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Oh please, what can a GK Land Raider Redeemer auto-kill (meaning: no saves of any kind) that a "basic" SM Land Raider Redeemer can't?

HOORAY FOR FORGE WORLD FOR GETTING MORE BADASS GK MODELS

Ain't she a beauty?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Daemonhunters_/GREY-KNIGHTS-LAND-RAIDER-REDEEMER-COMPLETE-KIT.html

Seer Council, lawl.

Psycannons and Incinerators already did that, no?

Just put a GK squad with 2 Incinerators in a LR, move 12", disembark in front of Seer Council and watch it BURN!

Then charge and Instant Death the survivors with your Strength 6!

Not to the Jetbike Council.
Flamestorms are importantly AP3, unlike the AP4 Psycannon/Incinerators, IIRC.

Incinerators and Psycannons are AP 4, you are correct.

Jetbike gives a 3+ save? Whoops, forgot about that small detail, my mistake.

But then again, out of all the death star units, it's only one of them and Eldar still have ways to take on GK.


At least I suppose so, I don't really know much about them...

Eldar Jet bikes, for some infinitly odd reason, give the rider a 3+ armor save.

Jetbike Council has 3+/4++.
Another target would be Thunderwolves with Stormshields, Command Squad with Stormshields, and the like.

All shall burn in the fires of Purgatory

Grey(Silver?) is the new

More units than I first though, thank you for correcting me.


But I think it's not such an overpowered or crazy unit.

It's still 270 pts of a short range flame-throwing tank without any upgrades.


I bet it must be REALLY fun the first time you tell your opponent that his shiny Command Squad doesn't get saves of any kind!

GK Land Raider Redeemer ---> the new fire magnet! For once GK get a (midly) cheese unit!!!

You will get FNP against the Flamestorm cannon!

it's only AP3 and no ID.

Nemesis
Anything not in terminator armor will die.... used to be if you had an invulnerable save there really wasnt anything to take it away. c'tan phase weapons, there used to be a demon weapon that did it, I think necrons have a unit that does it though it pretty much blows so no one takes it.... I just think it's bad to start re-introducing that element into the game. On a flamer template no less. You should at least have to roll to hit with the frikkin thing. We'll see what it ends up costing..... it's more then next 4 codices afterwards that concerns me.

Redeemer: Str 6 Ap 3 Flamer (yeah but it's 240 points)
Banewolf: Poison 2+ AP 3 Flamer AND fast (yeah but it's guard, they need something short ranged)
Baal: Str 6 Ap 3 AND fast AND Scouts (yeah but it's blood angels, that's what they do!)
GK Redeemer: Str 6 AP 3 AND deep strikes AND ignores invulnerable saves (yeah but it's grey knights they're supposed to be awesome!)

you see the progression here? Once space marines got it the genie was out of the bottle. Now everyone wants it and it keeps getting worse.

Or here's another....
Autarch: +1 to my reserve rolls (yeah but he has no psychic powers and eldar rely on those, so it's balanced)
Tigerius: Reroll IF you want (yeah but it's on a character that costs 200+ points, so it's balanced)
Officer of the Fleet/Astropath: +1 to my reserve rolls AND reroll outlfank AND -1 to your reserve rolls (yeah but it's guard we're supposed to be awesome!)
Tyranids: +1 to my reserve rolls on a character who is awesome anyway
Blood Angels: Reroll reserves AND d6 scatter AND I get it for free (because blood angels are awesome)

The powers keep getting better and the rationale keeps getting weaker. I think they're messing with something that doesn't need to be messed with in both cases. Baal predators, Banewolves, Astropaths/Officers of the Fleet and Descent of Angels are all rules that should not exist because the only thing that balances them out is each other. Against an opponent who doesn't have access to one or the other they're devestating. Grey Knights will probably see a continuation of the trend in both areas. I just think they're headed down the wrong road here. The guard codex came pretty close to breaking the game IMO. A small push (like making guard 3 points a piece) would have finished the job. And the way they've chosen to handle it..... ugh.
AF

I agree that we are getting more powerful stuff for less points but it's not necessarily a bad thing if everyone has them, in a word if it's balanced.

I suppose it's also part of their business strategy:
-if it costs less than you have to buy more to keep playing at the same points level
-it's powerful, but new, so if you want to stay ahead of the rest you need to buy it too

I completely agree that Land Raider can be devastating in the right (wrong?) hands but then again I believe anything can be powerful if used correctly.
Of course some units are easier to use correctly than others, that's where our balance problem lies I suppose.


On a side note, you talk about the Banewolf but I've never actually seen one in action (syndrome of the "powerful-but-hard-to-use-correctly?"), be it at a FLGS or in an internet Battle Report. If you happen to know one I'd much like to read it!


Oh, and as for the other units/weapons that ignore armor and invulnerable saves you mean the Callidus Assassin (C'Tan Phase Blade), the Necron Lord (may take a C'Tan Phase Blade) and the C'Tan; as for that daemon weapon I don't know anything about it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well templar... he *should* think twice... they *do* suck... but if he thinks twice and for whatever reason he still wants to run them, then whose going to stop him?

No, they dont suck. It appears that *you* just suck at using them. Are they great? No. Are they good? Not really. Can you win with them? A lot. Learn how to properly use them and they are solid. They are not a forgiving army and mistakes are amplified, but someones lack of skill at playing an army does not make it bad.

I will tell you know Inigo Montoya, it will not get through to AF...

Protip: save your finger muscles

M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:On a side note, you talk about the Banewolf but I've never actually seen one in action (syndrome of the "powerful-but-hard-to-use-correctly?"), be it at a FLGS or in an internet Battle Report. If you happen to know one I'd much like to read it!

They can be pretty nasty when paired with... CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

If he plays Grey Knights than Inigo Montoya is used to fight an uphill battle Sanctjud!

Wish him luck!

M'Kach
yeah... if everyone got good capabilities for about the same costs it would be fine.... alot of times this game verges on rock paper scissors. a/w the Banewolf is pretty good I think the reason people don't use it is that it isn't very strong offensively, in the sense that you don't run up to their lines and start baking them with it; you leave it in reserve or off to the side and when the enemy gets in your face you just roll out with it and wreck the infantry unit of your choice. Also the sanctioned psyker squad competes with the banewolf for the role of assault insurance and is probably stronger at it all things considered. It's still a stupid good tank. In any other codex you'd see it all the time, it's just that the book is so insanely awesome that even the mighty banewolf gets left out of the final cut.

The chaos weapon was the dread axe... you gave it to a demon prince, who was a monstrous creature, and your opponent never got any kind of save whatever from his attacks. Pretty silly.
AF

Well, I would say something about the Dread Axe, but that was the pervious Chaos Dex, so in the grand scope of things it's not up-to-date and not supposed to be 'in the norm.'

I too would use the Banewolf for counter-attack, like the rough riders, not general offensive; but that would only be according to my style of play, not some kind of dogma (not that I have enough influence to impose one ).

In any other codex you'd see it all the time, it's just that the book is so insanely awesome that even the mighty banewolf gets left out of the final cut.

So the Banewolf is overshadowed by the other units in the codex? Well, if the Banewolf is himself over-abusive then why don't you complain about the units that are even worse than him?
I don't know about you guys, but there's something in his logic that disturbs me here...

One last thing: you previously said that in the good old days, when you had an invulnerable, few things could take it away from you.
But that's precisely where lies your problem: in the good old days.

Back in the time, only HQs and a few units had invulnerable or at least very limited ones (think old edition storm shields).
Whereas now, much more assault troopers can have a 3++ (even better than your Iron Halo!)

I find it logical that if you increase the number of invulnerables, than you have to increase the methods to counter them.

Nemesis:
you said: Well, if the Banewolf is himself over-abusive then why don't you complain about the units that are even worse than him?

Because the banewolf was a part of my argument about template weapons getting stronger and stronger... through a progression of the last year's codex releases and why the trend was moving in the wrong direction. Scroll up to confirm. Sanctioned Psykers are another subject and they are indeed an extremely abusive unit.

I agree invulnerable saves tended to be lighter back "in the good old days." For a long time the unwritten rule was "you never get better than a 4++" and you can see that in every codex up to the last edition of the Chaos Codex. Things started to change with space marines. The only exception I can think of right off the top of my head is Sisters of Battle faith power that lets you turn your saves invulnerable, but there are alot of restrictions on when you can use it and sisters are pretty crappy when they aren't flaming things. Still it's stupid good on them. Anyway now that they broke that rule, which was a mistake, they are trying to fix it by introducing weapons that ignore invulnerable saves, which is a 2nd mistake. What they ought to have done was stick with the 1st rule, or, when they realized it was creating play imbalances to break it, gone back and edited the old codex to remove that mistake, not try to cover it over with another one. Chaos Codex 3.5 Necrons and Demon Hunters all came out about the same time and all had ways to get rid of invulnerable saves. Then they just stopped writing wargear that did that because they realized they were going down the wrong track. Hopefully we'll see a repeat here. If you have an invulnerable save you should always get it, no exceptions. It represents the miraculous. For that same reason an invulnerable save should never be better than 4++.

AF

My bad, I must have missed the part on template weapons.

As for "precendently" (I saw it before you edited it!), you're also right, I mixed up french and english. It happens to me from time to time, please excuse me about that as english isn't my mother language.

I don't really feel that breaking this tacit rule was a mistake in particular but I also must admit that I haven't faced many such troops equipped with this kind of gear.
Could you please developp as to why it's a mistake?

On a side note, this thread has gone way off from what the OP wished; I wonder where he has gone off to by the way?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Nemesis:
you said: Well, if the Banewolf is himself over-abusive then why don't you complain about the units that are even worse than him?

Because the banewolf was a part of my argument about template weapons getting stronger and stronger... through a progression of the last year's codex releases and why the trend was moving in the wrong direction. Scroll up to confirm. Sanctioned Psykers are another subject and they are indeed an extremely abusive unit.

I agree invulnerable saves tended to be lighter back "in the good old days." For a long time the unwritten rule was "you never get better than a 4++" and you can see that in every codex up to the last edition of the Chaos Codex. Things started to change with space marines. The only exception I can think of right off the top of my head is Sisters of Battle faith power that lets you turn your saves invulnerable, but there are alot of restrictions on when you can use it and sisters are pretty crappy when they aren't flaming things. Still it's stupid good on them. Anyway now that they broke that rule, which was a mistake, they are trying to fix it by introducing weapons that ignore invulnerable saves, which is a 2nd mistake. What they ought to have done was stick with the 1st rule, or, when they realized it was creating play imbalances to break it, gone back and edited the old codex to remove that mistake, not try to cover it over with another one. Chaos Codex 3.5 Necrons and Demon Hunters all came out about the same time and all had ways to get rid of invulnerable saves. Then they just stopped writing wargear that did that because they realized they were going down the wrong track. Hopefully we'll see a repeat here. If you have an invulnerable save you should always get it, no exceptions. It represents the miraculous. For that same reason an invulnerable save should never be better than 4++.

AF

Wraiths had a 3++, and Archons had a 2++ until they fail one. Just to be contrary.


With the prevalence of really good Invulnerable saves I think it's a good thing to have a new nasty thing that's going to shake up the metagame.

With the prevalence of really good Invulnerable saves I think it's a good thing to have a new nasty thing that's going to shake up the metagame.[quote/]

I agree with you but AF's point is that they shouldn't have added so much invulnerable saves protected units in the first place.

Nemesis
you said: As for "precendently" (I saw it before you edited it!), you're also right, I mixed up french and english. It happens to me from time to time, please excuse me about that as english isn't my mother language.

Yeah I took it out because I realized english might not be your first language and it was rude anyway. please disregard.

Yeah we're a little off topic but whatever.... lol. I think it's a bad idea to give really good invulnerable saves out because it creates impossible situations for your opponent and because it encourages bad play. For instance if you get charged by ghazkull he has a special rule that gives him a 2++. There's nothing you can do. You just die. That encourages Ork players to play like retards (I take ghazkull every time, I point him at my opponent's best thing, it dies, I win.) and space marine players to give up (game is broken think I'll go play magic) heavily modify their list (if I don't take this 1 thing ghazkull will whoop me every time) or whine for something just as good in their next book (hey I want a 2++ on MY guys) or, worse, respond by creating an impossible situation for the *ork* player (ghazkull may have a 2++ and be unstoppable on the charge, but I switched from marines to guard and I now have 20 twin linked lascannons. I'll shoot down his ride and he'll never get into close combat. Now I can play like a slow and win hooray!)

When GW went into 3rd they said: "we think 2nd was broken. It was all about smashing your opponent with special rules that they couldnt do anything about. We're going to encoruage tactical play by toning down everyone's stat lines so this will be a game of strategy not a game of 'whose got the best special rule'." They stuck to that for a while, and while the game wasn't nearly as aggressive or fast paced then as it is now, no one could complain that the opponent's codex didn't even give them a chance. Going into 5th the attitude appears to be "if you can't deal with a guy with a broken stat line it's not our problem. Figure it out." Fair enough, but now people with older codices can hardly even play their army (at least competitively) and every new codex is more jam packed than ever with stupid good units at bargain basement prices because their authors are saying "hey, this may be the only book my guys get for 5 years, so I'd better make it good." Thats why you see people with chaos space marine or dark angels figs say "screw this I'm tired of losing. I'm blood angels now." They're right. The Blood Angels book is so massively overpowered compared to the Dark Angels book that the only alternative is to just not use your models. Once things get serious it's an auto lose.

I just think it's dumb. This game should be about the tactical decisions you make after you deploy, not about the units you take before the game starts. Right now half the game is won or lost before you even deploy, and more than half the skill is being able to correctly identify units as gold, meh, or crap before spending any money or rolling any dice. A good portion of what's left is knowing enough of the rules to not get ambushed and surprised by obscure stuff in their book or what general strategy and quirks each army has. If you know those things the rest of the game boils down to common sense decisions (I shoot terminators with plasmacannons before tacticals, I stick my guardsmen in cover whenever possible, I flame thrower orks but not tyrant guard etc)

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster
yeah Archons had a 2++ that's right.... thanks for reminding me... what's a wraith?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS
alot of people say "there's no good or bad units its just what you do with them." There most definitely are good and bad units that's why you see the same 5 units over and over again in competitive tournament lists. For instance space wolves run Grey Hunters and Thunderwolves not Blood Claws and Lone Wolves, Blood Angels run Assault Marines not Tacticals, Normal Space Marines run Vulkan not Cato. People who say there aren't good and bad units either don't have the experience to tell the difference or are refusing to think.
AF

Lets get back on topic with more useful advice?
The OP has bought his army...it's DH's. So lets assume he's not gonna jump on a bandwagon (not hard to assume really). Working with what he has, lests brainstorm.

The game is not only about list building with access to everything in the 40K range. Tactics also involves working with what we have at the moment. Things can still be competitive without needing "I'm gonna rape you here and now" sort of lists.

_______

As for advice, I suggest these (a bit dated, but the concepts are still sound):

Way of the Water Warrior:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214&hl=water+warrior

Bat reps for the Water Warrior:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=d51a95097655add3205dfa3479632cf3&showtopic=106015

General Reading:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=92fb58e5a11b1be5a3de7d15bf268045&showtopic=124179


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for AF's last point...I'm not gonna bite, it's just too tiresome.

There needs to be 100% compliance with the rules of this site in this very thread.

Right now.