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Necanor wrote:
Come on, the witch hunter codex is 3 Edition.

I said the game doesn't match the fluff. If you want to improve the game to the fluff then make a new game

The Initative is based on the plaguebearers. Also, since when are dogs with rabies undead bodies

Fluff takes a backseat to game mechanics, but it still plays a huge role in the game. If someone can make the game more fluffy in a way that actually benefits game play than they are on to something.

Someone on PCP may run much faster and longer than they normally could, they are capable of feats of strength that surpass their normal self, and they are generally augmented in all their physical actions as demonstrated by the videos of a dozen law officers having to work together to tackle and restrain one screaming naked guy running down the street. PCP doesn’t increase muscle mass, all it does is take down the level of innate self protection humans have with their own bodies. Zombies are in the same boat. I keep mentioning Max Brooks because he is the best selling zombie author in the world and it is his zombies, for the most part, that are the inspiration to my zombies. I am completely rejecting all the old Day of the Dead, Romero like zombies that are the accepted norm for many people. We hear stories where people are able to perform extreme feats under extreme circumstances like the grandmother lifting a car off her grandson and other such urban legends about adrenaline boosts that end up destroying their bodies. Zombies are able to function at this extreme all the time almost giving the impression that they are super human, but they just lost the biological need to protect themselves like someone with a PCP addition who just tore the door off a cop car even though he tore half the muscles in his arms to perform such an action. This is described in length in the zombie survival guide. Also right from my own codex:

Grunt13 wrote:It is a common error to assume zombies are slow to react or “brain dead”. They possess comparable level of reaction speeds as their living counter parts, clawing and biting like rapid animals. The slow reaction myth probably stems from the zombies' staggering gait, much like a drunkard. It is not hampered reflexes that causes this impaired movement, but that the modified zombie brain has difficulty mastering bipedal locomotion.

Whatever your media sources are on zombies I reject them. Repeatedly insisting I modify the zombies to match your perception is a lot like Twilight fans following around a vampire horror movie director recommending that the vampires in his movie glitter and whine about their feelings. The witchhunter codex is still canon and used by players for their armies. The game system didn’t go through some giant redefinition between third and fifth that would justify the disregarding of material as dated – it all still applies.

punkow wrote:Oh... another thing.... almost every fandex have a OP independent character.... this one makes no exception

I think your bias is showing. Seems like you are just trying your darnest to find an issue with the codex.

Basing the carrion lord on something and outright copying are to different things, the carrion lord not a human being, the rogue psyker is just a deranged individual with warp powers that has joined up with an army, my character is the inhuman commander of a zombie army – I just brought up the comparison because its 5 wounds became an issue. The character suffers impairments due to the fact that it will either join the slow moving zombies and have to travel at a crawl, or join toughness 3 6+ units and get very little protection, or just hang out by itself. It also doesn’t get the option of using two powers a turn like most character psykers with their familiars and spirit stones, so it is stuck picking one of the three abilities each turn. Eldritch Energy is the reason for its WS, attacks, and its strength 6 rendering hits (this likely averages to one AP 1 hit every two combat turns). The carrion lord is not fighting in the sense that it is throwing punches, but in the sense that it is saturating the air with forking volts of energy frying those attempting to attack it. He is just as tough as a Demon Host with less abilities. They also have 6 psychic powers that are randomly determined each turn. Daemon Hosts are 85 points, and they are ridiculed by the community for not being competitive.

The averaged marine HQ or assault unit would outright murder a carrion lord, I don’t know how you mathhammer out your results, but you are way off. With 4 attack dice a turn, only a 4++ save, and given the only unit that can really shield him from an assault is a large unit of zombies which will not hold up to an elite assault force - throw in the no retreat wounds the unit is bound to tack on and you see how playing the carrion lord as an combat unit would be a big mistake. With rendering the carrion will score and average of 1 power weapon hit every two combat phases, not really scary to a 2+/4++ marine character or a squad of striking scorpions. When I put it through a combat calculator, 5 striking scorpions win 2/3s of the time when they charge the carrion lord (80 points in scorpions). And a squad of 10 normal marines without any specialist or sergeants wins 98% of the time out of 500 trials. The calculator also uses the 4th edition rules for rendering which was much more effective than it is now in fifth. My carrion lord is much less scarier in combat than a single daemon host, which everyone says is a crap unit at 85 points, so I think I am about right with my character. As for the fluff, perhaps read the soul drinker’s book which I made mention to, most of the stuff that you raised issue with is right there in that book. The character put up a bit of a fight when marines confronted it - a lot more than my carrion lord is able to.

Zombies now have Without Number, so they are now the horde army everyone wants them to be.

@ Necanor

So you don't think people should improve the game?

I have to agree with punkow, that the Carrion Lord seems overpowered, but it doesn't have a power weapon. I think that it should either be more pricey, easier to kill, or have less attacks.

9 points seems like a lot until you consider the non-exsistant upgrades, though I think 7 points would still be reasonable. Just compare Kroot to a Guardsman. For +2 points you trade your 5+ armor save to infiltrate, +1 cover in woods and jungles, + 1 WS, +1 Strength, + 1 Attacks, and a bolter style gun. The zombies are tougher by a lot, but they can't infiltrate, they get -1 to cover saves, slow and purposeful, they can't shoot, and they hit pretty much everything on a 4+ in CC.

I think your bias is showing. Seems like you are just trying your darnest to find an issue with the codex.

I'm sorry if my criticism seems unconstructive... really...
I really love your idea and your realization of this fandex, (I really love fandexes)

But naturally i won't tell you about units that are fine... I will discuss things that , in my opinion, needs some adjustment...
And I still think that your zombies are overpriced for their effectiveness and that Carrion lord is underpriced for his effectiveness...
Naturally is my opinion... And be sure that I'm not saying this fandex is OP (like a lot of fandexes)... I'm just trying to contribute on some issues...

Zombies now have Without Number, so they are now the horde army everyone wants them to be.

Yeah!!! really love it!!! they keep coming!!!

1. Grunt, if you don't accept our criticism you shouldn't have asked for our opinion in the first place.
2. I don't say that people shouldn't improve the game, Ijust mean that you can't compare the fluff and the game.

On the carrion lord I think you are missing the units weakness and over exaggerating its abilities. The carrion lord is one of the slowest and most exposed HQ in the game. It suffers either movement restriction when joining a unit that can actually protect it from ballistics and extreme vulnerability when joining the toughness 3 6+ units or being on its own. It can’t ride in a transport or enhance its movement like most HQs. It lacks both body armor and a power weapon, again unlike most HQs. Rendering is poor substitute for a lack of a power weapon and having an initiative of 3 is also going to weight against it in close combat. The carrion lord is tough and can take a lascannon hit with this eternal warrior, but a 4+ save isn’t that great when dealing with a spray of bolt, shuriken, or even las fire – it is a lot easier to gun down the Carrion lord than many other HQs and its durability is supposed to be a main strong point. But another issue is the psychic powers so lets look at that.

Raise Dead: It has a long range of 24 inches which is a strong plus considering the short range of the other two powers. Half a unit’s casualties are turned to zombies. The down side to this is that the zombies emerge at the end of the zombie player’s turn. Here’s a scenario; the carrion lord casts this power on a squad of 10 marines 24 inches away. A leman russ then kills all ten marines with a pie plate. An average of 5 zombies will than be placed on the table – they won’t be able to do anything because the zombie player's turn is over. The marines now have the relatively minor annoyance of 5 zombies hanging out next to his army, which then are wiped out by double tapping marines or in hand to hand combat.

Control Dead: By removing shambling from every unit within 12 inches of the carrion lord the power allows the zombie army to move at a normal speed enjoyed by the other armies. The disadvantage with this power is that to be properly exploited the zombie army has to clump around the lord and that can be exploited by the opponent, particularly if he has blast weapons.

Puppet Master: Probably the scariest on paper, but it actually is pretty tame with a limited range of 12 inches and small impact against most units. It will inflict different result to different units, but the zombie player will be lucky to score 3 kills on a ten man marine squad. It doesn’t compare well against the other offensive powers in other armies that are armor ignoring templates and blasts hits.

The powers are actually fairly weak when you start comparing them to what is available to the farseers Librarians, and chaos sorcerers – plus the carrion lord is only able to cast one a turn unlike the above. Farseer are 55 points base cost, Autarchs are 70, an archon is 60, and a necron lord with a staff of light is 100 points. Considering everything the carrion lord has going against it, I think 100 points is a reasonably price for it.

Necanor wrote:1. Grunt, if you don't accept our criticism you shouldn't have asked for our opinion in the first place.

I think the amount of text I posted in reply to the comments in this thread show how well I handle criticism and the degree of consideration I gave to each suggestion. Saying that simply disagreeing with someone’s statements makes them disagreeable is a faulty argument – I could equally claim that you are unable to handle criticism of your criticisms. When challenged, I repeatedly justified my codex by explaining my units in detail both in terms of fluff and game mechanics.

You made repeated posts stating I should weaken the zombies; their toughness, attacks, weapon skill, and so on with little justification for the change. I responded to each giving detail reasons why the change is undesirable. I concluded this all stems from a personal belief on your part that zombies should be very weak combatants. My last post was an attempt undercut that sentiment and stop the torrent of demands that spout from it, while highlighting the concept that my zombies are not the weak creatures you are pushing. The amount of justification and evidence I put forth in my posts should be a testament to how well I handled your comments.

mmmmh you keep valuating the carrion lord cost only against Meq ... s 6 is enough to instadeath guards and eldars... and I played scenarios with the rebel psyker and i can assure you that the more the unit is powerful, the more casualtie you will have with puppet master ( to the extreme of entir units wiped out: 5 terminators dead... it's not so difficult to fail 5 5++ saves)

So I keep recommending: nerf his close combat abilities ( I don't still understand the necessity of S6 both from a fluffwise side and game balance) and the puppet master power ( Maybe the affected unit Ld matters for determining how many members of the unit make their attacks)
....
Or raise the point cost to at least 150...

Cheaper zombies aren't so necessary with the "without number " rule but there is actually a stat line for nurgle zombies on Imperial armour 7 costing 6 points each.... maybe you can take a look at 'em

1. With 100 points the Crrion Lord is one of the cheapest HQ's in the game.
2. Just because you wrote a lot of text, it doesn't mean that you're arguments on those rules are well handled.

Necanor wrote:1. With 100 points the Crrion Lord is one of the cheapest HQ's in the game.

I know plenty of cheaper options...

Chaos Lord. 90 points.
Dark eldar Archon. 60 points.
Chaos Daemons Herald of Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. 50 points.
Chaos Daemons Herald of Khorne. 70 points.
Chaos Space Marines Chaos Sorcerer. 100 points.
Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince. 110 Points.

Need i go on?
I can't think of a single codex whos cheapest HQ comes to more than 100 points...

@ bloodhorror: These HQ choices are totally naked: you have to arm them reaching at least 150 points ... except for the daemon prince that is a little OP (in my humble opinion... but I always use him with great result where the chaos lord is pretty useless)
but you can shoot at him cause he's not an IC....
Considering 5 wounds... an overall good save and pretty powerful Psykik powers, carrion lord can't be compared to a space marine captain with close combat weapon, bolt pistol and frag and krak grenades

Very Fair point!

i agree with your point on the DP however ;-)
110 points for cheap ass combat magic !!!

My character can instakill toughness 3 characters. Husk blades and blissgivers are insta kill power weapons that work on carnifexes. A flesh gauntlet can take out a c’tan. Also all grey knights have strength 6 combat attacks some of which are power weapon hits. Relic blades are available to the marine characters. Having 4 Strength 6 hits with the chance of the occasional rendering just does not compare.

Necron lord 100 points: staff of light. power weapon and strength 5 AP 3 Assault 3 gun.

Archon 110 points: blast pistol and husk blade Or Shadow field and agoniser - same price.

Farseer 90 points: witchblade, ghosthelm, rune armor, fortune, and runes of warding.

Tau crisis suit commander 102 points: fusion blaster, plasma rifle and multi tracker

Autarch 100 points: jetbike, force field, power weapon, plasma/ haywire, pistol

Warboss 95 points: power claw and cybork body

In combat, 5 striking scorpions win 66% of the time, 10 marines win 98% of the time, and squad of 10 imperial guard without upgrades wins 40% of the time and 10 storm guardians wins 80% of the time – this is done through a combat calculator and doesn’t account the squad firing at the carrion lord with their pistols before assaulting. Aside from an extra wound and eternal warrior my carrion lord has the same basic stats as a daemon host with weaker, but non-random, psychic powers. Considering that it can’t be modified and all the other weakness I addressed in my previous post I think 100 points at is a fair price. 150 points puts it into the avatar’s price territory and the carrion lord is leagues away from comparing to the avatar. Out of the successful combat HQs; archons, heralds, marine captains, autarchs ranging from 90 to 110 points, how many of them are slaughtered by a unit of storm guardians or unequipped marines?

Necanor wrote:1. With 100 points the Crrion Lord is one of the cheapest HQ's in the game.
2. Just because you wrote a lot of text, it doesn't mean that you're arguments on those rules are well handled.

My replies are full of examples that directly relate it the codex be it fluff or game mechanics in nature. I repeatedly justified my codex using previous rules, background material, outside scores, math hammer, and simple comparison. It is the evidence referenced within my text that shows the level of consideration I put into your replies, can you make an equal claim?

All right grunt... keep your mathammer and comparisons...
You're mixing roles and misunderstanding the point:
In the list above everyone has strenghts and weaknesses...
And don't mix with the avatar... Carrion Lord is IC so noone can shoot at him with lascannons (avatars can't really say the same)

The point is: Is it necessary to keep puppet master that way?
I explained that on basic masìrines maybe it isnt so strong but if you cast it on a termie squad or on aspect warriors or chaos bad guys etc etc..infinite list
You will make a massacre... And it is even worst because lil guardsmen probably will survive but veteran termies will not... so I think you should make it somewhat weaker: for example : 3d6- Ld models of the unit makes one attack (or all their attacks... do not have times to make calcs about a series of example units).
The power would be more balanced an taking in account the fact of veterans having stronger minds...

And... If you don't want your hq in close combat... is S6 necessary? from a fluffwise side is it? I don't think so...

And the fact he hasn't a power weapon is a bad nerfing only against certain armies....

Everybody is saying that this hq is OP... would you like to at least take in account this possibility and propose a different version?

Combat Ability:
In combat the carrion lord will average about one MEQ kill a combat turn and score under two IG kills. For a 2+/4++ marine character the carrion lord will inflict an average of 1/3 a wound every combat round – meaning that he would have to be in combat for an average of 3 rounds in order to put wound one on Grimnar. As for insta-kill, powerfist in the IG are a lot more threatening to archons and autarches than my character.

Durability: When dealing with normal attacks (lasfire, boltfire, bayonets, chain swords) a marine captain with a 3+ save has to take an average of 9 wounds before dying due to failed armor saves. A +2 save character has to take an average of 18 wounds before expiring. My character takes an average of 10 wounds before falling. In a firing squad scenario the carrion lord is only slightly tougher than a marine captain. In hand to hand, because of the low initiative, comparably low kill rate of the carrion lord, and No retreat, it is a lot easier for a unit like kroots, IG, guardians, flayed ones, beserkers, to take down than the marine captain.

Weaknesses:
No power weapon
No ballistic weapon
No transport
No regular armor
Weak psychic powers that are limited to 1 a turn
Limited movement
Poor choice in bodyguards
Can’t be modified like most HQs in the game.
Initiative 3
All attacks count as psychic so it is very vulnerable to all anti-psyker wargear

Puppet master has a range of 12 inches. Transports and jetpack assault can easily assault the lord without worry. The transport will protect them from the power and the faster units could just charge in without concern. Puppet master keeps the marine player from just dropping a squad of terminators right next to the carrion lord's unit and cleaning up.

Assault squads like scorpions, beserkers, assault marines, flayed ones, banshees, even flamer packing storm guardians can deal with the carrion lord and a 20 zombie retinue fairly easily. Steer a transport right up to the carrion lord’s unit and wait a turn. The lord will not be able to assault the tank if it has a decent distance between the two and has no way of gunning it down. Next turn a unit of scorpions or whatever jumps out and assaults. A typical 10 man strong unit with an exarch can take out the carrion lord and 20 zombies same with most capable assault units. Hop out, shoot up the zombies, and assault; all basic attacks to the carrion lord anything that pens armor to the zombies. Thanks to No Retreat the lord can be killed without anyone even landing a blow against him.

You are not operating with a mandate here. Simply having three people voice a concern over my lord does eliminate the need to actually provide a basis for your argument. The carrion lord is basically a modified daemon host - do they need to be strength 6? The only evidence you provided, that a carrion lord will easily defeat Grimnar in combat, is obviously false. How about actually giving an exact scenario where my carrion lord is shown to be OP? It doesn’t take a genius to realize not to put a squad of incubi or terminators within 12 inches of the lord, it is the same common sense that marines players use when they don’t clump their entire army up into a cluster when facing IG pie plates.

Kick Grimanr's ass is obviously exagerated but we're on very different point levels...
Anyway i said all I think of the dex... It's good cept for basic zombie and Hq stats and maybe not so fluff-flavoured Heavy supports ...
I'm outa here...
seeya

For the record the Battle at Yonkers was not won because the zombies were tough....It was won on several factors

a)The new land warrior system was in use by the troops, they became demoralized by not only hearing their fellow soldiers being overrun and eaten by the zombies over the COM, they also were able to see the entire thing in their HUD.

b)Soldiers are trained to aim for centre mass, its the largest target and easiest to hit. Ineffective versus zombies in general.

c)The tanks they had brought only had something like three anti personal shells which were described much like a shotgun shell. The rest of the ammunition they had was High Explosive rounds which really don't work against infantry, tended to blow zombies into smaller dangerous bits.

d)They at one point used an air strike from memory it was described like a fire bomb. He also goes on to explain that the main effectiveness of this weapon is its ability to burn the oxygen out of the air and causing great internal damage to anything in the radius. It killed zombies at ground zero but the secondary effects were ineffective against the dead.

So in short it was the Higher Tech armies equipment and training doctrine in general which caused them to fail, not the zombies toughness. Which I agree they are at first, but it is also stated in the book as time passes the zombie continues to decay therefor becoming weaker until they fall apart.

I don't think grunt' units are super OP, though the carrion lord seems a little unbalanced. A savvy opponent will target the zombies HQ, making them a slow mindless rabble which they can chop up easily.

Necanor wrote:Grunt, because it seems too hard to make you realize how OP your units are, you should ask a friend if he could play the Zombie army against one of your other armies. Play some test games and then post again.

I already have, extensively. Back when LatD was canon I made up my entire army from the LatD codex. But I was unhappy with options for my leader. So I grudgingly created a terminator sorcerer and used him to proxy the carrion lord with lighting claws – the armor and weapons were stated to be psychic attacks/defenses. This was a forced role, so I wrote my own rules for an HQ and gave my opponents the option of facing the terminator sorcerer as my leader or the one I created. Most (actually all if I remember correctly), after examining the two characters, decided to play my rules; many correctly reasoned that it was the weaker version. This character was very close to the lord in my codex and I have had a lot of experiences playing it. It has been torn apart by termagaunts, gunned down by tau, beaten to death by marines, and even stab to death by imperial guards when its zombie bodyguard disappeared under a blast template. My gaming experiences parallel everything I said above about its capabilities. The character was mundane at hand to hand combat with weak easily countered psychic abilities stuck with the slow moving unit of zombies. It was created, not to be a powerful HQ, but a fluffy character to lead the zombies.

If you can’t give a concrete reason why something is broken then you don’t have a case. Creating a pretense that there is an obvious fault in the character that I am somehow blind to, but everyone else can instantly recognize is a little to “Emperor’s Clothes” for me to accept. If you are unable to put forth a single situation that justifies labeling the character as OP then it might be time to rethink your position.

Hm...

For me, a base zombie would be..

5 - 30 Models, 5 Points Each

WS2, BS-, S3, T4, W2, I2, A1, Ld-, Sv6+

Slow and Purposeful

Mindless - Zombies are Fearless and automatically pass any Morale or Leadership tests. At the beginning of the movement phase, roll a di. On a result of 1, the Zombie unit scatters 1d6" for its movement (on a Hit, the player may choose the direction). Otherwise, the unit moves as normal.

"They just... keep.. coming!" - Zombies that are reduced to zero wounds are laid down on the table. At the beginning of the Zombie player's turn, each model rolls a di. On a result of 4, 5, or 6, the Zombies are stood back up, and immediately make a 6" movement towards its unit. After that, if the unit is still out of cohesion, the unit moves as normal to get back into cohesion.

If a unit of Zombies is completely destroyed, they are put back onto the table from the Player's table edge at the beginning of the next turn.

Finally, Zombies are unaffected by all Psyker powers except for Psychic Shooting Attacks, and cannot be moved by any abilities that would force them to move.

Need to Feed - When in line of sight of a non-vehicle unit, the Zombie unit rolls an additional di for its movement (choosing the highest of three dice) and gains Fleet. The zombie unit must move as fast as possible towards the enemy unit (but may fire weapons instead of running). The unit must attempt to engage an enemy unit in an Assault during the Assault phase.

"Join us... Join us...!" - For every enemy infantry model killed by a Zombie during an Assault, roll a die. On a 5 or 6, place another Zombie model in the unit. It has all the properties of a non-Champion Zombie.

Feel No Pain

Wargear - A Single Close Combat Weapon

For every five models in the unit, one can be upgraded to a champion for 10 points. A champion has BS2 and has a firearm. Each champion rolls randomly for its weapon at the beginning of the game.

1 - Bolt Pistol
2 - Bolter
3 - Heavy Bolter
4 - Rocket Launcher
5 - Lascannon
6 - Multimelta

Ok, sorry Grunt your Zombie rules are fantastic compared to these...

I kinda of like the idea ballistic zombies mixed into the normal herd. I think the “They just keep coming rule” might be a bit much as it is an unconditional WBB rule, with the addition of 2 wounds and FnP the zombies become very hard to kill. I would also be concerned about the likelihood of having 4 or 5 heavy weapons in a squad of 30 zombies that could pop tanks all day while taking hits. But like I said, I like the mix of ballistic zombies within the normal zombies I might have to consider something like that for a heavy choice in my codex. Your zombies would be fun for a scenario, but it would be somewhat off to have them be the main unit for an army.

Updated Codex Again:
One of the big problems I had with my games is that my opponent would completely ignore the zombies for the first two turns and just blast way all the non-zombie elements in my army. So, the ghoulies/traitor guard, acolytes/blood pack, and hounds were singled out by my opponent despite that there was a 30 strong units of zombies baring down on his gun line. So I created the “Shielded by the Undead” rule to be a fluffy way of combating the vulnerabilities of the non-zombies in the army. The zombie hunter rule was just included because I like the narrative it suggests.

Shielded by the Undead: The non-zombie elements of the horde have mastered the art of using the corpse legions to mask their presence on the battlefield. Using the moaning, shuffling dead to obscure their actions, these groups are able to sneak around the battlefield preparing to strike at targets that are distracted by the zombies. When targeting units in the shooting phase, the opponent of the zombies must use the nightfighting rules when firing at non-vehicle units that do not possess the shambling rule if there is a shambling unit closer to them then their target. Obliterators count as possessing shambling just for the sake of this rule.

Zombie Hunters: Some groups become experienced at combating zombies after learning of their behavior and vulnerabilities on the battlefield. The army opposing the zombie horde may purchase the zombie hunter upgrade. Any unit from the troop selection may be upgraded to zombie hunters at a cost of 30 points. Independent characters may purchase this ability at 10 points. This gives them the rendering rule when combating the zombies in both their shooting and combat attacks and causes a troop unit to become an elite chose.

With regards to the ballistic zombies, I would say a balance could be achieved by allowing for rules that make them akin to goblin fanatics where it is just as likely they blow themselves up, as they are to pop a tank, or even to take a few of their undead friends with them. Then, having a heavy weapon for every five tough-to-rekill zombies may not seem "too" imbalanced. Though reading all of this discussion about armor is making me think of the current situation between the Tyranid and Space Marines where, in all honesty, even armored transports present a problem. If beastly non-beasties with razor sharp claws and talons can't crack a hull, than the undead shouldn't be able to with "the claw" or by gnawing on the hull with their rotten teeth. But that explains why ballistic zombies are a good idea, and why Tyranid infantry need better "special weapons" options than a giant and evil fishnet.

I don't think the regular zombies should have two attacks. Zombies are supposed to be slow and stupid.

Eldar Own wrote:I don't think the regular zombies should have two attacks. Zombies are supposed to be slow and stupid.

Grunt's zombies aren't... they're supposed to be strong zombies.

I like the idea of zombie hunter units.

How smart is the horde? Is it capable of maintaining more "upper" tech weapons like lascannons and the like. It sounds pretty nice to have the 1 in 5 (or 4) chance to pick up some random gear and weapons. You know, things that the undead were carrying, or maybe the carrion lord told them to carry after they ran through a militia arsenal or what not. Maybe random flak jackets and las pistols, shotguns, bolt guns, bolt pistols
(Looks like they didn't have to pry commissar virens bolt pistol from his cold dead hands as he had expected, wink,wink!)

the only problem would be the random part, seems a little bit of a pain to roll 4 times for each squad, might be better to do a points armory where out of the 4 or 5 people in the squad that can select weapons, they can select only one choice. i just don't know...its the random part that's getting me but its such a cool idea.

I think that the fact that zombies can operate Leman Russes, have better stats and cheaper weapons than Guardsmen, and have an endless supply of troops, makes this quite OP. I would much rather play games with just zombies: Nothing else, and see how many turns you can survive.

TheMostSlyFox wrote:I think that the fact that zombies can operate Leman Russes, have better stats and cheaper weapons than Guardsmen, and have an endless supply of troops, makes this quite OP. I would much rather play games with just zombies: Nothing else, and see how many turns you can survive.

The weapons are the same price as the guardsman (or the LatD in cases of the ghoulies/traitor guard and acolytes/blood pack) and the Dead Gunners fire them with a ballistic skill of two, the zombies also have the offensive capability of an imperial guardsman equipped with two pointy sticks making them one of the weakest assault units in the game. There is nothing OP about having leman russes, if there was then the imperial guard would be OP. In the fourth edition tyranid codex termagaunts could purchase Without Number. In comparison my zombies lack ballistics, have shambling, and are subjected to rage. When the termagaunts returned to the table they were able to move in an unrestricted manner, fire their weaponry, or fleet. My zombies come back without any upgrades and firearms, are slow moving, and might end up chasing around an enemy skimmer for the rest of the game due to rage - I think you are over exaggerating their endless swarm ability.