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Predators:

18 Heavy Bolters
6 Autocannons

------------------------------ To hit

12 Heavy Bolters
4 Autocannons

------------------------------- To wound

8 Heavy Bolters
3~4 autocannons

Just under two die.

Vindicator, assuming with maximum spreading in a line.

Two templates scatters way off course. (for arguments sake)

2 + 2/3 wounds

Just under two die.

Can predators get lucky? Yeah.

Can vindicators get luckier? Yes.

I think the vindicators would have a better chance on account of having better shots if they were luckier.

Also, the template scatters three inches on average, which may or may not get another terminator under the template.

It's not a very fair comparison to stack up 3 predators against 1 vindicator, and also to compare what dakka preds to worst to what vindis do best. I grant that three dakka predators aren't going to be able to kill 10 terminators with one shooting phase. They need more like six.

But you'd need a really lucky shot, no cover, and a lot of failed invulnerable saves to kill 10 terminators with one vindicator blast too. And of course, if you miss, then those terminators are in your face killing you in two turns tops.

And 3 dakka predators are going to be able to kill 1.5 terminators, roughly, per turn reliably if they have to. And they kill storm shield terminators equally as well as shooty terminators. From 36" away.

For me, I prefer the reliability and predictability of non-blast weapons.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Predators:

18 Heavy Bolters
...stuff.

You mistake the point of my last post .

And plenty of horde, too. And light vehcles, too.

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's not a very fair comparison to stack up 3 predators against 1 vindicator, and also to compare what dakka preds to worst to what vindis do best. I grant that three dakka predators aren't going to be able to kill 10 terminators with one shooting phase. They need more like six.

But you'd need a really lucky shot, no cover, and a lot of failed invulnerable saves to kill 10 terminators with one vindicator blast too. And of course, if you miss, then those terminators are in your face killing you in two turns tops.

And 3 dakka predators are going to be able to kill 1.5 terminators, roughly, per turn reliably if they have to. And they kill storm shield terminators equally as well as shooty terminators. From 36" away.

For me, I prefer the reliability and predictability of non-blast weapons.

There are too many variables with these tanks.

Vindicators do 5934325% better against FnP blood angel terminators.

Dakka predators do better against monstrous creatures.

Vindicators do better against heavy vehicles.

Dakka predators do better against light vehicles.

Each heavy support option has their uses, I prefer mine because it has the ability to make its points back in a single shooting phase, and then some. Each shooting phase it is alive.

The vindicators are vulnerable to damage more, while predators can easily just show one facing.

Vindicators are capable of more damage output against marines and better.

Predators can fulfil more roles with weapons.

Vindicators are a "don't deep strike next to me" threat, while terminators or obliterators might laugh a dakka predator off of the table.

Sanctjud wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Predators:

18 Heavy Bolters
...stuff.

You mistake the point of my last post .

I had to go back and read it, though I get it now.

Pfft, the best hvy support option is obviously the Thunderfire Cannon, cause it's the only option that takes Balls to field.

And nothing says overcompensation like 60" range gun in the SMurf codex.

Devastators aren't my first choice but they can be great in some situations.

I play very often against a good necron player. When facing him I usually bring 2 or 3 10 man dev squads with plasma cannons. They really shine in that roll. Against tyranids or orks MLs are great because they can punch MCs and vehicles and also sweep away the hordes with frags.

Sanctjud wrote:Pfft, the best hvy support option is obviously the Thunderfire Cannon, cause it's the only option that takes Balls to field.

And nothing says overcompensation like 60" range gun in the SMurf codex.

Rofl. I agree. Thunderfires for the win!

3 vindis can kill ten termies too! What you take in HS really depends on your army. As I run a Salamanders type army, I like to be up close and in your face so I run 2 vindicators. My third slot is a AC/LC pred to pop a transport or 2 while I move in. Vindis are SWEEEEEET when you blow up a transport only to find the occupants nice and bunched up for you! They are also great at hitting that AV14 before your meltas get there. I like the vindicator for its tactical flexibility in being useful against all infantry and being good at hitting armor (just need to beat the scatter die) while not costing an arm and a leg. If you were running a gun line then I would totally go for dakka preds.

I love my TFC too! Nothing says death to hordes like 4 small blasts templates a turn!

Well, I see some people have some strong opinions on their heavy support choices. I actually like the Predators, myself, because I have them. i would like to try a vindicator, also. The devs were just kinda something I thought would be good to try, because I saw a SW player using his longfangs. Little did I know that Longfangs were just way better!

The TFC I support just because it looks friggin' awesome.

It is a hellaciously cool lookin model!

But it is a BIZNITCH to put together!!!!

I think (new to forums so don't rip me apart for this) That a Vindicator is better for defense, whilst the Pred is a better attacker. Say your playing an objective game, 1 vindicator (preferably in cover) could pie-plate an objective for the whole game.

I believe the reason the vindicator is crap normally is because GW makes it looks like an attack tank ("Linebreaker" squadron). But attacking with a Vindicator sucks because either you get a weapon destroyed (tank is now useless), or you get immobilised (now they can stay out of the range and once again the tank is useless) or you miss. Overall at a guesstimate there is a 1/4 chance that your vindicator will do anything if you play it offensivley.


But hey, it's just my opinion .

Honestly, every non-Land Raider Heavy Support choice except for the Devastator Squad (and Sergeant Chronus) seems viable to me. Land Raiders, of course, are also potent, but the Land Raider/Terminator style of Marines is not really my cup of tea.

Predators with heavy bolter sponsons are a good, cheap torrent tank. They tend to lack power in comparison to a properly used Whirlwind or Thunderfire, but are also more versatile against widely dispersed units, monstrous creatures, and even light vehicles. Predators with lascannon sponsons can do a decent job of hunting tanks, though I prefer to fill this role with units from different segments of the FOC. Neither variant should take a twin-linked lascannon turret, as it is at least 25 points overpriced and a very marginal selection in general in games below 2,500 points.

Whirlwinds are devastating against infantry, especially infantry in cover. They are particularly good at rooting out Pathfinders and the like. On the minus side, they have very little versatility, though they can be used against Chimera hull vehicles in a pinch.

Thunderfire Cannons are extremely powerful, have very long range, can be used for Bolster Defenses, and are generally very difficult to get KPs from thanks to the weird artillery rules. That said, they can be diminished somewhat by opponents who space out their models heavily, so you have to be careful to set up good shots. Thunderfires also aren't particularly strong against vehicles, though they aren't terrible at it either. Note that the TFC's tremor rounds are an especially good trick against bikers and jump pack troops.

Vindicators boast the biggest gun in the Codex, Orbital Bombardment aside. They are rightfully terrifying to enemy Deep Strikers and can engage almost any unit effectively. However, they are hampered by cover-- Stealthy units in particular have nothing to fear-- and their weak side armor becomes more of a danger when they are 24" away, while Predators can often lurk 36-48" away and generally avoid exposing their vulnerable rears.

Last but not least, Dreadnoughts (when taken with a Master of the Forge) are remarkably flexible units that can either boast high shooting power with the Mortis (dual AC) configuration or be versatile and threatening vehicles capable of engaging the enemy with both shooting and assault. I have little experience with Ironclad Dreadnoughts, but I am under the impression that they are similarly threatening, if-- like the Mortis-- more focused on one of the two combat phases. Venerable Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, are generally overpriced and should be avoided.

Agreed, nothing is really over the top.
It ends up being a personal choice in the matter of supplimenting or complimenting the rest of the list.

In addition, the SMurfs get essentially a discount on most of them, so it's not hard to add a little of each.

I recently played a game vs some orks, and my preds really did a good job shredding up his trukks, and I used some devs, who really did an awesome job at killifying his squishies after I popped his armor.

I use dakka preds, because SM don't have much mid strength shooting outside 24 inches. The pred is great at suppressing AV 10-12 from range, which is very important considering how many rhino and chimera hulls there are. Also the longer range is critical on trying to combat eldar grav tanks. If you have a 24 inch army (which is a trap I see SM falling into to) you pretty much lose to eldar, get destroyed by dark eldar, and have little chance vs tau.

The other reason why I use dakka preds in SM lists, is in the vanilla book there isn't very many good options other than this. Devastators are way to inefficient (because they were good last book probably, go GW) vindicators are hit or miss then die (or lose their gun which might as well be the same thing) The TFC is a funny unit, with an unfortunate rule set (look up artillery rules in the main rule book for a look into crap unit types). Whirlwinds could be good, but have the same issue that vindis have, but only AV 11 (and thus die to auto cannon or loota fire in the only matchups where they are supposedly good) Lander raiders can be used as dedicated transports by the the units that usually should be riding them.