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Soup and a roll wrote:Proposed rule:

Shotguns combine with the scout upgrade 'Leather jacket and shades, 1pt/model'. Bestows ability to shoot one handed while spouting Arnie quotes. Targeted enemy units suffering a wound must take a leadership test or fall back. Rolls of 1 to hit cause a wound on the firing model due to arm rupturing.

Hello,

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Ok this thread did get outta control, yes my scouts are armed wiht shotties, but I was just thinkin' more along the lines of kinda like combie-weps'-one shot with a different type of ammo, thats it.

Sure, as a purchased upgrade that'd be fine by me.

Yeah, I hafta say shotguns are just fine as is. The additional types of ammo would make sense, however, on the scout squads. I mean, their Heavy Bolters already come with Hellfire shells, I don't think it would be too far of a stretch fluff-wise to imagine them taking specialist ammunition. And the already proposed diffirent types of ammunition seem pretty reasonable. Maybe purchased at a few extra points per model.

Not talking about the template idea! Im sorry, but that really is a horrible idea. No troop choice should be able to take a template weapon standard. It's absolutely ridiculous to think a shotgun would have that much scatter and still be S3, even.

And one final thing. Rending?!
NO. Just no. That is the most ridiculous idea I've heard since FOREVER.

I tested with my lil bro the template idea...yeah thats a no. supreme over kill every time. Even trying the S3. I'm on his list now.

I think special issue ammo for scout shotguns would be an excellent way to go, but not for troops in the standard marine codex. Now if they were bs 4 and ws 4 and were elite choices that had access to special issue ammunition options for their shotguns they would basically be a more sneaky shotgunny version of sternguard veterans. Something I would rather have instead of better shotguns? I want my bs 4 scouts back because bs 4 shotguns are better than bs 3 shotguns

I don't think there is a squad that has WS/BS 4 and shotguns. But there ARE squads that have BS 4 and shotguns (Adeptus Arbites and Imperial Guard Veterans).

If you want BS4 scouts go play a non-codex army (IE, Space Wolves). Using C:SM, the armies follow the Codex Astartes, which causes their scouts to be their least experienced and least skilled fighters.

Dark Angel Scouts have WS4 and BS4. They're also an Elite choice.

Yes. And they're a divergent chapter, IE not following the Codex Astartes, and therefor not using C:SM.

I was actually more complaining about my bs 3 scouts, but anyways I think special issue ammo for DA scouts would be very cool. If memory serves havnt their shotguns always been str 4 due to special ammo anyways?

Manstopper shells I believe, yes.

helgrenze wrote:Actually I like the option of having a shotgun use a large flame template. Scatter on a real one depends one the choke setting, mostly.

No choke setting is going to see a shotgun scoring 3 and 4 hits per use, shotguns are not magical tubes of death. That rule proposal is bonkers.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I know their range is only half of what a Storm Bolter gives, but taking into account when playing Scouts, a smart players will generally have them in transports (ie - LS Storm) move them across the field, disembark into Assault range, unload their shots, and then Assault.

Because they can't advance across the field firing as the go - because of the short range of shotguns. Which is why I said the range difference was a big deal.

In this case, I propose the analogy of "Storm Bolters are to Terminators, as Shotguns are to Scouts". When used correctly by each of their respective models, they yield very similar results.

Yeah, that's fair.

his arm is basically destroyed.

and no, your wrong. it'd have to be someone newer.

hmmm. HMMM.

Screaming mat damon.

sebster wrote:shotguns are not magical tubes of death.

THANK YOU. Seriously I don't get why everyone thinks shotguns need to be WTFBBQPWNAGE, they really aren't that great in combat. They have a specialized role for CQC and their rules reflect this. If shotguns were as amazing as everyone here seems to think they should be why are we arming our troops with assault rilfes (autoguns) instead of all shotguns?

shotguns

Because eldar players don't whine enough about bs3 shuriken catapults

SM already have a special round, its called the manstopper round and it gives them the S4 that people complain about. Why would you complain? IG shotguns have only the basic S3. So be happy with your S4!

Even though in the fluff a manstopper round actually adds penetration to the bullet rather than damage (it's effectively an FMJ bullet/slug).

Melissia wrote:Even though in the fluff a manstopper round actually adds penetration to the bullet rather than damage (it's effectively an FMJ bullet/slug).

In Necromunda it had the same strength as a solid slug, but was more accurate. This is 40K, if you're going to demand consistency between the rules and every piece of fluff you're going to make yourself very unhappy. Hell, insisting on consistency between the fluff and other fluff is never going to happen.

how about that +1 to hit that someone(im sorry i cant remeber) suggested? it seems like a decent idea to represent scatter at a short distance without overpowering the shotgun.

Has anyone ever seen a shotgun in action? I have been to the shooting range to shoot some clay. Anyways there was a dirt hill about 150' to 200' away and when I shot at a disk I noticed the birdshot (12 gauge) hitting the hill. I then noticed that when the birdshot hit the hill it made a circle (more like connect the dots that looked like a circle) with a diameter of about 3'. Now I am just putting this up to show that shotguns do not really spread as much as most people think they do. Then again it might have been the birdshot, or the gauge.

Shotguns are fine how they are. Different ammo types, it would fit in with the fluff about SM being a well rounded army but I think it would be OP. How about combi-grenade launcher? As a side note, just for fun I was thinking of making a new SM hero kind of like sergeant Telion but with a shotgun! I have not come up with stats or special rules for him yet but his weapon would be an Enforcer pattern shotgun, Range 12", S4, Ap-, Type assault 4, rending.

Shotguns shoud be realistic. They are made for very close range. I think that, at 6" or less, it should be S5 or count as rending.

It would be OP if every shotgun had rending

Still gotta say I dont think guard shotguns are well thought... I'd feel the stopping power of a shot gun out performs a lasgun. S4 would be a good level for all shotguns. Maybe then I might take them rather then depending on gunlines and roughriders.

wait not all shotguns are S4? The shotguns for the SM are S4.

Shotguns are low tech compared to bolters or lasguns. Even if you assume that 40K shotgun are militarized, i.e. semi automatic with large capacity and shells designed for warfare, the enemy is almost certainly equipped with flak armor or equivalent. Shotguns are easy to manufacture, simple to use, and perfect for shipboard or tight confines like tunnels or ventilation shafts.


Lasguns are cheap and standardized, much simpler to supply ammo for, and better for moderate ranged firefights. Boltguns are expensive and little more tempermental, but they shoot rocket propelled armor piercing small grenades.

Shotguns look great in the movies and cop shows. They are terrific for maximum short range damage on an unarmored body. There are even special shells that do fancy things like slugs and flechette rounds. Most vets and scouts will be packing standard buckshot however, most of the time. Buckshot is 8 or 9 balls roughly the size of a 9mm pistol round. Against a criminal in a convenience store this will splatter him nicely. Against a guardsman with flak armor or a gaunt with a shell, maybe you'll get him, maybe you won't. It still lets a squad run up and thin a few bad guys out before charging in, and that ain't bad. Equating a shotgun to something as nasty as a flamethrower or assault cannon is just silly.

Especially since they're probably using semi-auto shotguns anyway rather than pump shotguns.

Lets them put out more shots.

but auto shotguns or even semi auto ones lack the 'cool' factor of the racking of a pump action shotgun. Even the scouts had ones which look like PAS. Shotgun's max range is what about 60yards - this of course is being thrown to a generation of FPS players where after 2 meters a shotgun looses all power magically. (infact the only game I've played with a decent/realistic type shotgun was the old syphon filter games) Anyway if a *pistol* has range 12 a shotgun should have range 12. When real life space marines come looking for me I'll worry about how real my shotgun is then anyway.

Also GW tighten your rules S4/S3 shotguns? WHICH IS IT?

Given that scouts are themselves apparently larger and stronger than standard humans, it's likely that scouts use bigger shotguns with higher gauge rounds.

Scouts would use lower gauge rounds. When the gauge goes down the size goes up, paradoxially. 12 gauge is pretty standard for human sized soldiers, so I'm guessing marine scouts would use 10 or 8 gauge, though scouts might need to consider how much large gauge ammo they could carry effectively.

Right I forgot, gauge is measured by the weight of a sphere of lead that would match the diameter of the barrel... 12 gauge is 1/12th a pound, and so on.