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cheapbuster:

Interesting. Now could you provide an explanation as to why that's a problem, considerng its likelihood?

I really think there should be a way to instant death stuff like carnifexen. I hate those things, cause you have to only wound them, no matter how big or powerful your weapon. I mean, if I took a lascannon or tank gun and shot one of those things, I'd blast a gaping hole right through its chest or blow its head off and kill it right away. I understand that they should be nigh-invulnerable to little rifles and pistols, but not heavy cannons and other such weapons. A ball of plasma from a plasma cannon would melt away the thing's chest; a rocket would blow a giant hole in it; a multi melta ray would vaporize a huge hole in it.

To Scale it how about the player who caused the wound must make a strength test based off the weapons strength, if that is passed than the target player must make a toughness test of be ID'd.

It'd add a bit on complexity to the rules, but it would not add much more time, considering most things only have one wound anyway.

So a lasgun has a a 50% chance to hit a fex.
That hit needs a 6 to wound, 8.3% chance overall.
And a save of 3+ = 2.8%
Passing a S test (1-3) makes that a 1.4% chance overall.
Then the fex must fail a T test (roll a 6) resulting a 0.2% chance overall.
Ok, not great, but killing a fex with a single lasgun isn't exactly a big probability anyway.

Lascannon (BS3) Vs Fex, ID chance = 5.8%
Lasgun v Marine captain = 0.9%
Lascannon (BS3) Vs marine captain = 11.6%

% of just the S test and T test causing ID
Lasgun v fex = 8.3%
lascannon v fex = 13.9%
lasgun v captain = 16.7%
lascannon v captain = 27.8%

With the S test taken into account then it should scale up nicely. The only downside i see is normal charecters being taken out by small arms more easily than they are now. It would still be pretty hard to wound a fex, never mind get it to fail a T test.

Okay, there's basically two problems here: The first is making sure the conditions for Instant Death scale, Instant as the effect of a weapon notwithstanding, and the second is to make sure the causes for Instant Death also scale.

The problem with the Toughness test has been identified in that it flattens of after T5 and yields the same result for any weapon.

So here's what I figure: If a model with W2+ suffers an unsaved wound, roll again both to wound and to save until the model no longer has any wounds, or there are no more rolls to wound, or the model has saved any wounds caused.

Basically the conditons for Instant Death scale because it depends on Strength and AP, just like rolling to wound, and the cause also scales because it needs to wound and defeat saves again.

Example:

A squad of Imperial Guardsmen receive an order to Bring it Down prior to shooting at a Carnifex. That's 40 shots, 30 hit because someone is yelling at them, 5 wounds, 1.65 unsaved wounds, and then to see if they caused Instant Death those 1.65 unsaved wounds roll to wound and save again, for 0.09, etc.

Example 2:

A Lascannon hits a Space Marine Chaplain. He's wounded on a 2+, saves on a 4+. If he's wounded, and fails his Iv4+, then roll to wound again and to save if he's wounded. If he takes another unsaved wound, he's Instantly Dead!

What does this mean for Feel No Pain? This means that while a model may roll for Feel No Pain against the first wound it received, it doesn't get a Feel No Pain roll against the Instant Death wounds that follow up.

Example 3:

A Krak Missile hits a Plague Marines, and wounds it on 2+. The Plague Marine would get a Feel No Pain roll, and if it passed, then the attacking player would roll again to wound with the Krak Missile on a 2+, and if it wounded then the Plague Marine would receive no Feel No Pain and would be removed as a casualty.

I don't think they should do that with instant death, it sounds like your saying a lasgun should bring down a carnifex. And how does being immune to pain help you from being vaporized?

I think instant death should actually be more potent then it is, like, how the hell is a gaurdsman supposed to have a 1 in 6 chance of surviving being hit by a railgun!?!?!?!

Lizar7:

Firstly, as you may recall from the initial post, I was proposing this as something people could implement in their 500pt skirmish games. In other words, exactly the kind of Combat Patrol style game where Monstrous Creatures and Characters makes the game boring by being so thoroughly unkillable. Plus, this makes Instant Death more likely than it is now.

Feel No Pain, as you may have noticed, doesn't go a long way to preventing Instant Death, as wounds caused by the Instant Death effect ignore Feel No Pain, and Feel No Pain does not prevent Instant Death wounds.

sorry, I forgot the 500pts thing. You're right about annoying unkillable things being a pain, I guess I do have to agree with you.

On the subject of feel no pain, I don't get what your trying to say anymore so I think I'll shut up before I say anything absolutely slowed.

Lizar7:

Usually Instant Death is one of the conditions for ignoring the Feel No Pain roll that a wounded model with the Feel No Pain universal special rule would get. The way it works is:

hit -> wound -> save -> feel no pain.

By the 5th edition rules the general condition for Instant Death is a wound having been caused a Strength rating at least twice that of the wounded model's Toughness rating.

So a Plague Marine model wounded by a Krak Missile would not get an Armour save, because its Sv3+ is defeated by , the Krak Missile's AP3, and there would be no Feel No Pain roll because the Krak Missile causes Instant Death.

However, my proposal makes Instant Death organic to the sequence so there's no pre-existing condition that cancels out a Feel No Pain roll. My solution to this problem was to allow the Feel No Pain roll for the first wound, and disallow the Feel No Pain roll for any subsequent Instant Death wounds, regardless of the results of the Feel No Pain roll.

This means that sometimes a Plague Marine will be hit and wounded by a Lascannon, and get to roll a Feel No Pain roll, and then not suffer any Instant Death wounds thanks to the Lascannon's next wound roll being a natural 1.

Okay now it makes sense! Sorry for my stupidity, you're very right.

I'm confused now, so you want the change the order of dice rolls?

What's wrong with the dice rolls.

Especially since it was made so the Wounder rolls his dice, then the Defender rolls his...

No, the order stays the same. You roll to hit, wound, and save as normal. If you have an unsaved wound on a W2+ model, then you roll to wound and save again until either the model is removed as a casualty, you fail to wound, or you save.

Example 4:

A Space Marine Captain wearing Artificer Armour is hit by a Heavy Bolter:

Heavy Bolter: Wounds on 3+, Saves on 2+, if unsaved wound, then Wounds on 3+, Saves on 2+, if unsaved wounds, then... until any of the three following questions gets a 'yes': Does the Captain have any more wounds? Is the wound roll 2-? Is the save roll 2+?

Likelihood of Instant Death?

0.001, ignoring likelihood of hitting.

Current likelihood of Instant Death?

0.0, including likelihood of hitting.

A Space Marine Captain wearing Artificer Armour is hit by a Lascannon:

Lascannon: Wounds on 2+, Saves on 4+, if unsaved wound, then Wounds on 2+, Saves on 4+, etc.

Likelihood of Instant Death?

0.07, ignoring likelihood of hitting.

Current likelihood of Instant Death?

0.42, ignoring the likelihood of hitting.

Well this has opened a whole can of worms hasn't it?

Personally I think the Instant Death rule is fine.

As for introducing an altered version for smaller games I don't know. Personally I was fond of the 4th Ed combat patrol rules as they restricted things like Terminators, carnifexes or anything of uber W, Sv and AV being introduced and I'd be tempted to use those restrictions for my home games for anything 500 points or less. This solves the entire problem before it even begins.

As for changing Instant Death for standard games well...a Toughness test would be a way to go but that would mean your characters are far more vulnerable - and what about the effect of rending or high AP weapons - which would be more likely to ignore or completely disregard normal armour saves in the first place and so what chance does flesh have?

As for Feel No Pain against a Lascannon that hits and wounds, sorry. There'd be nothing left of the Plague Marine in order to function properly, although he might still not feel the pain (at least this is, to me, the reason why ID cancels out Feel No Pain at the mo' - if you're missing your internal organs, a missile has teared you apart or a meltagun has evaporated all your bodily moiusture it doesn't matter if you don't feel it).

Finally a lasgun shouldn't be able to cause instant death to anything in the game as it stands. It has no AP and is of such a low strength the orignal ID rule wouldn't apply to anything in the game. Fluff wise they explode on contact and all the shots would have to hit exactly the same place everytime to bore through anything as tough as a 'fex to cause a major killing blow. Even if a round hit a space marine, or even a multi-wound guard model for that matter, it may burst an eye or blast a nice whole in their cheek or forehead (perhaps exposing their brain) but they wouldn't 'die' or be out of action. However 30+ lasgun hits is a different story.

If I were to change Instant Death it might only apply to multi-wound models (I don't see the point in changing it for single wound models). Something like their standard T decreases by 1 for each wound inflicted for calculating Instant Death purposes only. So as a 'Fex is wounded more, more of its inner vital workings are exposed and (as an example) at 2 wounds left it would be T4 for calculating Instant Death - meaning meltas and krak et al would finish it off quicker. The strength of the weapon firing would be rounded down or up (i'd say down). This would make it more killable as the game went on. Simple.

My understanding is characters have higher wounds (though logically why should they?) than standard Infantry of the same type because they are more battle-hardened and determined to survive and fight, no matter the odds or their flesh wounds. Also would you be happy if any Special Character or Monstrous creature was killed by a single lasgun hit, no matter how small the chance? No. For me it goes against the fluff and the nature of the game since its inception.

i dunno about this.

it just sounds like your trying to complicate something that imho works well.

with instant death how it is people need to be more careful how they feild there army which just adds to the excitment.

i agree that as a DA player myself... when belial gets smashed in the face and dies instantloy i get a little frustrated. but that just makes you think about the way you need to play the game.

all this about toughness tests i disagree with. your example was someone T5 getting hit by ST4. if he takes a wound he rolls his toughness test. if failed (regardless of the odds) hes dead. thats kinda like saying A gaunt COULD kill Belial outright with one wound.

personally i think your pulling on air.

Instant Death works fine for the gaming purposes.

Regards

warspawned:

The fluff is irrelevant for game-play purposes. It can always be cut to fit the rules.

Besper:

Or, you know, doesn't work in situations where Monstrous Creatures are deployed in small skirmish games of about 500pts... Good work on reading the thread.

The fluff is irrelevant for game-play purposes. It can always be cut to fit the rules.

By fluff are you referring to the fluff behind Instant Death, as in this case, or to fluff in general?

Going back to your original proposition I would be okay to try it in smaller games.- however I still feel that it would turn Monstrous Creatures into Vulnerable Monstrous Creatures, which personally speaking just doesn't feel right.

warspawned:

I'm referring to fluff in general. Compare the fluff explanation given for the 4th edition casualty rules compared to the 5th edition casualty rules, for example. Likewise consider that some 'shots' in the rules represent hundreds of rounds in the fluff (assault cannons) whereas other 'shots' represent a single shot (lascannons). A lasgun shot to the head may or may not kill a Space Marine, but however many shots are represented by a 'shot' will put him out of action 1/3 of the time.

Regarding whether it feels right to you or not: that's why I suggested that my proposal only be used in smaller skirmish games.

Personally it feels right to me to have non-supernatural creatures be vulnerable to a single wound putting them out of action. After all, a shot to the brainstem puts anyone out of action.

Personally it feels right to me to have non-supernatural creatures be vulnerable to a single wound putting them out of action. After all, a shot to the brainstem puts anyone out of action.

I agree in spirit (kinda like Jango Fett against the beasty in Ep.2.) But that would have to be one hell of a shot and I think its nigh on impossible to relate it to weapons such as lasguns (please no Blaster references), which have no AP value and such a low strength - I just don't see why it should be possible for such a weapon to bore through a Carnifex's head into a brain stem - regardless.

A Sniper rifle or similar maybe....I think the weapon should have to have a high enough AP to justify it - or anything that ignored its armour save (power weapon cleaving through its neck etc), rending, to offer the chance of Instant Death in smaller games. So special weapons, power weapons and heavier weapons could well do it, even hot-shot lasguns etc...would that be a fair adjustment for you? I think it would be a little unfair on the opponent if his big bad beastie died to a weapon that had both a low strength and AP - they'd certainly have a hard time accepting it and so do I.

As for Assault cannons and anything supposedly of heavy rapid-fire capability - don't get me started...please...

The hard time I have is that they devote so much space to fluff and detailed background (which I love), push for a more cinematic gaming system and end up with Assault cannons putting out 4 shots - twice that of a lasgun? It's not even vaguely representative/relative is it? I'm not asking for 50 shots but give me what? 8, 10? An assault cannon should be capable of wiping out an Infantry squad - that's what they're designed to do (even if I had 8-10 shots, to hit, wound, and cover, would reduce it down anyway depending on the dice gods. I agree on what you say about fluff being irrelevant to game-play in this respect, but it isn't in so many other ways (Codex books/army lists/special characters etc)...it drives me nuts...

Fluff is, or should be, at the core of how the game is represented. This is why I would like just a bit more Dakka etc out of the game in general and why I'm looking to change a few things things - granted these changes may unbalance the game as it is - but until I try I won't find out for myself...to me the game as it stands just doesn't feel right yet. I don't know why but it's an unshakable feeling for me...

Okay, let me put it this way: representation is immaterial when it comes to game mechanics. I have my views about what is representationally appropriate and those views disagree with your views about what is representationally appropriate. It is entirely subject, and hence completely irrelevant. It's like trying to legislate that Lasguns must always be painted blue.

Hence I'm not proposing this because I think it's 'more realistic' or some other statement of preference with regard to representation, but because I believe that it coheres better with established principles in the game and improves gameplay as considered as a series of decisions made by the players.

I see and understand your point completely.

I just think its a little sad that the case today is that things are no longer representational when it comes to game mechanics. Or have, at the very least, a hefty compromise imposed upon them. I have my own understanding of why this has come about - but that's seperate to this issue.

I thank you for your patience and final clarity - even if we have agreed to disagree...

Things have never been representational when it comes to game mechanics. Wargames are simply games that come in a war-wrapping, to paraphrase the difference between certain financial products. It's like the models themselves: they can represent anything.

In that case my Grots will now represent Wall Street bankers...the little thieving gits...

It's moreso the case that you can use little 28mm models of Wall Street Bankers to represent the in game objects called "Gretchin".

This might be interesting for skirmish games but would probably just end up with people bringing as much firepower spam as possible in the hopes of invoking said instant death tests.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Bolter: Damage 1
Heavy Bolter: Damage D2
Autocannon: Damage D3
Missile Launcher (Krak): Damage D3+1
Lascannon: Damage D6
Melta Gun: Damage D6+1
Plasma Gun: Damage D2

You know, this is exactly what we had in 1st and 2nd edition. Except MUCH bigger values. A Lascannon did 4D6. A multi-melta did 2D12.

Vepr:

That's why I proposed that it be restricted to skirmish games.

Hi folks.
I am late to this thread.I apologise if this is has been covered before.

Instant Death.
If a weapon strenght is more than double the TARGET MODELS toughness value.
Any sucessful wound, may be re rolled , and if sucessful causes another wound .This contunues unitll the attacker fails to cause a sucessful wounding roll.
Record the number of wounds caused.

The 'TARGET MODEL' attempts to save these wounds as normal.

IF the 'TARGET MODEL' has Eternal Warrior, they may re roll any failed saves when attempting to save wounds from Instant Death .

This may need a bit more work.But it seems to be a simple alternative.

TTFN.

Nurglitch: Why not just houserule it for skirmish games? If you think it will work, playtest it. Mathammer will only go so far as opposed to actually playing it out over several games and see how it does.

CrashUSAR:

That's the proposal, Instant Death as a house-rule for skirmish games. To be honest math-hammer goes fair enough to planning out how the rule fits into the game structure, and all play-testing shows is whether the people play-testing it like it. I have a few interesting links about the utility of play-testing if you'd like me to post them.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with how helpful crunchin the numbers can be, but playtesting not only helps see if it's...well...playable, but also factors in that wildly random chance that math can't give ya.

Actually if the math doesn't factor in random chance, then you've done the math wrong. Playtesting doesn't help to check if something is playable since 'playability' is subjective and that's all play-testing can be. Playtesting won't help you determine how a rule will affect a game any more than rolling a die a couple of times will tell you the results you can expect to get in the future.

What will help you is a game tree, which is a way of diagramming games to determine all the possible outcomes of a single cycle of operation or turn or iteration or whatever you want to call it, and which choices are preferrable for players to make. The more operations required to affect the state of the game, all else being equal, the worse it is, so if you're going to require players to do more work then you have to reward them with a commensurate payoff for all that work.

My proposal requires that players roll more dice, which is more work, but it allows players to use multi-wound models in skirmish games, which is a payoff that I believe more than offsets the effort involved.