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Nurglitch wrote:Frag grenades are Assault Grenades. Read the rulebook.

Oh, right, you're right, that section on page 36, under "Grenades," where it says "Frag Grenades: these are treated like Assault Grenades in all respects."

Oh wait, it doesn't say that at all.

In fact, I don't see any rules for "Frag Grenades" anywhere on this page, or any other page.

"Frag Grenades" does not exist as a ruleset in the BRB.

Therefore, "Stikkbombs," which "count as Frag Grenades in all respects" do nothing, because the ruleset they reference doesn't exist.

Rulebook, The Rules Section: The Assault Phase, Grenades, p.36 wrote:Assault Grenades
(e.g. frag grenades, plasma grenades, and so on)

Emphasis mine. If 'frag grenades' are an exemplar of Assault Grenades, they are Assault Grenades. Learn to read.

I actually read the rules. yeah, the rules that read "Assault Grenades (e.g. Frag Grenades)" that then discuss frag grenades as a common example clearly dont' refer in any way to frag grenades being assault grenades.

This isn't even a case of needing RAI to cover a bad RAW. This is simply a narrow reading for the sake of being narrow.

I'd pay good, American money to see anybody make that argument in a court of law. Like, a lot.

Nurglitch wrote:Frag grenades are Assault Grenades. Read the rulebook.

By that logic, Storm Bolters are Bolters so can use special ammo.

Protip: An Example doesn't mean ALL.

Frag Grenades are given as an Example of Assault Greandes. One such example are Space Marine Frag grenades, which are Assault grenades.

Ork Stickbombs are just "Frag Grenades", which have no rules.

I must have clicked YMDC because oh look, another RaW debate spiraling out of control.

I wouldn't call it 'spiraling out of control'. I would call it the usual suspects embarrassing themselves in public again.

Nurglitch wrote:

Rulebook, The Rules Section: The Assault Phase, Grenades, p.36 wrote:Assault Grenades
(e.g. frag grenades, plasma grenades, and so on)

Emphasis mine. If 'frag grenades' are an exemplar of Assault Grenades, they are Assault Grenades. Learn to read.

First of all, lay off the personal jabs. They're unnecessary, they don't bother me, but they do make it very hard for the rest of us to take you seriously.

That said, allow me to explain how codices and rulesets work. When you see a line in a codex that reads something to the effect of "X counts as Y in all respects," what it's doing is referring you to a ruleset. A good example of this would be in the Ork codex. "A Powerklaw counts as a power fist in all respects." You read this entry, and what do you do? You go into the rulebook and you find the "power fist" ruleset to learn what exactly the powerklaw does. "Power fist" is a ruleset being referenced by the "Powerklaw" entry. It's also referenced by the "Power fist" entry in the Marines codex, the "Thunder hammer" rule entry in various codices AND the BRB, and so on. All of these things act like power fists, with various provisions to make them unique (such as the thunder hammer's "stun" effect).

So, when the Ork codex says "Stikkbombs count as frag grenades in all respects," it's referring you to the "Frag grenades" ruleset in the BRB. Lo and behold, no such ruleset exists. What DOES exist is an example of a type of "Assault Grenade" known as a "Frag Grenade," which is what shows up in the Space Marine codex ("Frag Grenades count as assault grenades in all respects.")

However, an example is not a ruleset. If a codex entry were simply referring you to an example, not a ruleset, then like Gwar! said, Storm Bolters would be Boltguns. Also, Lightning Claws would be power weapons (and wouldn't reroll missed rolls to wound), and so on. It creates for some very messy rules that are entirely incompatible with one another. Good thing this isn't how it works!

So when "X counts as Y in all respects," X is using Y ruleset. If Y ruleset does not exist, X does nothing.

That is why Stikkbombs, which do not reference an existing ruleset, do nothing.

Ok, I normally stay out of these debates, but please, let's at least look at what the rulebook says. It gives an example of what type of grenades act like assault grenades. The Ork book, if I recall correctly, came out right before 5th. Clearly the examples are showing what category grenades from 4th act as in 5th. Frag grenades are counted as assault grenades. Stikkbombz count as frag grenades...

So logically:
Stikkbombz = frag grenades = assault grenades.

Honestly, is anyone ever going to deny an Ork or Guard player the use of their grenades over something this inane? Simply because it is not stated "Yes, this wargear, which we have previously stated act in this manner, act in the manner which we previously stated. Therefore, since we previously stated they work this way, they indeed work in this fashion during the game."

...granted, that would be better than some of their rules of, "What, you didn't get the obscure meaning we implied?" but I think this one is a no-brainer.

Marrak wrote:So logically:
Stikkbombz = frag grenades = assault grenades.

So Heavy Bolter = Storm Bolter = Bolter then?

Sorry, but that is not how the rules work. Your claim that they "clearly" represent 4th edition Grenade types is completely unfounded.

How they worked in 4th is irrelevant.

Silly argument is still silly.

And not likely to go anywhere better than the last time around.