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and we don't have an explicit order of operations for Deff Rolla hits, the fact that you "immediately" apply the ram result tells us quite clearly that the ram result goes first. And when action number one goes first, action number two must then go second. Hence, the Deff Rolla hits are resolved after the Tank Shock.

My original post was made solely to point out that there ISN'T a prescribed order of operations.

The GENERAL rules tell you to immediately apply the ram result because it is necessary to continue the ram action.

Deffrolla rules tell us that the tank shock [ram] causes d6 s10 hits.

For emphasis:

Any Tank Shock [ram] made by a battlewagon equipped with a deffrolla causes d6 s10 hits.

The RAM causes d6 s10 hits. We're clear on that, right? It's the RAM that causes the hits.

Okay. So, when do we apply damage during a ram action? There's only one point in time in which damage is applied during the resolution of a single ram. So... instead of making up some post-ram ram phase, why not apply damage during the logical time?

You can do that if you want. It's kind of irrelevant, though.

SaintHazard wrote:...snip...
Only the ram hit itself may determine that.

...snip...

Deff Rolla /= part of the ram.
Ram causes boom = vehicle keeps moving.
Ram does not cause boom = vehicle stays still.
Deff Rolla causes boom = see ram result.

Wrong on almost every count.

DeffRolla IS part of the ram. In fact, the RAM causes the hits.

What is a RAM HIT? A hit caused by a ram? Awesome. A ram action performed by a deffrolla does d6 S10 hits. Those ARE THE RAM ACTION. Not after, or apart from. They are, quite literally, ram hits.

SaintHazard wrote:The order of operations (hereafter referred to for the sake of brevity as the OOO) can be simultaneous, I grant you that, but Gwar! is correct in that it doesn't matter anyway.

If the Deff Rolla hits are not part of the tank shock, even if they occur concurrent to it, they still do not determine whether or not the offending vehicle may continue moving if its victim goes boom. Only the ram hit itself may determine that.

So, in conclusion:

Deff Rolla /= part of the ram.
Ram causes boom = vehicle keeps moving.
Ram does not cause boom = vehicle stays still.
Deff Rolla causes boom = see ram result.

Quite simple!

I do see your logic but it does matter if the Deff Rolla is part of the ramming attack. If it is then the order is more like this:

Deff Rolla /= part of the ram.
Ram or Deff Rolla causes boom = vehicle keeps moving.
Ram or Deff Rolla does not cause boom = vehicle stays still.

See why it matters.

What we know is Ramming is a Tank Shock and any tank shock that inckudes a Deff Rolla generates d6 s10 hits. Still seems to me you take a normal ram and eat Deff Rolla. Why the heck did you buy that Rolla in the first place.

When used against a unit dont you check for leadership to get the heck out of the way. If you don't you get pounded by the Deff Rolla. Right?

Sainthazard, give up. I can already tell where this thread is going to go and it won't end well for you or me.

For those who think he is wrong: Sainthazard is correct. The Deffrolla and Ram are two separate things. They have to be, if they weren't, then a non-Rolla Wagon would not be able to ram.

In any case, this has been argued before, look them up if you want to argue about it.

So everything in the whole wide world that is caused by something else is part of that thing that caused it?

If an explosion causes a mother to cry, is she made of fire and ash? If a bullet causes a wound, is the bullet made of perforated flesh? If the order to launch a nuke causes the downfall of the nation, was the nation naught but words?

You can see how ridiculous this kind of logic can get.

On a more practical level, go back to what I said earlier. If I fire a flamerthrower at you, and cover you with burning napalm, the flamethrower caused the flames... but if the flamethrower was made of fire, it'd burn to the touch. Hell, it wouldn't even have the moving parts that would allow it to squirt said hot-stuff at you in the first place.

Just because the ram causes the Deff Rolla hits does not make the Deff Rolla hits part of the ram. Apply any more logic than what you're given and you're starting to stray into fluff-rules territory.

Just like a non-lascannon space marine can't shoot?

kartofelkopf wrote:Just like a non-lascannon space marine can't shoot?

Is the lascannon part of the Space Marine?

(it isn't)

kartofelkopf wrote:Just like a non-lascannon space marine can't shoot?

Incorrect analogy, but whatever.

If the Ram and Roller are the same thing (like you claim), how can a non-roller Wagon Ram?

Arrrgh! Ok, I leave. Now. Bye.

veritechc wrote:
When used against a unit dont you check for leadership to get the heck out of the way. If you don't you get pounded by the Deff Rolla. Right?

If you fail a leadership test, you make a fall back move, if you pass it you have the OPTION to DoG or walk away....it is my understanding you pretty much take the hits no matter what as you have been subjected to a Tank Shock no matter what...

Also, a better example than a bulldozer would be one of those large saws used to cut asphalt. It rams you at X mph causing an impact, after which is begins cutting...now fluff == rules, cheers all around!

As Saint said, the requirement to move forward is that the Ram causes the explosion, not an event caused by the ram causes the explosion.

SaintHazard wrote:

... ridiculous...logic

Sounds about right.

No, not all things caused by something are part of that something. But, in this case, it is.

Is where I finish my move part of the movement phase?

Are deffrolla hits part of a ram action?

Are Space Marines part of the Imperium?

It's a category issue- rams cause a hit- rams [made with a deffrolla] cause 1 hit, plus d6S10 hits.

Your irrelevant analogies are not helpful at all. The RAW state flat-out that the RAM CAUSES THE HITS. Using your logic, the ram could cause the hits and then we don't resolve them until 3 turns later in the assault phase.

kartofelkopf wrote:The RAW state flat-out that the RAM CAUSES THE HITS.

Glad you agree with us then.

The Deffrolla hits are not a Ram.

Gwar! wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:Just like a non-lascannon space marine can't shoot?

Incorrect analogy, but whatever.

If the Ram and Roller are the same thing (like you claim), how can a non-roller Wagon Ram?

Arrrgh! Ok, I leave. Now. Bye.

Very correct analogy. The SM (tank) can still Shoot (ram) without a Lascannon (deffrolla); the shot will just have a different effect.

Bye. You'll be dearly missed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:The RAW state flat-out that the RAM CAUSES THE HITS.

Glad you agree with us then.

The Deffrolla hits are not a Ram.

The ram causes the deffrolla hits. Pure RAW, that.

The Ram may cause the Deffrolla hits, but per the ramming rules, only the Ram itself causing an explosion will allow the ramming vehicle to continue on. Doesn't matter what sequence you resolve them in, doesn't matter that the Deffrolla can only be used when you Ram (Tank Shock). It's not part of the Ram.

kartofelkopf wrote:Is where I finish my move part of the movement phase?

No. It's an event that occurs in the movement phase.

kartofelkopf wrote:Are deffrolla hits part of a ram action?

No. It's an event caused by the ram action. If it was part of the ram action, then the Battlewagon could not ram without it.

kartofelkopf wrote:Are Space Marines part of the Imperium?

No, they're soldiers that fight for the Imperium. To be part of the Imperium, they'd have to be a planet, system, or segmentum.

SaintHazard wrote:Just because the ram causes the Deff Rolla hits does not make the Deff Rolla hits part of the ram. Apply any more logic than what you're given and you're starting to stray into fluff-rules territory.

This is where you got me. It makes perfect sense that you couldn't continue on from deff rolla hits, because it is the successful ram that causes them. I'm still unsure(possibly because I'm biased, playing Eldar and all, my army's all skimmers ) whether it makes sense from a RAW standpoint that skimmers can't avoid it, since a deff rolla is caused by a ram, and if I avoided the ram, how then can I be hit by a deff rolla?

SaintHazard wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:Are deffrolla hits part of a ram action?

No. It's an event caused by the ram action. If it was part of the ram action, then the Battlewagon could not ram without it.

That's idiotic- can a space marine not shoot if he doesn't have a lascannon?

The deffrolla is just a piece of equipment that alters what a Battlewagon's ram does.

If "an event caused by the ram action" isn't part of the ram, what is it part of? And why is it that "any tank shock made... causes" is not part of the ram, but "Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armour facing" is? You're arbitrarily making the decision to exclude one- an exclusion that makes no sense.

The rules are clear that the ram causes the hits (both the tank+mass+speed hit and the d6 S10 hits)- it is unclear on when to resolve the d6 hits. It makes the most sense to resolve all damage at the same time (the way it's done in almost all other cases where damage is being applied). It definitely DOES NOT make sense to make up a "post-ram ram action resolution phase."

kartofelkopf wrote:

The deffrolla is just a piece of equipment that alters what a Battlewagon's ram does.

No, it's a piece of equipment that gets it's own attacks whenever the vehicle it is mounted on Tank Shocks. The vehicle still gets it's Ram attack, the DR in no way alters that.

don_mondo wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:

The deffrolla is just a piece of equipment that alters what a Battlewagon's ram does.

No, it's a piece of equipment that gets it's own attacks whenever the vehicle it is mounted on Tank Shocks. The vehicle still gets it's Ram attack, the DR in no way alters that.

Check again- the deffrolla's entry states that "Any Tank Shock made by a Battlewagon equipped with a deffrolla causes D6 S10 hits."

The Tank Shock is the cause of the hits.

We don't say of a Space marine with a Lascannon that his lascannon gets to shoot. HE MAKES the shots- the Lascannon just alters what kind of shot it is.

Venomthropes have a rule that can cause Dangerous Terrain checks, does that mean the wounds are caused by the Venomthrope?

This all comes back to a Tank Shock is a special type of ramming!

SO yes the deff rolla is just that bad ass to run over 13" worth of vehicles

General_Chaos wrote:This all comes back to a Tank Shock is a special type of ramming!

No, it does not, really.

Unless you mean that the clarification itself is causing the problem. . . .

kirsanth wrote:Venomthropes have a rule that can cause Dangerous Terrain checks, does that mean the wounds are caused by the Venomthrope?

I'm not "inferring" that the hits are caused by ramming- the TEXT ITSELF says that the Tank Shock [Ram] causes the hits.

So, no- that's not what anyone is claiming.

Gwar! wrote:

Ennkay wrote:I have a question involving deff rollin'

when tank shocking with a deff rolla does the d6 str10 hits happen before or after the hit on the battlewagon, also if you destroy the vehicle do you continue movement through to your final distance, or do you stop after destroying a vehicle

would it theoretically be possible to declare a 12" tank shock through a land raider(presumably its disembarking patrons) and say a second land raider directly behind it?

You can't tank shock other vehicles...

If you mean ramming, then they happen AFTER the Ram hit. If the Ram hit fails to explode the vehicle, then you cannot continue on, even if the Deff rolla explodes it.

However, if the Ram DOES explode the vehicle, you can continue on and possibly hit another vehicle.

Oh my god. *turns pale* I agree with Gwar!.

*runs to strip and take a shower*

So basically if I read Team Gwar's argument correctly, when i ram a wave serpent, the player gets a skimmer save for the ram but still takes d6 hits. Exlint

Ennkay wrote:So basically if I read Team Gwar's argument correctly, when i ram a wave serpent, the player gets a skimmer save for the ram but still takes d6 hits. Exlint

No, you read it completely wrong.

In this case, the rules simply do not cover what happens, so you have to make a house rule.

I already mentioned that in this thread...

kartofelkopf wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:

The deffrolla is just a piece of equipment that alters what a Battlewagon's ram does.

No, it's a piece of equipment that gets it's own attacks whenever the vehicle it is mounted on Tank Shocks. The vehicle still gets it's Ram attack, the DR in no way alters that.

Check again- the deffrolla's entry states that "Any Tank Shock made by a Battlewagon equipped with a deffrolla causes D6 S10 hits."

The Tank Shock is the cause of the hits.

We don't say of a Space marine with a Lascannon that his lascannon gets to shoot. HE MAKES the shots- the Lascannon just alters what kind of shot it is.

No, it causes, ie allows, the attacks. It is not part of the Ram. We're not going to agree, so how many times do you want each of us to repeat this before we agree to disagree?

Gwar! wrote:

Ennkay wrote:So basically if I read Team Gwar's argument correctly, when i ram a wave serpent, the player gets a skimmer save for the ram but still takes d6 hits. Exlint

No, you read it completely wrong.

In this case, the rules simply do not cover what happens, so you have to make a house rule.

I already mentioned that in this thread...

feth.

Since this is a lost cause, I would be completely willing to agree with the deffrolla replaces the normal ram completely as in there is no hits after/before the tank shock damage. But you destroy the target you keep moving.

It would be So Good if it did just, so, so, good.

But the fact remains

"You've resolved the ram hit okay, and the vehicle didn't suffer a 'explodes', so you've followed the instructions 'the rammer halts', right?"