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I just personally hate the stone thrower rules, I really liked guessing my distance made me more of a part of the game.

Challenger wrote:I do wonder if people forget that only empire and dwarfs have cannons.

And Skaven (Warp Lightning Cannon), and WoC (Hellcannon). I know the Hellcannon has its own set of wonkiness, but it's a cannon nonetheless!

The hellcannon is more like a stone thrower than a cannon...

powerful nevertheless, unless it starts to lose control....

As for cannons and mortars, it is true they got better, but not so much that you can build an entire strategy around them for every game...he who relies on warmachines dies with the warmachines.....as an empire player I believe the war machines are there for support...there WILL be games where all your war machines misfire in the same turn, and unless you have a backup plan you are screwed...and some scenarios WILL have your war machines as reserves, so a balanced army list is still the best...

Agree with this Freddie. I don't bring a lot of war machines, but the ones I have are pretty reliable. Even having said that, I almost always make my choices in the movement phase based on the possibility that they will all miss or fail.

Red_Zeke wrote:Agree with this Freddie. I don't bring a lot of war machines, but the ones I have are pretty reliable. Even having said that, I almost always make my choices in the movement phase based on the possibility that they will all miss or fail.

Also, warmachines can kill monsters and a couple of other prime targets, but other than that they'll struggle to actually kill enemy units outright. They excel at softening targets up for other units troops to kill, but relying on them entirely will result in weakened enemy units reaching your lines and then carving up your war machines very quickly.

The thing with empire is that its really easy to make a nice balanced list with 3 cannons and 3 mortars as there so dam cheap, while not as reliable as dwarven warmachines the amount they can fit into a fairly small points game is quite scary.

Cannons kill the monsters and other warmachines etc, and then try to snipe characters, whilst mortars/stone throwers make short work of enemy units. 1 hit on the mortar against elfs(and most t3 enemy) and youve made your points back, they are definetly worth it.

bennyboy6189 wrote:The thing with empire is that its really easy to make a nice balanced list with 3 cannons and 3 mortars as there so dam cheap, while not as reliable as dwarven warmachines the amount they can fit into a fairly small points game is quite scary.

Cannons kill the monsters and other warmachines etc, and then try to snipe characters, whilst mortars/stone throwers make short work of enemy units. 1 hit on the mortar against elfs(and most t3 enemy) and youve made your points back, they are definetly worth it.

it would depend also on the pointage....at 2000 pts the 6 warmachines would be more towards a gunline, but at 2500 the list would be more "balanced" with other elements in the army...

I have every motivation to complain about cannons, but.. a 1 out of 6 chance of the weapon not firing at all and when that happens a further 2/6 chance of the weapon exploding and killing the crew is pretty damn unreliable.

At least at that rate as a crewman I wouldn't expect to survive longer than a few battles.

I really want to meet these people that can guess a distance within a half inch between two models 48" away... People can be good range guessers and generally hit what they want but the myth that they are as accurate as placing a point exactly 6.5" away from the target (or whatever the mathematically best distance) is absurd. I'm sure there's at least one Rain Man type guy with that ability but he isn't close to the norm and structuring rules around him isn't good game balance. With things like mortars where a quarter of an inch can snag a large amount of extra models in the blast the argument is even more ridiculous.

What makes cannons (and other war machines) unbalanced along with no guessing and as mentioned previously the stupid "both rider and mount are hit by templates" rule is actual line of sight. When you don't roll to hit, penalties to ballistic skill don't apply so forests and other units don't factor into shots. So now we have sniper cannons/catapults hitting monsters, large characters, other less powerful war machines like bolt throwers or other juicy targets anywhere on the board with almost no way to stop this. This is also a problem with Wizards shooting magic missiles through infantry units because they can see a glimpse of the enemy through four ranks of troops and skill shot a fireball between them. Maybe in newer army books the points will reflect their greater accuracy and destructiveness . Right now the game is a balancing nightmare in general but we'll see if it all comes together once the books start being released.

Or you could just learn to deal with it and have fun. Gunlines arent as big a win button like DoC where back in 7th, in fact there are many times when they just loose.

I believe the rules are currently so since it is much easier to get into HTH in 8th ed than in 7th ed. Thus maybe by turn 2 the war machines will have no eligible target to shoot at!

War machines are also easier to kill now since you do not allocate bw the crew and the machine, and also any strength hit wounds on a 6. Thus throw enough shots at a cannon and its dead....in older editions it was harder to kill the cannon/war machine since it had 3 wounds at T7 (which s3 could not touch) as well as the 3 crewmen (sometimes even 4)...

As an empire player for over 10 years, the no guess rules doesn't affect cannons much, but hugely boosts mortars, as I have explained above...

i have always had a problem with gun powder in fantasy games - i much prefer a more ancient setting with magic and monsters filling the role of artillery. If there must be plain cannons (rather than warp weapons etc) then i can just about live with Dwarfs having them but would prefer them to have some kind of unigue rune powered war machine.
In terms of game mechanics GW cant seem to decide if cannon balls bounce like a ball or explode on impact like when they hit a Dragon and get the rider. It would make more sense if they were the same as stone throwers (remember these are cannons not field guns).
But the biggest problem in-game has always been point value-how can something that can kill a 800pt monster in one shot cost 100pts?

Because its a specialised gun, it can never shave of 800 pts of a large block for example, it cant even match its own cost unless it gets to go throu a lot of ranks on an expencive unit.

HoverBoy wrote:Because its a specialised gun, it can never shave of 800 pts of a large block for example, it cant even match its own cost unless it gets to go throu a lot of ranks on an expencive unit.

Most half decent troops when fully kitted out (ok not goblins/basic skaven) cost around 10pts each so you are saying a cannon cant hit 10 troops over 6 turns?? In my experience about 8 dead per on target hit is about usual also they can take out about the same number of cavelry or ogres etc from the right angle .

jprp wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Because its a specialised gun, it can never shave of 800 pts of a large block for example, it cant even match its own cost unless it gets to go throu a lot of ranks on an expencive unit.

Most half decent troops when fully kitted out (ok not goblins/basic skaven) cost around 10pts each so you are saying a cannon cant hit 10 troops over 6 turns?? In my experience about 8 dead per on target hit is about usual also they can take out about the same number of cavelry or ogres etc from the right angle .

Again, when cannons do well they tend to do REALLY well, but when they explode....well......

For those who have used war machines for a long time, have you noticed that misfires occur in bunches? Ah well, such is the fate of gunpowder weapons...

jprp wrote:But the biggest problem in-game has always been point value-how can something that can kill a 800pt monster in one shot cost 100pts?

The differing levels of effectiveness of weapons against different targets is the core of the strategy of the game. That a very expensive unit of Chaos Knights will tear through a mid-sized unit of Storm Vermin in a single turn, but struggle to make a dent into a large block of skaven slaves is not a problem with the game, but the central element of it's strategy.

That cannon is probably the most extreme example of this, as it is very effective against large monsters, quite effective against large blocks of expensive, tough troops, and somewhat effective against everything else.

jprp wrote:Most half decent troops when fully kitted out (ok not goblins/basic skaven) cost around 10pts each so you are saying a cannon cant hit 10 troops over 6 turns?? In my experience about 8 dead per on target hit is about usual also they can take out about the same number of cavelry or ogres etc from the right angle .

That's assuming the cannon is firing every turn, which is very problematic. It assumes the cannon hasn't blown itself up. It assumes a fast unit hasn't charged that cannon, or that it hasn't been taken out by ranged fire or magic. And it assumes the cannon has a target every turn, and given the frequency of second and third turn charges in the current game, that's an extremely unlikely assumption.

When I first started empire, I couldn't wait to load up on the black powder, I took around 60 handgunners, 3 cannons, and a HBVG in every list (didn't take any more war machines, because I didn't have the models).

3 games later...and I was ready to bench almost all of it, the cannons tended to blow up every game, and the HBVG barely made it past turn 1 on most occasions. Not being able to move the handgunners made them pretty lame as well.

So, even if someone does plant 10 warmachines on the table, take solace in knowing that *should* be around 1-2 blown up a turn.

I think a happy medium would be 5 - three mortars, one cannon, and one rocket launcher. It's not too overpowered, and not a point sink, so can load up on the good stuff!

greenbay924 wrote:So, even if someone does plant 10 warmachines on the table, take solace in knowing that *should* be around 1-2 blown up a turn.

Nah, rolling a misfire only makes you roll on the misfire table, which is only a 1/3 chance of blowing up. So it's closer to one exploding gun every second turn.

And that's before you consider any engineers.

My biggest problem with the canon rules is GW's insistence on having rifled cannons firing bouncing balls. You can fire a cannon down a narrow 1" alley between units , through a forest and drop that ball at the feet of a single individual in a mass of identically dressed (or at least very similar at that range) figures and hope he doesn't hear the warning (rolls a !) and takes the ball in the face. And the troops you have fired through don't care that this extremely loud noise (not to mention the unburnt powder and sparks are showering them) has just sent this screaming ball of death down their flank with nobody even getting their hair mussed. I get it it's a fantasy game, but really! Aside from the monsters and magic the technology of the Warhammer world approximates Europe during the Thirty Years War. And I don't remember reading about sniper cannons at Breitenfeld. Ah well, here's looking forward to 9th ed (cringe).

I find it funny that the monster spam player is one of the people deffending tha cannon in this thread.
I mean really cannons are so luck reliant that the loss of guessing is no big deal to me.

Durzod wrote:My biggest problem with the canon rules is GW's insistence on having rifled cannons firing bouncing balls. You can fire a cannon down a narrow 1" alley between units , through a forest and drop that ball at the feet of a single individual in a mass of identically dressed (or at least very similar at that range) figures and hope he doesn't hear the warning (rolls a !) and takes the ball in the face. And the troops you have fired through don't care that this extremely loud noise (not to mention the unburnt powder and sparks are showering them) has just sent this screaming ball of death down their flank with nobody even getting their hair mussed. I get it it's a fantasy game, but really! Aside from the monsters and magic the technology of the Warhammer world approximates Europe during the Thirty Years War. And I don't remember reading about sniper cannons at Breitenfeld. Ah well, here's looking forward to 9th ed (cringe).

you're playing the wrong game bud.....

freddieyu1 wrote:your playing the wrong game bud.....

You may be right. This definitely aiint the game I been playin' for the last 20+ years/

By the way my what exactly is playing the wrong game? Or did you mean to say "You're"?

Durzod wrote:

You may be right. This definitely aiint the game I been playin' for the last 20+ years/

Huh? At what point in the last 20 years did cannon shells in WHFB ever deviate off of the straight line?

freddieyu1 wrote:

Durzod wrote:My biggest problem with the canon rules is GW's insistence on having rifled cannons firing bouncing balls. You can fire a cannon down a narrow 1" alley between units , through a forest and drop that ball at the feet of a single individual in a mass of identically dressed (or at least very similar at that range) figures and hope he doesn't hear the warning (rolls a !) and takes the ball in the face. And the troops you have fired through don't care that this extremely loud noise (not to mention the unburnt powder and sparks are showering them) has just sent this screaming ball of death down their flank with nobody even getting their hair mussed. I get it it's a fantasy game, but really! Aside from the monsters and magic the technology of the Warhammer world approximates Europe during the Thirty Years War. And I don't remember reading about sniper cannons at Breitenfeld. Ah well, here's looking forward to 9th ed (cringe).

your playing the wrong game bud.....

I have to agree with freddie here. Sure WHFB is a tactical game but it's not realistic to that extent. I don't mind the cannon rules as they are, they certainly aren't the most unbroken thing in the game.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:I don't mind the cannon rules as they are, they certainly aren't the most unbroken thing in the game.

Yeah, like freaking Wood Elves and their freaking Warhawk Riders... Have you seen those guys?!?!

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:We also maxed the number of power dice per magic phase at 12, and that was even more well appreciated.

Um... Isn't that already a rule? or am I just missing something here? hahaha

You cannot have more than 12 power dice at any one time, but over the course of the phase, you can use more if you have a method of generating dice. (Death magic, Boon of Tzeentch, Power of Darkness, Focused Rumination...)

Fair enough, I see what you're getting at with that.

I didn't mind the old rules of guessing but I don't think that the new system is overpowered. It makes them more deadly but then again so is everything else. CC is fought with two ranks, units get off charges quicker and easier, magic can be devastating. It really just brought cannons in line with the new playstyle of mass carnage.

Seems some don't have the stomach for mass carnage.

HoverBoy wrote:Seems some don't have the stomach for mass carnage.

More likely that there are some who dislike the dice taking over the game. I was looking forward to Warhammer 8th Edition. What I got was Dicehammer 1st Edition.

How have dice taken over? The random magic phase? I play dark elves with a magic reliant list, it has yet to come back and bite me. Even 3 dice (the bare minimum I get w/ the +1 from magic item) is enough to cast one spell.

So far, I think 8th edition has come a long way from 7th in terms of enjoyment. Obviously, it's not perfect, there are still things to exploit. But it has improved.