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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




More expensive wounding on 2+ (against MEQ) heavy bolters

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Numberless Necron Warrior




there's a little flag next to my username, in case u didn't know.

okay, to try and settle this dispute, I have gathered all three of the aformentioned codices with me right now. (yes, all three current versions...they're not all mine, though) The daemonhunters codex does not, in fact, state what units are daemons and what are not. (at least I can't find it anywhere) As all the daemon-specific weapons in the daemonhunter codex state that only 'against daemons' are the special affects applicable, RaI wound comply that all units with the 'daemon' special rule count as daemons, which the CSM dp does not have. The fact that the CSM dp has the word 'daemon' in it's name does not mean he is a daemon. If that was the case, you might as well count almost every single unit in the Daemonhunter codex as a 'daemon'. As there is no RaW that states weather or not the CSM dp is a daemon, you should not count a CSM dp as affected by any 'daemon' specific effects from the daemonhunter codex or any other codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. all of the talk about it not stated 'what is considered daemon and what isn't' is because after double and triple checking the daemonhunter codex, the CSM codex, the chaos daemons codex and the 40k rulebook I simply cannot find where it is stated which units are daemon and which are not.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/08/30 13:50:56



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes, the DH codex DOES - there is a foot note that explains, for this codex, exactly what "Daemon" means. It includes such gems as Chaos lords with above 50 poitns of daemonic gifts (or daemonic stature), nurglings, and so on.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Page 20 bottom right of the DH codex defines "Daemon".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/30 14:01:11


 
   
Made in gb
Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter





UK

Chaos marine demon princes were chaos lords who had been blessed with demonic gifts, so not actual demons. in the new codex somehow this has made them weak and easy to kill, the gifts of the chaos gods suck just stick to bieng a renegade.

joker8911  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





joker8911 wrote:Chaos marine demon princes were chaos lords who had been blessed with demonic gifts, so not actual demons. in the new codex somehow this has made them weak and easy to kill, the gifts of the chaos gods suck just stick to bieng a renegade.
I was going to reiterate this as well, but that's a flavor argument only. I cite Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2002) p. 42. - "Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines are further exceptions as they are essentially [chaos space marines] with daemonic abilities." to back this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regardless of the above, I'd still argue that in order for it to count as a Daemon, it needs to have the Daemon special rule, which is convenient enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 03:03:44








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MekanobSamael wrote: I cite Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2002) p. 42. - "Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines are further exceptions as they are essentially [chaos space marines] with daemonic abilities." to back this up.


Sorry, are you quoting that as proof that they are, or are not Daemons?

 
   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick




Champaign, IL

MekanobSamael wrote:Regardless of the above, I'd still argue that in order for it to count as a Daemon, it needs to have the Daemon special rule, which is convenient enough.


It would be nice if 40k had universal classifications like this, but sadly they don't, unless they're USRs. Hopefully, at some point in the future, the Daemon special rule can be acknowledged as either the de facto definition, or at least one of multiple definitions included for DHs. For now, though, the Daemon rule only applies to its own Codex.

If only someone we know and trust, maybe someone who put together a well thought-out FAQ, ::coughYakfacecough:: could take an impartial look at the 4th edition context and rules. Then maybe it would be possible to extrapolate how to get the "what counts as a daemon" question, as well as the Daemonic Infestation rule, should be treated in 5th. At least some people could be happy, for a few months. . . before none of it matters anymore. Hell, I'd do it, but I don't have all of the Codices involved, and nobody would listen.

Look at your comment. Back to mine. Back to yours NOW BACK TO MINE. Sadly, it isn't mine. But if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate crap it could LOOK like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through comments, finding the ones that your comment could look like. Back at mine, what is it? It's a highly effective counter-troll. Look again, MY COMMENT IS NOW DIAMONDS.

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Made in hk
Numberless Necron Warrior




there's a little flag next to my username, in case u didn't know.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Page 20 bottom right of the DH codex defines "Daemon".


I'm sorry, but I just can't find it. Is the version of the DH codex you guys are using the one downloaded off gw.com? other than the download I can't find the codex anywhere else, and I can't find the footnote on page 20, PDF sidebar numbering and the page number on the actual document. A photo of the footnote, perhaps?
   
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







some random necron guy wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:Page 20 bottom right of the DH codex defines "Daemon".


I'm sorry, but I just can't find it. Is the version of the DH codex you guys are using the one downloaded off gw.com? other than the download I can't find the codex anywhere else, and I can't find the footnote on page 20, PDF sidebar numbering and the page number on the actual document. A photo of the footnote, perhaps?
Look for the page called "Dæmonhunters Army List".
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Random Necron Guy; the Downloaded Codex has the "what constitutes a Daemon only in the Daemonic Infestation Rules on Page 3. the Paper Codex has it on Page 20.

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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
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Crazed Cultist of Khorne





England, Ashbourne

I thought all deamons can deep strike and assault?

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, not even close.

Lesser daemons, from Chaos Marine, can be summoned and assault thatr turn, but it isnt deepstrike.

Codex: Daemons daemons HAVE to deepstrike, but cannot assault the turn they do so - as normal.

Lastly the Avatar is a Daemon yet cannot ever deepstrike (in a normal game of 40k)
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






I'm going to repeat my post from the last time this topic came up:

The Daemonhunters codex offers some guidelines on this: "Throughout this Codex, the term "Daemon" refers to the following units: All Daemonhosts, Greater Daemons and Daemon packs, Daemon Beasts, Nurglings, Daemonically Possessed Vehicles such as Defilers) or those with the Parasitic Possession, Living Vehicle or Mutated Hull upgrades, Eldar Avatars, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, and Chaos Lords with the Daemonic Stature gift and/or over 50 points of daemonic gifts."

Unfortunately, this is so out of date to be virtually worthless from a RAW perspective, the vast majority of these things no longer exist. However, we can extrapolate from the units it referred to when it was written.

Codex Chaos Daemons units
Summoned Greater Daemons
Summoned Lesser Daemons
Defilers
Vehicles with Daemonic Possession
Avatar
Possessed Chaos Space Marines
Daemon Prince

That would be my suggestion for a house rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:
some random necron guy wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:Page 20 bottom right of the DH codex defines "Daemon".


I'm sorry, but I just can't find it. Is the version of the DH codex you guys are using the one downloaded off gw.com? other than the download I can't find the codex anywhere else, and I can't find the footnote on page 20, PDF sidebar numbering and the page number on the actual document. A photo of the footnote, perhaps?
Look for the page called "Dæmonhunters Army List".


P20 of the print codex, it's absent from the PDF.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 11:44:44


 
   
Made in hk
Numberless Necron Warrior




there's a little flag next to my username, in case u didn't know.

Scott-S6 wrote:P20 of the print codex, it's absent from the PDF.


ah, I see. They didn't have the printed one in stock at my FLGS, so I couldn't reference to it.


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior






As far as I'm concerned, it counts as a daemon RAW be damned. It looks like a daemon, it has daemon in its name, its chaos-tainted, its a daemon.

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then its a duck.

Just my standpoint.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ruled over by a chaos lord...oh wait, it isnt a daemon. It IS part daemon, but then by that distinction a lord with Daemon weapon is a daemon....
   
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New Jersey

RAW they aren't but if someone told me my DAEMON prince was not a DAEMON I'd probably just get up and leave. Sometimes you gotta just house rule weird stuff.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




So is your fire DRAGON a DRAGON as well then?

This has been covered. A name is not indicative.
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





So is your fire DRAGON a DRAGON as well then?

This has been covered. A name is not indicative.


Are Fire Dragons described as Dragons anywhere in the rules? No but the Daemon Prince is. I really don't see how anyone could say a Daemon Prince isn't a Daemon, RaW or otherwise.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




He is described as a mortal elevated to daemonhood, but still the mortal within the body. Therefore part daemon. So not a Daemon. Making you wrong (again)

A daemon prince is not a daemon in toto. You dont have to be a human to be a human prince.
   
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







FlingitNow wrote:
So is your fire DRAGON a DRAGON as well then?

This has been covered. A name is not indicative.
Are Fire Dragons described as Dragons anywhere in the rules? No but the Daemon Prince is. I really don't see how anyone could say a Daemon Prince isn't a Daemon, RaW or otherwise.
RaW he is not on the Dæmonhunters list, nor any Space Wolf list, so therefore is not a Dæmon for the purposes of those rules, RaW.

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Lord of the Fleet






When the DH codex was written there was no "Daemon Prince" unit. A Daemon Prince was covered under "Chaos Lords with the Daemonic Stature gift and/or over 50 points of daemonic gifts"

It's not RAW, but to consider a Daemon Prince a daemon is a very reasonable house rule. This is one of those pretty clear cases of edition slip - something that used to work and still ought to work but has been broken due to not being updated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/01 13:46:55


 
   
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot






I agree with the above.

Its not RAW, but.... its just taking RAW too far to not consider a Daemon Prince a Daemon.

Personally, i'd never deny a Daemonhunter's player their bonuses against a Daemon Prince.

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Louisville, KY

This topic again?

Augh.

Look, it's perfectly simple.

If it doesn't have the "Daemon" special rule, it is not a Daemon in the context of rules that affect "Daemons" without immediately defining what constitutes a "Daemon."

Furthermore, if it's in the Daemonhunters codex, defined as a model against which Daemonhunter-specific weapons that have specific effects against Daemons, it's a Daemon in that context only.

Any definition beyond those two is a house rule.

Now, is a house rule that calls a Daemon Prince a Daemon unreasonable? No, of course not. In my own games, I play my Daemon Prince (in the context of Codex: Chaos Daemons) as a Daemon when up against a DH or SW player. But it's exactly that: a house rule.

It may have something to do with the fact that our only SW player is a 12-year-old kid who might break down in tears if I tell him his Runic Staff can't wound my Daemon Prince on a 2+.

Because plastic soldiers are not worth having to deal with that crap, ever.

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Id love to vindicare one in the face on turn 1 and watch 25% of the firewarriors run of the board, thatd be awesome.


Sorry what? Have you read those rules? They don't state they effect things with the Daemon special rule they state they effect daemons. ANYTHING described in their own codex as a Daemon will be effected RaW (not for DH as they have a specific if outdated list, that you could logically rule RaI on, note this is not a house rule, in this case following the RaW would actually be a house rule).

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Interesting misquote there.

You are stating that "RAW" anything which is described in background text as a daemon is a daemon?

You just get funnier.
   
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Man. . .if someone told me daemonhunters were not daemons, I would be . . . I mean, look at their NAME!

More seriously. . .even from its own codex, daemonhosts are not counted as daemons. Despite the name. And the rules for them. An most especially, despite the fluff.

/boggle

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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





You are stating that "RAW" anything which is described in background text as a daemon is a daemon?


Sorry I wasn't aware of any section in any codex that says which bits are rules and which bits aren't. If in the codex a model is described as a Daemon anywhere that is RaW they are a Daemon.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







nosferatu1001 wrote:Interesting misquote there.

You are stating that "RAW" anything which is described in background text as a daemon is a daemon?

You just get funnier.
This does mean I get to wound St. Celestene and the Sangunior on a 2+ with my Njal now, so all is good with the world.

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