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penek wrote:Wyches now kinda bad as MSU, because their weapons now come 1 for each five. But this is my imho)
ps. any one tested new DE with MSU on venoms instead of raiders and with VRB instead of ravagers?

Small Wych units in Venoms?
Why not small Warrior squads (incl. blaster) in Venoms (2 splinter cannons).
This combo is dual purpose: anti-tank and anti-infantry.

I think 1 blaster are too little for anti-tank

penek wrote:I think 1 blaster are too little for anti-tank

Its like a melta in a Tactical squad.

Melta in tactical a lot more scary as its rolls 2d6 in short range, and have AP1

Its like a melta in a Tactical squad.

It's like in that it is a small, cheap unit with AT firepower. It's unlike in that it will take 2-3 of those units to reliably damage many vehicles. 1 shot = 4/9 pen vs AV10, 1/3 pen vs AV11, 2/9 pen vs AV12. 1/9 chance to glance any of those values. So potential damage would be:

AV10: 5/9
AV11: 4/9
AV12: 3/9

Compare that against a melta, especially at cost. At 6-12", they're equal against the three values mentioned.

any one tested new DE with MSU on venoms instead of raiders and with VRB instead of ravagers?

A bit. It's really interesting. But I played against a hybrid ork army and a nid list, where the list build was pretty much in it's best case scenario. I'm curious to see how it handles more mech lists.

I would like to point out that you mention turbo-boosting your Raiders full of Incubi so you can get into CC the next turn. If the Radier is wrecked, your whole unit of Incubi go with it if you perform a "flat-out" move the previous turn. (Turbo-boosters are special type of "flat-out" move that fast skimmers have.) And since Raiders are paper, you can expect a crapload of shots into it. Would suck pretty bad to have 8 Incubi, a Klaivex, and a decked out Archon just dying like that.

Kurce wrote:I would like to point out that you mention turbo-boosting your Raiders full of Incubi so you can get into CC the next turn. If the Radier is wrecked, your whole unit of Incubi go with it if you perform a "flat-out" move the previous turn. (Turbo-boosters are special type of "flat-out" move that fast skimmers have.) And since Raiders are paper, you can expect a crapload of shots into it. Would suck pretty bad to have 8 Incubi, a Klaivex, and a decked out Archon just dying like that.

Recheck that rule. The group inside are only automatically destroyed if the vehicle is wrecked/exploded during the same player turn as it went flat out. There's a clause at the beginning of the BRB that states that, unless otherwise specified, "turn" means "player turn." If the Raider is shot and destroyed in the following player's turn, then the normal sequence for a wrecked transport and it's passengers will apply.

Units in transports which get destroyed after going flat out are only destroyed if the transport is wrecked in their OWN turn. The rulebook states that unless specified, any references to 'turn' mean player turn, so the only way this can happen is if you land in terrain and immobilise (and therefore wreck) yourself, if you ram something and kill youself, get killed by Death or Glory or have friendly fire scatter on to you.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

Its like a melta in a Tactical squad.

It's like in that it is a small, cheap unit with AT firepower. It's unlike in that it will take 2-3 of those units to reliably damage many vehicles. 1 shot = 4/9 pen vs AV10, 1/3 pen vs AV11, 2/9 pen vs AV12. 1/9 chance to glance any of those values. So potential damage would be:

AV10: 5/9
AV11: 4/9
AV12: 3/9

Compare that against a melta, especially at cost. At 6-12", they're equal against the three values mentioned.

I like how you only look at only one, tiny slice of the whole puzzle. First of all, most tactical squads toting a melta gun that I see usually have two, the second in the form of a combi-melta. Granted, the warrior squad can sort of accomplish the same thing with a blast pistol, but it's more expensive (as is the blaster vs the melta).

To get two shots means you'll probably need to hop out of the vehicle, which marines will survive much better. Warriors can stay on board their raider and shoot on blaster pretty easily, but will have a hard time getting into blast pistol range with the raider limited to 6" of movement.

Most important, though, is the AP1 bonus to damage and the great armor penetration at close range that will actually give you a good chance of killing something.

The two units may look similar, but the small DE squad isn't nearly as effective. I don't think we'll see a lot of successful DE armies focusing on MSU warrior squads with a blaster for AT. In fact, I think we'll see wyches become the most common mounted troop choice by far.

Voidravens are too expensive in anything smaller than a 2500 point game imo. Once it pops its four missiles it has less than a normal Ravager does, and is just as easy to pop. Like dashofpepper said, why waste points?

I've seen Venom MSU spam lists, but I personally dislike them; I seem to have the misfortune of always getting Annihilation games, and conserving KP is already an uphill battle for DE.

Personally, I've been won over by Hellions. Combo'd with the Baron and the Duke makes them exceedingly nasty. A friend I play runs Tau, meaning that I'm usually the scared one, being new and having a gun that can cover the table popping my armor. After testing Hellions, he was scared.

Void Ravens and Razorwings have the only 48" range weaponry in the codex (even if it is one use) and is the best option available for dealing with fire support units in the backfield (Long Fangs, Devestators etc). Its actually roughly the same damage wise as the Ravanger, the S9 lances make up for the loss of the third weapon. Also while still not hard to kill, AV11 and not being open topped does make it a bit harder to kill than the Ravanger. Throw in the Void Mine and the ability to move 36" then its definitely worth the points over the Ravanger. Not every list is going to want or need them, but they certainly will have a place in some lists.

Sure DE are going to bleed KP like crazy, but they should also be killing things back just as fast.

The problem with Hellions is that you basically need the Baron otherwise they are terrible, you have to build a list around them which limits what you can do with the rest of your list.

I'll agree that compared to the other FA choices, Hellions don't make the grade for me. But, as troops with the Baron, they have been doing great in my army. I've been starting 2 units with Haemys for FnP, and the other with The Baron in cover. they work weel for me as I love fast armies, so I tend to combine my units shooting and cc, eat away at my opponents flank and gain Pain Tokens pretty quickly with my combined attacks. Here's what I'm running now.

Baron Sathonyx
3x Haemonculi w/ Liquifier Guns

5x Incubi(joined by a Haemonculus)
Raider w/Flickerfield

13x Hellions w/Helliarch, Stunclaw, PGL
13x Hellions w/Helliarch, Agonizer. PGL
13x Hellions w/Helliarch, Agonizer. PGL
5x Wracks w/ Liquifier Gun
Raider w/Flickerfield

5x Scourges w/2x Heat Lance
3x Reavers w/Blaster

Ravager w/Flickerfield, Night Shields
Ravager w/Flickerfield, Night Shields
Razorwing w/Flickerfield, Night Shields, 2x Disentigrator Cannons, Splinter Cannon, 2x Necrotoxin Misslies

@1850rop Wracks, Raider, and Necrotoxin Misslies
The Razorwing, tooled for Anti-Infantry is simply ridiculus,btw.

The two units may look similar, but the small DE squad isn't nearly as effective. I don't think we'll see a lot of successful DE armies focusing on MSU warrior squads with a blaster for AT. In fact, I think we'll see wyches become the most common mounted troop choice by far.

I may have been unclear. For the points, the melta squad is superior. For about 25 pts more, you get a more effective and reliable unit, even more so as the range goes under 6".

As to your latter point, I completely disagree. I think wracks will be the most common mounted troop choice. Wyches are more specialists that are great at blunting hammers for a round or 2, and they still struggle against the more powerful ones (hammernators, for example).

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:
As to your latter point, I completely disagree. I think wracks will be the most common mounted troop choice. Wyches are more specialists that are great at blunting hammers for a round or 2, and they still struggle against the more powerful ones (hammernators, for example).

I've always found it interesting that wyches have this reputation for "blunting hammers"...the 4++ save makes them more resilient to things like TH/SS terminators than most other units, but the wyches' damage output is so poor they usually lose regardless.

The nice thing about wyches is they slaughter GEQ troops pretty well, even in cover (wracks have minor issues lacking grenades, but still get the job done). Wyches don't do so well against tougher, MEQ squads, but neither squad does well against dedicated melee monster units. The big difference in my mind is that wyches can do about as well as wracks against most units, but with haywire grenades wyches are also a serious threat against vehicles, which wracks will never be. Most armies are pretty thoroughly mechanized, so a DE army with lots of wracks makes target prioritization for a mech commander much easier....kill the main AT threats first, then crush what remains without worry.