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Guitardian wrote:No, debt is not an inherently bad thing.
Unnecessary luxury debt is a bad thing. Debt moves an economy, loans make it possible for money to move. The thing that caused the current financial headache is debt for living beyond means, not paid back, trickling up the ladder.

Again correct. You have now unlocked...Old School Cylons

dogma wrote:Why?

You're doing a great job explaining the process behind going into debt, but not doing a great job explaining why that should be avoided. For example, my education is not something I was able to finance on my own, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to earn what I did without it. Why should I have avoided going into debt in order to pay for my education?

You sure could make as much money without your education, assuming you're not some uber rich guy. Become a pipefitter or welder and make 100k for 6months work in the oilsands of Alberta.

Apparently our banks are starting to take more risks now and we might not be as well if there was another meltdown.

Maybe he didn't want to be a pipefitter.

it would be nicer if they just didnt let people do it. I don't think buy-happy consumers will think twice about saying "oh no that's fine I'll put the money back" when standing in line in public.

Guitardian wrote:
That's an investment, not just a frivolously spent loan.

Building a nice house is also an investment.

Guitardian wrote:
How many college students rack up student loans though who don't get great jobs out of it and end up paying back their student loans working as a dishwasher at Dennys or at a Jiffy Lube (just the two friends of mine that come to mind) or (like my GF, file bankruptcy and getting collection agents calling every other day)? It would be nice if having a degree guaranteed you a job right out of school, but sadly, a BA degree has about as much clout as a GED.

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. BAs are plainly worth more than GEDs, as I'm sure anyone who has tried to compete with a BA on grounds of GED possession will tell you.

I think there is some merit to the idea that many employers demand too many qualifications from their employees. For example, I never hired anyone that didn't have a college degree (owner's policy), and washing towels was certainly not the sort of work that required an education.


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BrockRitcey wrote:
You sure could make as much money without your education, assuming you're not some uber rich guy. Become a pipefitter or welder and make 100k for 6months work in the oilsands of Alberta.

Apparently our banks are starting to take more risks now and we might not be as well if there was another meltdown.

If I seek employment as a pipe fitter, then I will be limited to fitting pipes and most likely constrained by union dues. With my education I can find work as a statistician, political science analyst, community college professor, personal trainer, gym manager, financial analyst, etc. All of these positions enable me to earn more than 100k a year, with a substantially lighter work load than a pipe fitter.

That was 100k in half a year. the other half you take off. And that is assuming you don't work crazy hours. If you wanted to do 12 or 16 hour days you could make much more. Also from pipefitting you could get a welding ticket or even move over to a millwright which is a significantly lighter workload, although judging from the millwrights I've met you would spend all your cash on food and jump up to 300 pounds. Also you would be surprised at how easy the work is.


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The only real downside to that work is you are in the oilsands in northern alberta. So you either have to live there or not mind flying. Which would be inconvenient if you live to far down in the states.

dogma wrote:
If I seek employment as a pipe fitter, then I will be limited to fitting pipes and most likely constrained by union dues. With my education I can find work as a statistician, political science analyst, community college professor, personal trainer, gym manager, financial analyst, etc. All of these positions enable me to earn more than 100k a year, with a substantially lighter work load than a pipe fitter.

Only at an entry level position. After 3-5 years you're pegged until your next voluntary/involuntary career change, at a substantially reduced salary. If you can get hired of course.

I make more money now, as a graduate fellow, than I did as a gym manager; once all perks are considered (tuition waiver being the key item). Career changes don't negatively impact your earning potential if you do it correctly.


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BrockRitcey wrote:That was 100k in half a year. the other half you take off. And that is assuming you don't work crazy hours. If you wanted to do 12 or 16 hour days you could make much more. Also from pipefitting you could get a welding ticket or even move over to a millwright which is a significantly lighter workload, although judging from the millwrights I've met you would spend all your cash on food and jump up to 300 pounds. Also you would be surprised at how easy the work is.

When I was doing stats analysis as part of my old job I spent about 3 hours a week doing work. I spent far more time at work than that load indicates, but most of it was paid free time. Its difficult to beat that sort of deal.

dogma wrote:I make more money now, as a graduate fellow, than I did as a gym manager; once all perks are considered (tuition waiver being the key item). Career changes don't negatively impact your earning potential if you do it correctly.


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BrockRitcey wrote:That was 100k in half a year. the other half you take off. And that is assuming you don't work crazy hours. If you wanted to do 12 or 16 hour days you could make much more. Also from pipefitting you could get a welding ticket or even move over to a millwright which is a significantly lighter workload, although judging from the millwrights I've met you would spend all your cash on food and jump up to 300 pounds. Also you would be surprised at how easy the work is.

When I was doing stats analysis as part of my old job I spent about 3 hours a week doing work. I spent far more time at work than that load indicates, but most of it was paid free time. Its difficult to beat that sort of deal.

Yes and I was able to shift from work from retail to legal services to finance to banking when I was young.
Doing that when you're 40 is more...difficult.

That happens everywhere though. At the shell site I was at last time I saw a couple of buddies of mine in the float cells of process and they were sitting down chatting and I asked what they were up to. They said they had a week to install this one pipe. The plan was to sit around and chat and then on the last day they had they would bolt it up and then weld the one end to the elbow. Northern Alberta is sick like that. If you actually want to work you can get a job as a subcontractor and then make a ton of cash. There was a welding company that our company hired to do some extra welding for us. The company got paid by the job so it actually expected good work out of it's workers. They got $60 an hour monday to friday and then double time on stats and weekends. They also worked 10 hour days. But they actually spent all day working.

BrockRitcey wrote:That was 100k in half a year. the other half you take off. And that is assuming you don't work crazy hours. If you wanted to do 12 or 16 hour days you could make much more. Also from pipefitting you could get a welding ticket or even move over to a millwright which is a significantly lighter workload, although judging from the millwrights I've met you would spend all your cash on food and jump up to 300 pounds. Also you would be surprised at how easy the work is.


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The only real downside to that work is you are in the oilsands in northern alberta. So you either have to live there or not mind flying. Which would be inconvenient if you live to far down in the states.

Of course its colder than a witch's in the oil sands. I am assuming this is summer work? On the positive I am sure your access to Horton's is practically guaranteed under contract. They'd even fly it in I'd betcha.

Frazzled wrote:
Yes and I was able to shift from work from retail to legal services to finance to banking when I was young.
Doing that when you're 40 is more...difficult.

Sure, especially when you have a family. But I don't, and I wasn't arguing otherwise.


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BrockRitcey wrote:That happens everywhere though. At the shell site I was at last time I saw a couple of buddies of mine in the float cells of process and they were sitting down chatting and I asked what they were up to. They said they had a week to install this one pipe. The plan was to sit around and chat and then on the last day they had they would bolt it up and then weld the one end to the elbow. Northern Alberta is sick like that. If you actually want to work you can get a job as a subcontractor and then make a ton of cash. There was a welding company that our company hired to do some extra welding for us. The company got paid by the job so it actually expected good work out of it's workers. They got $60 an hour monday to friday and then double time on stats and weekends. They also worked 10 hour days. But they actually spent all day working.

I suppose, then, that we're talking about an equivalent exchange. They had little overhead entering their position, and I get climate controlled working space.

Well there was a tim horton's right across the road at the camp. They coffee and doughnuts cost twice as much up there though. If you like plain doughnuts you can get the exact same ones in the lunchrooms at the camp though. (Literally the same ones, all the tim horton's goods were baked in the camp kitchens.)

The -40 Celsius isn't that bad. Most of the work was indoors once the buildings got put up though. And most of the outdoor work has to be done in the summer. It's hard to dig foundations and pour concrete when the ground is frozen.

Although I bet if you managed to cut out all the waste and had convinced people to actually work hard then gas would cost half as much.

BrockRitcey wrote:Well there was a tim horton's right across the road at the camp. They coffee and doughnuts cost twice as much up there though. If you like plain doughnuts you can get the exact same ones in the lunchrooms at the camp though. (Literally the same ones, all the tim horton's goods were baked in the camp kitchens.)

The -40 Celsius isn't that bad. Most of the work was indoors once the buildings got put up though. And most of the outdoor work has to be done in the summer. It's hard to dig foundations and pour concrete when the ground is frozen.

Although I bet if you managed to cut out all the waste and had convinced people to actually work hard then gas would cost half as much.

Yea but do they have maple glazed? I oculd care less for their coffee and other donuts but man I'll skin you alive if I'm in Canada and you're between me and a maple glazed donut.

Pro tip. To annoy a Canadian, remind them that Tim Horton's is owned by Wendys, and American company.

Yeah, wendy's did buy out timmy's. But I can't complain because wendy's burgers are so awesome. I would trade all the tim hortons in the world for wendy's burgers.

Good point.

I loved Wendys until I was served by a person with four fingers. DEAR WHERE THE DID YOU OTHER FINGER GO?!?!?!

As a former fast food worker, I can safely say you don't want an answer to that. Heck I was told to come into work with a nasty grease burn on my hand before. They don't care so long as the customer doesn't see it. This is why the kitchens are in the back. This is just one instance when you think about how many disgruntled workers spit in the food, change the 'timer' for how long the food has been sitting around under a warmer. It may be tasty, but knowing from experience, you don't really want to think too hard about what's in there. I haven't eaten at the restaurant I worked at since... well since I started working there.

The base salary as a tube train driver is about £40,000 a year.

You also get overtime, 37 days holiday a year, and free travel for you and your partner. And other stuff.

Is that good? Whats a tube train? If my boy were here, there'd be a lot of snickers about that.

A tube train is a train which goes in a tube underground. It is how we like to move around London. Safer from bombs and Haggises, you see.

£40,000 is probably worth about $80,000 when you consider the free healthcare and stuff you get for being in the UK.

The travel benefit could be worth another $5,000 a year.

Average salary in the UK is about £23,000.

I mean it's not bad considering I have 3D artists on my staff who did an MA and make less than that.

However it must be a very dull job.

Dude that sounds perfect.

I want that job. hell you dont even have to steer it, just press 'stop' and 'go' buttons! sounds awesome.

It's not quite as complex as that, actually.

There is just a handle you push forwards.

I wonder what tube train drivers think about during their shift. Maybe something philosophically along the lines of (that's got to be a lot of time to sit and think about the meaning of life):

"hmm... If everybody had my job we'd all be overpaid and giving each other rides to work until we starve, so that's why I love being just me doing this... stupid college kids. Just remember to tell my co-workers not to let the secret out or we'll be doomed!"

Frazzled wrote:Is that good? Whats a tube train? If my boy were here, there'd be a lot of snickers about that.

Subway train.

It's not quite as cushy as mr. KK makes out, not least due to the possibility of a collision with a blind tube mare.