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Since when did craters give 4+ saves? If I'm standing behind a wall and you shoot me, sure, 4+ if 1/2 of me is showing. If I'm standing in a crater that covers my ankles then no.

Come to a compromise, a 5+ would be logical, a 6+ a bit extreme but if your so unfriendly then sure, why not.

The crater sizes also work IMO. Just use common sense and choose a crater that is roughly the shape of the vehicle and a bit of the blast.

Because they are cover type "c" on the Cover saves chart, which is 4+

Crablezworth wrote:
A wreck has very specific rules as defined on page 62, craters like any other terrain feature don't have specific rules and need to be defined and agreed upon before the game by both parties. In the example I gave, that discussion had never taken place. pg 13 "it is important that you and you opponent agree what class of terrain each feature falls into before starting your game" "you should discuss all such terrain features with your opponent before the game and agree exactly what everything counts as and where boundaries of terrain features lie. When the game is underway, it will be harder to discuss quite so impartially" pg 21 "before deploying their armies, it is a very good idea for players to go through all terrain pieces on the battlefield quickly and agree what kind of cover each will offer" pg 88"before continuing you should agree with your opponent how to define each piece of terrain you are using (see page 13 and 77 for more details). This doesn't take any more than a few minutes, but it is important to do BEFORE THE BATTLE STARTS - otherwise it has a tendency to cause confusion and arguments in the middle of the game."

Craters don't give cover... Cover from true LOS gives cover. Craters just give difficult terrain. If the crater is high enough that you can hide part of the model from shooting models, then it is TRUE LOS and there is no need for discussion unless you wish to make it some sort of softer cover. Almost everyone seems to default to 'cover = 4+'. You are not discussing if it gives cover or not, just 'what kind of cover'. The only other argument is if the terrain being used is abusive or not... which is a different discussion.

I am not sure what the argument is... He may use the crater, Craters are difficult terrain, if the crater gives TLOS cover, then he gets a cover save... which for 99% of people is a 4+ unless declared otherwise. IMHO the only discussion point is if someone wants the crater to be softer cover than 4+. If you fail to bring that up pre-game then 4+ it is. I don't see how anyone can claim that craters will never give cover because the game is TLOS. No amount of pre-game discussion wishes away TLOS.

It is 4+ unless you discuss it to be something else, because craters are in cat C - the only debate you really need is "should we play area terrain craters or not?", otherwise they are 4+, non-area terrain.

wizard12 wrote:Since when did craters give 4+ saves? If I'm standing behind a wall and you shoot me, sure, 4+ if 1/2 of me is showing. If I'm standing in a crater that covers my ankles then no.

Cover is determined based on the type of obstacle, not by how much of the model is concealed. A wall that grants a 4+ cover save gives the same save whether the model is concealed up to their neck or their knees. As it explains in the 'When is a model in cover' section, this is intentionally generous, to represent the model actually trying to move into the cover, rather than standing around with his feet stuck to a big round disc.

Craters by default grant a 4+ cover save as per the guidelines in the cover chart on page 21. So unless you decide otherwise before the game, that should be what you go with if in doubt. But it's a very good idea to discuss it before the game just to make sure both players are on the same page, as some people also treat craters as area terrain, while others don't. And you're still going to need some sort of agreement on just how large the terrain piece that replaces the vehicle should be.

The biggest problem with craters is that they aren't defined how large they are supposed to be. As for conflicts whether you get craters or not, well... honestly, are you to treat two armies differently just 'cause one of the guys playing forgot to bring terrain?! It may be according to the rules to deny someone the right to place craters while you yourself stick them down left and right, but how much of a TFG do you want to be?

I could, of course, argue semantics with the guy if I faced such an individual, since the rules aren't explicit who has to have the terrain; "you" in English is plural, while it is being directed at the reader, not once does it say who removes the wrecked vehicle nor who sticks down the terrain - it might just as well be directed at BOTH players.

Another interesting question is, if you have access to craters, are you actually allowed not to stick one down?

Oh, and the rules say the tank is replaced with "area of difficult ground". "Difficult ground" is actually not covered by the rules.

wizard12 wrote:Since when did craters give 4+ saves? If I'm standing behind a wall and you shoot me, sure, 4+ if 1/2 of me is showing. If I'm standing in a crater that covers my ankles then no.

Come to a compromise, a 5+ would be logical, a 6+ a bit extreme but if your so unfriendly then sure, why not.

The crater sizes also work IMO. Just use common sense and choose a crater that is roughly the shape of the vehicle and a bit of the blast.

This is strictly a tangent and not a real contribution to the topic, so excuse me.

I think you've got the wrong idea when it comes to cover and what it represents. A unit in area cover isn't standing in it, they're actively taking cover. Lying on the ground isn't the same as being pinned.
These two soldiers are pinned. They can't do much of anything, but on the other hand are reasonably safe from non-blast weapons, if rightfully scared.
These soldiers enjoy worse protection, but are still using it to their best advantage. They aren't pinned, even if they are prone.

That said, this is a game

So the chart overides the 5 statements about haviing to agree pre-game with you opponent what each terrain piece is and how it will function?

If TLOS takes all precident what prevents me from making craters that resemble small valcanoes and preventing all targeting of the squad inside?

Nothing, except in a tournament the TO may decalre them invalid, and you may have difficulties finding friendly games after a while.

Yes, the chart tells you waht the default is. If you dont agree to something else then guess what - the default applies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing, except in a tournament the TO may decalre them invalid, and you may have difficulties finding friendly games after a while.

Yes, the chart tells you waht the default is. If you dont agree to something else then guess what - the default applies.

If that were the case there would be no need for a pree game discussion.

Crablezworth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing, except in a tournament the TO may decalre them invalid, and you may have difficulties finding friendly games after a while.

Yes, the chart tells you waht the default is. If you dont agree to something else then guess what - the default applies.

If that were the case there would be no need for a pree game discussion.

The list isn't exhaustive, and GW likes to write rules as a "fun game you play casually". After all, their most important rule is "if you don't like it, change it (if you can agree with your opponent)".