates:

If there is a unit of 3 dragon ogres and one dragon ogre in the middle has 3 wounds on it. The unit is hit with rock lobba with it centered on the middle model. The S9 hit and 1 of the S3 hits wounds. The S3 hit is saved and the S9 hit rolls a 4 for wounds caused. How many Dragon Ogres are left?

A)2. One unwounded and one with 3 wounds
B)2 unwounded
C)other, please explain

B

The rule for multi-wound attacks vs multi-wound models says that you can do up to the wounds of the models profile. That says you can do 4 to the model and the other 3 carry over to others.

Wow, those two paragraphs on page 45 are a complete and utter mess.

Let's say that you have a unit of 3W models. Apparently, if you had three separate 2W attacks inflicted on that unit, you'd get:
1st attack: No models removed, just two left over wounds.
2nd attack: The two left over wounds add in to this attack, killing one model and the excess wound is lost. Two models left in the unit.
3rd attack: Two guys, and two left over wounds.

But if all three attacks came in at once, then you'd remove two complete models.

when i read that rule and it says "noting any spare wounds on the unit" that implies that the wounds carry over. Which is reinforced by the rule for models with more than one wound on the same page which says "any leftover wounds that are not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by any subsequent attacks."

The multi-wound weapon rule also says you use that method for weapons that cause hits on every model in unit. So, say you had a template that had D3 multi wound special rule, and you hit a unit with it. Every model that failed it's save would suffer D3 wounds. You then find the total number of wounds then distribute them against all models removing whole models first and carrying over any that don't kill. That's how I read it when you combine the 2 rules.

The question for me is whether the 3 wounds are actually recorded on the individual model in the middle or just "on the unit" in general. If the model in the middle has taken 3 wounds, he can only suffer 1 more wound. Therefore only 1 additional wound would be allocated to the unit and only one model would be removed with no additional carryover.

But the more I read pg. 45 I'm not sure it means to track wounds this way. I don't think the "middle model" can have 3 wounds - rather the unit has 3 wounds. In which case the middle model can suffer 4 wounds and you would remove 1 model plus carry over the 3 wounds.

Where it says that you can only take wounds equal to the wounds on your profile and not remaining wounds says that even though he only has 1 wound remaining the attack can inflict 4 wounds (number on his profile) with the remaining wounds carrying over. Anyone else got any insight on this matter?

pg 45 under Multi-Wound Models and Multi-Wound Weapons, along with the section Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds.

If 3 Chaos Ogres (3 wounds each) are hit with a cannon, the most wounds they can suffer are 9 (3 models with 3 wounds each). So if you roll a 6, 4, and 2, the Ogres would take 8 wounds (3+3+2, no more than 3 per model hit), two would die, and one would have two wounds. If one already had two wounds on it, three would die and one Chaos Ogre would have one wound on it.