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^ Something I've considered doing.

Or at the very least bringing a statistics table with me.

If the opponent wants to see it, that's cool with me.

It'd be nigh indecipherable to 90% of the players I play against anyway.

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug... how about the probabilities of stuff and such.
Or a spread sheet of what are actions that are prob. gonna go your way.
Hell maybe it's a flow chart of what actions you will take with certain units based on the opponent.

/shrug. 40K/Fantasy is a pretty transparent game. But stuff like the above is not something that you need to show the opponent because it's information the opponent can find out for themselves with just the army list, codex, and rulebook.

If I had to try this out in a competitive scene I'd have these two lines scribbled on my 'cheat sheet':

Close Combatty the Shooty Things
Shooty the Close Combatty Things

That right there is my new tactica, now and forever.

What was on this contentious bit of paper, anyway? Were any other Dakka posters there that might shed some light on the subject?

I still have no idea what this 'cheat sheet' actually is and what secret information it actually holds. 40k is not that complicated and I can't wrap my brain around what would be written down on a piece of paper which would need to be secret.

I have my broom ready and officially declare shenanigans... There is something we are not being told.

And I suspect that it is 'ok' to show the TO a 'cheat sheet' and he can then make a valid distinction if it is relevant to the opposing user. I still can't understand what this paper contains.

nkelsch wrote:I still have no idea what this 'cheat sheet' actually is and what secret information it actually holds. 40k is not that complicated and I can't wrap my brain around what would be written down on a piece of paper which would need to be secret.

I have my broom ready and officially declare shenanigans... There is something we are not being told.

And I suspect that it is 'ok' to show the TO a 'cheat sheet' and he can then make a valid distinction if it is relevant to the opposing user. I still can't understand what this paper contains.

It's a sheet, with which you cheat.

Duh.

There are a couple weird things going on here.

First off, what exactly was on this "cheat sheet"? The only thing I'd ever consider bringing to a tournament is a list of stuff specific to OTHER armies I'm not used to playing regularly: Faith points and all of the SoB shenanegans, stats and rules for some new Nid stuff, and maybe some rules regarding ICs. This is all readily available stuff, but in a condensed format so you can read it as you play. If the player asks you, "what are you looking at", just say "rules references". That should be good enough, it's not like you're cheating.

Second, the TO isn't *legally* obligated to treat you fairly. That said, you had every right to tell him to F- off and die, pack up your stuff, and ask for a refund because he sounds like a douchebag.

It was dropped by the dice gods, it shows you what die the opponent is gonna roll before they roll it!

Use with caution...."keep it hidden, keep it safe!"

What was in the cheat sheet?

I can imagine various classes of info.

1. Basic tactics which you probably shouldn't enter a tournament without knowing by heart.

2. Notes on your own or other armies, such as the special powers of Tyranid twin boneswords -- the kind of stuff that an old fart like me can't remember and would be a waste of time looking up in the codex.

3. Carefully worked out tables of probabilities for different weapons.

4. A cunning plan which is in truth misdirection, so you refuse to show it to the enemy, then the TO insists, so you do. The enemy believes it, and is taken in by your plan and is easily beaten.

BTW a TO should not make up new rules on the fly. If the tournament info pack didn't ban cheat sheets, he has no moral or legal power to ban them on the day.

Kilkrazy wrote:4. A cunning plan

A cunning plan, you say?

Solon, you create the most bizarre threads I've ever seen on any forum.
I'm genuinely impressed with your ability to constantly surprise me with your wild imagination and extremely confusing topics.

I'm convinced that there is more to this story you aren't telling us. It probably involved you throwing a fit or something... am I in the ballpark?

This is a most amusing thread especially the little story written by Dracos .

Great stuff...
And i want to know what a cheat sheet is!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Solon, you create the most bizarre threads I've ever seen on any forum.
I'm genuinely impressed with your ability to constantly surprise me with your wild imagination and extremely confusing topics.

QFT, I particualry enjoy his proposed rules threads.

OT: Prehaps it was a misunderstanding, you may have said "This is my cheat sheet" to your opponent when he asked what it was. I don't know what a cheat sheet it, and it seems most people here don't either, and my first impresions upon reading the title of the thread was 'Well of course, it's something you cheat with!' but from what I've heard it isn't used for cheating. Basicly, what I'm trying to say is that your opponent may not have known what a cheat sheet is, nor the TO, and when they heard about it they asked to see it to see if it really was a item used for cheating, then when you said no, the TO had to kick you out for cheating even if you wern't. It's really just the way it sounds.

Edit: quote BB-code fail.

Kilkrazy wrote:4. A cunning plan which is in truth misdirection, so you refuse to show it to the enemy, then the TO insists, so you do. The enemy believes it, and is taken in by your plan and is easily beaten.

Yep. This is about as good as it could have been, and if anyone had a problem with it because you brought notes which they HAD to see to play the game, they shouldn't have asked to see the notes. Hilarious.

Sometimes I will take notes about gear and such, perhaps a quick game-plan or two sketched out short-hand. I don't care if my opponent sees it as they would gain nothing by doing so. If my plan was so fragile as to be impacted negatively by my opponent seeing it, lacking any means to change your plan, probably means that it was a pretty bad idea in the first place. Not to say that it would always be fair to share absolutely everything, especially when there was no rule given before the tourney started.

Next time bring a 'playbook' and stick the only plan that you are not going to use at all on top of the clipboard. Make sure your opponent sees it, the worst that could happen is they ignore it and it doesn't matter if they do. I would say that a player asking to rummage through your notes is indicative of an attempt to waste time. Combine that with moving a swarm army and you have taken more than 2/3 of the game-time on purpose. That is cheating, where notes are not. I have never understood the term 'cheat sheet', if it is allowed in any form it is not cheating, and can be considered no less than notes.

I don't know of many TO's that would disallow any writing during a tournament as it would put many players at a noticeable disadvantage. Ever played an army with 10 different squads all with completely different gear? Yeah, you should probably write down what is what, and your opponent should be required to quickly clarify when needed. The main reason why WYSIWYG is a pretty good idea, if not a difficult rule to implement fairly.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Solon, you create the most bizarre threads I've ever seen on any forum.
I'm genuinely impressed with your ability to constantly surprise me with your wild imagination and extremely confusing topics.

I'm convinced that there is more to this story you aren't telling us. It probably involved you throwing a fit or something... am I in the ballpark?

It'd be rather nice if he responded again to a number of these threads too.

Well, Yeah, pretty much caught on. it's basically tactics and such. it's a new army [I was bored of a basic C:SM army] It's semi-gunline and semi-close assault, it works well. but I've only just figured out some very good tactics, and I've not memorised them

as for the "I'm hiding something" or not telling, What the feth, I mean seriously.

CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

How to use rules in conjunction so that squads doesn't miss out on juicy rules, so I won't forget them [such as the chaplains re-roll failed to hits in combat.]

Good ways to deal with particularily difficult enemies. [Tyrnid 'gons' and 'fexes' spring to mind.]

I wasn't doing a big competition, it was 1000 points. hell, half the armies weren't painted.

Captain Solon wrote:

CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

How to use rules in conjunction so that squads doesn't miss out on juicy rules, so I won't forget them [such as the chaplains re-roll failed to hits in combat.]

Good ways to deal with particularily difficult enemies. [Tyrnid 'gons' and 'fexes' spring to mind.]

If thats what you had on it, why would you care if the opponent saw it? Seems like you had a pointless argument and got kicked out of a tourney because of it.

The reason people are inclined to believe that there is more to the story is because the actions you describe the TO as taking make no sense. You are saying that he essential kicked you out of the tourny because you wrote down some thoughts about how to deal with enemies and some probabilities of success on a piece of paper you brought with you.

It just seems really strange if that is all that was going on : /

*shrug*

Captain Solon wrote:
as for the "I'm hiding something" or not telling, What the feth, I mean seriously.

Your short time on Dakka has been characterised with strange, unintelligible comments. Your clarification is appreciated but absolutely out of the norm for you.

TO sounds like a tool, unless you refused to show the 'cheatsheet' to someone. If you're hiding things and making a scene about it, then you ought to be made an example of. If you're in someone's store and they ask you what's on a piece of paper, they Reserve the Right. It's not a question of "do I have to show my opponent," it's a matter of respecting your peers.

Captain Solon wrote:CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

How to use rules in conjunction so that squads doesn't miss out on juicy rules, so I won't forget them [such as the chaplains re-roll failed to hits in combat.]

Good ways to deal with particularily difficult enemies. [Tyrnid 'gons' and 'fexes' spring to mind.]

My question is simple:If that's what was on your paper why not show it?

I've no problem showing a TO. Thats his Gw-given right.

But I do have a problem having to show an opponent. if I have strategy to get rid of one of his units, he sees this, don't you think he's going to avoid it now?

To put this into perspective of real military terms, This would be like going in a C-130 and Dropping copys and Schmatics of Every single Weapon and Tactic into Afganastain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

poipo32 wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

How to use rules in conjunction so that squads doesn't miss out on juicy rules, so I won't forget them [such as the chaplains re-roll failed to hits in combat.]

Good ways to deal with particularily difficult enemies. [Tyrnid 'gons' and 'fexes' spring to mind.]

My question is simple:If that's what was on your paper why not show it?

What I think the OP means is his Battleplan, Formations, tactics, etc. Not a Refrence Sheet.

Not a good example at all, given that the schematics for everything ARE available to everyone already.

Do you not think the opponent, if they are at all competent, is already aware of things such as rerolls to hit?

My take is that a TO can ask to see any papers you are referring to during a game. However, obviously there is a slippery slope here between "let me see that paper" to "let me see everything in your wallet" to "take off your pants". His right to see what you don't want to show is balanced by your right to leave the tourney at any time. Whatever the consensus on Dakka here is about how reasonable it was is amusing but not relevant either to this or future situations of this nature.

If there were sponsors, complain to them. If there were no sponsors, hitch up your big boy pants and either choose to stay and value your tourney over your privacy.... or don't, and choose to leave.

Captain Solon wrote:I've no problem showing a TO. Thats his Gw-given right.

But I do have a problem having to show an opponent. if I have strategy to get rid of one of his units, he sees this, don't you think he's going to avoid it now?

I'm not sure what that, has to do with this...

CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

Bring too much information for your opponent to go through next time. If they want to see what you are looking at, they can look through the binder on their turn... the binder with 200 pages, much of it pictures of lolcats.

Pictures of lolcats that you decode with your decoder ring. That would be bad-ass.

Seriously though, I don't see why you had a problem with your opponent seeing and I don't know why the TO would care so much if they did anyway. I don't buy the authori-tah argument, they should have clarified before the tournament started, instead of flexing later. Much like headcat, who can be found on page 82 of your notes.

He doesn't flex very much...

Is it possible that the 'cheatsheet' could be confused with, say, a duplicate army list or another equally nefarious item?

I doubt it.

The only way we'd really find out would be to ring up the Mt. Gravatt and Chermside GW stores and ask about a 14 year old kid with a blue/red Space Marine army who narrates incessantly, calls his HQ 'Captain Solon' and find out why he had to be kicked out of the store. Pretend you're a parent or something.

Lol. I call my HQ Vaerra. [I don't carry a captain. they're not juicy enough]

I don't narrate in tournaments.

CHEATSHEET = Averages for different weapons, so I don't have to think about it.

How to use rules in conjunction so that squads doesn't miss out on juicy rules, so I won't forget them [such as the chaplains re-roll failed to hits in combat.]

Good ways to deal with particularily difficult enemies. [Tyrnid 'gons' and 'fexes' spring to mind.]

I think it's completely understandable to make some notes on how to play an army they really haven't gotten familiar with. Likewise I think that if I had a set of notes that contained info along the lines of "If my opponent has unit X, then use unit Y and Z to do this) I'd be pretty pissed if the TO forced me to show that to my opponent, as they now know exactly how I intend to use those two units. I'd have no problems letting the TO look at it all he wants, but forcing me to show it to the other player is pretty rediculous. That being said, as others have pointed out, it's the TO's show, and there is not much you can do about it other than leave or suck it up and deal with it.

I very much doubt it was "tactics" it was probably some mathammer numbers to try and make his army efficient without doing basic math in his head.

//edit, called it! XD

and you should probably not need them and just play the game, if your being a dick by not letting your opponent see your math sheet because you are too stupid/lazy to do it in your head, you deserve what you get.

NUU MAH MATH SHEET! GET YUR OWN

Scott-S6 wrote:Poor decision on the TO's part, I'd say. Based on what we'e been told...

Why should you have to show your opponent a piece of paper that you're not required to have?

Because the TO wanted his friend to win the match...

Lame.