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Brother Ramses wrote:
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/69177.html

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/69177.html

I'm not sure which argument you're supporting with this? if you read the first three and a half lines and stop, then that would support the "she gets bonus attacks equal to the absolute difference"
If you read the whole post, he talks about what the phrase "the difference" is commonly used for.
"But that would lead to ugly equations that students would struggle to solve; so they pretend that when we say "the difference of a and b" we mean just a-b--in that order, even though if b were greater than a, the "difference" would be negative. "

So he argues both points and then says use your own judgement here
"Anyway, regardless of the usual rules in real life, for the sake of
problems in this course, your "thoughts" represent what they want you
to do."

So ?

I would like to add something here...

I played against Lilith yesterday and the fight was sooo weird...

I had 13 guardians with the avatar and he had wyches with lilith..

So here is my question... since lilith gets extra attack equal to the difference between her WS and the best that is in base contact she had quite a lot of attack (12)

My question is, when I get the pilein move at the end of the combat, can I move a guardian so that he is still in CC but not with lilith?

Can I move him toward other enemy with my 6" or since his already in base contact he dont get to move?

If he gets his pile in before me, then I can make it so she is in base contact with the avatar reducing considerabely her number of attack?

I have conflicting arguments for myself so...

Aginast: No he cant since hes already in CC

For: If im on a battle field and see her comming, ill do anything to get away from her without trying to get away from the combat itself... logically id be scared of her and let my big onld dude beside me get her, since im no match for her. (speaking as a poor little guardian)

Please tell me what you think?

Note the rule read like this:
Just like when defenders react to being assaulted, these models move up to 6" in an attempt to move in base contact with the enemy or, if not possible into a position in which they are engaged and will be able to fight. This follows the same rules as moving assaulting models, except that is not slowed...[skip a bit] Also a pile in move may not be used to contact enemy units that are not currently involved in the assault. When making pile-in moves, the players whose turn it is move first. if for some reason, his model's pile in move are insufficient to move into base contact with an enemy that was involved in that fight, the player must still move them as close as possible to such enemy. The opponent will then execute his own pile in moves, back into contact with the enemies they were fighting. While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot.

No mention of using this to move around but still being in base contact...

He cannot move while already btb. So remove the guardians closest to Lilith!

Thats no use, if I do this he gets a pile-in move and move her to another guardian...

I asked GW anyway so I'll let you know what they say, but im pretty sure its going to be just like you said.

Maybe they should change the rule so that the pile in move read as follow:

Make the smallest move possible to get in base contact with the closest enemy. Then removing those close to her would rob her of this since when they would be no one near her, she would only be allowed to move to my avatar instead of going around him and getting those far away guardians...

If I remember correctly in GW's new FAQ they stated that in assaults and pile ins you must make a lane for IC's to get into base contact with another enemy model if possible at all possible.

So in the above situation say 15 guardians and an Avatar vs say 9 Wyches and Lilith. Lilith is in base contact with only guardians and conversely Avatar is only in base with Wyches.

For the sake of argument say the following happens, the conclusion of the first round of combat results in 10 guardians and 4 Wyches deaths (including fearless saves.)

As the player removing models you would want to remove guardians directly around Lilith as to remove her from being in base to base contact with anything at that point so on the consolidation she must move into base to base with another model. Depending upon what he removed and what you removed it may force her to come into base w/ your Avatar, or it could still be she's in only base with guardians depending on the positioning.

I don't remember if in consolidating into an ongoing close combat if you still have to move to the closet model or not I would assume so but that's not always the case.

I just tought of something... The Avatar is a MC but not an IC and nowhere in the MC rules I saw that they can join unit.. so if Im not mistaken, then the two would not be counted together... He'd have to choose to see if he attacked my Avatar or my guardians.

Is that true or am I mistaken?

Lazypete wrote:I just tought of something... The Avatar is a MC but not an IC and nowhere in the MC rules I saw that they can join unit.. so if Im not mistaken, then the two would not be counted together... He'd have to choose to see if he attacked my Avatar or my guardians.

Is that true or am I mistaken?

You are sort of mistaken. Unattached single model units (MCs and Walkers spring to mind) are treated the same way in CC as an attached IC, since you're told to treat an IC in CC as a separate unit. So, there's no functional difference between the Avatar and Lelith. That being said, both you and he have to decide what unit (Avatar or Guardians; Lelith or Wyches) your attacks go against.

However, Lelith's rule says to take the difference based on her WS vs the model with the highest WS she is in contact with. That means that if she's in contact with the Avatar, she has to use his WS, even if she isn't directing any attacks at him.

(Of course, since the Avatar has a higher WS than her, you'll have to fight with your opponent to decide if Lelith gets +1, 0, or -1 bonus attacks. I recommend using pistols at 10 paces, or a roll-off if you're a wimp.)

Oh really... wow that makes quite a change to the way I play assault... ( I really need to get a few games in a hobby shop to try with many different players... and learn things I do wrong)

Can you tell me where this rule is written I'd like to read it.

Page 49, ICs in assault - says you treat them as a seperate unit.

Nos has it.

The rules for multiple units in assaults (or attached ICs in assaults) are rather complicated. I suggest you take some time and read through them very carefully. I've done this a half dozen times and each time I learn something new!

Thanx... I wonder how many flaw I play with like that lol.

If I interpret the rule correctly.. Since they have to move first and that I read in the errata that you can move other models first that are in the way to make sure they get in base contact.. that I could force lilith to be in base contact with my Avatar by moving other caracter out of the way and put him in base contact with Lelith?

The Avatar isnt an IC, so the rule about moving other models out of the way doesnt apply.

Ok so the Avatar is a MC which are treated as IC in close combat but not for everything?

No. It is a seperate unit, which an IC is treated as during close combat.

Lazypete wrote:Ok so the Avatar is a MC which are treated as IC in close combat but not for everything?

No, it IS a separate unit, at all times!

ICs, even when joined toa unit, dont count as being joined during combat

Okay so if Lelith charges my Guardian (and she's joined in a wyches unit), she can't get into 1" of my avatar because she's not assaulting him, so He can freely move around and decide to join the fight (on my turn that is) if he want to go away do something else... He can NEVER be a part of a unit because he's not an IC. (He just give them fearless hehe)

Morans wrote:And what about the not so rare time you face a Tyrant with Paroxism? Are you going to give her 8 bonus attacks?

While I doubt thats how it meant to work. So what if it is, you just change tactics and not use your Paroxism, would you Assualt a T8 guy with a S4 guy.

Lazypete wrote:Okay so if Lelith charges my Guardian (and she's joined in a wyches unit), she can't get into 1" of my avatar because she's not assaulting him, so He can freely move around and decide to join the fight (on my turn that is) if he want to go away do something else... He can NEVER be a part of a unit because he's not an IC. (He just give them fearless hehe)

Page 34 of BGB under Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units

The main target of the assault has to be your Guardians, for both Lelith and the Wyches. But, if your Avatar is positioned correctly, you opponent can assault both.

The first model from the Wyches+Lelith unit has to hit the Guardians, but every model after the first can hit whatever squad they want, as long as coherency is maintained.

Edit: To clarify, by the word "Hit", I meant "use your charge to get into BTB contact with", not "attack".

Ok I think I got it.

So if I recapitulate...

1. They assault my guardian, one model MUST get to a guardian first, then they can move any other models in contact with either my guardian and/or my Avatar
(as long as they dont break coherency)
2. Then I do some pile in moves.
3. Then each models would have to resolve its attack aginst the unit they are in base contact with. (or split their attack for those that are in base contact with both)


All this mean one thing... read the damn rules once a week and keep doing it until I know them all by heart.

Thanx to everyone for your MANY imputs lol.

Shrike325 wrote:To be fair, I don't see a huge problem with A, with the possibility being that she fights harder against something that is more skilled than she is... from a fluff standpoint.

I absolutely agree with this being a possibility.
Granted, if so, it could have been worded better.

Dok wrote:This reminds me a lot of word problems in third grade. Difference means subtract. Subtract what? The first and second numbers listed. the first number = leliths WS. The second number = the opponents WS as the description of the ability says. So you would get positive attacks while leliths skill is greater and zero attacks if the enemies WS was equal or greater since you can't have -1 bonus attacks.

This is not strictly true. Word problems do not always provide the numbers in order.

Although I would play it as extra attacks, regardless who has the higher WS, I do agree that this -as well as other gray areas- could have been EASILY rectified by lettin a non-GW group, like the Inat FAQ team, playtest it for rules consistency. That goes for all the codices.

Eric

Who's to say she doesn't up her game when fighting a superior opponent? (The few in the universe)