Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 21:40:01
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Sneaky Kommando
|
Another thing about american tanks is that they were and still are modular. This is different from being mass-produced in the fact that mass-produced tanks can be taken out and unsalvageable. If two Shermans were damaged in the field then they could easily be combined to make one whole tank, this couldn't be done with Tigers or Russian tanks or even some british tanks at the time. Then again, the british and canadians also used Shermans.
You can do the same thing with Tigers, Panzer IV, Panzer III, Panther, and any other german OR russian vehicle.
Tanks have interchangeable parts, other wise the German tank would have broken down and never gotten fixed.
And I do apologize for not an ass about the T54E1 track link.
|
Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 21:58:52
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Deff Jaw wrote:You can do the same thing with Tigers, Panzer IV, Panzer III, Panther, and any other german OR russian vehicle.
Tanks have interchangeable parts, other wise the German tank would have broken down and never gotten fixed.
The point was that tanks were shipped back to the factory rather than repaired in the field. Soviet and German Axis tanks were repaired in the field but not to the extent that Shermans were.
It's a critical thing for the Sherman because sending it back to the factory means sending it back across the Atlantic. A problem no other country had to overcome.
Deff Jaw wrote:And I do apologize for not an ass about the T54E1 track link.
Good man.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 22:03:00
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
|
I wouldn't give Shermans a total ragging, have you seen what Israeli's did with them when they tossed in a 105mm cannon?
|
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 22:16:53
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
BrookM wrote:I wouldn't give Shermans a total ragging, have you seen what Israeli's did with them when they tossed in a 105mm cannon?
The US were doing this in 1944.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 22:34:55
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
|
Hmm, forgot about that one. My bad!
|
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 23:00:17
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
Sneaky Kommando
|
Germans only sent vehicle back to the factory if they needed to be rebuilt. For instance a Ferdinand being converted to an Elephant. Also remember this Sherman broke down AS much as German Tanks. It does help when your shipment of spare parts are not blown to bits by planes.
|
Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/06 23:18:51
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
I know that Tigers hulls were sent back to a factory to be rebuilt. There's a plug built into the bottom hull to facilitate removing the remains of the internals so that it could be rebuilt. This could not be done in the field.
This may be comparing apples to oranges though as a Sherman with the same amount of damage may have been simply written off. Also the Shermans propensity to 'brew up' would have skewed the figures for Shermans recovered from battle damage as opposed to mechanical failure, which could often be fixed with parts from other vehicles such as trucks. The Germans had nowhere near the same level of part compatibility on their tanks as the Sherman had.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 00:23:19
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed.
The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 03:28:47
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Frazzled wrote:Where Germany's tanks evolved (and grew even more complicated), the Allies tried tweeking Shermans but kept the basic chassis the same, and made 8 bazillion of them.
They definitely should have upgunned it though more quickly to a 76mm or 90mm version. Its criminal that it wasn't.
The problem was the small turret space of the Sherman in the original design. It wasn't like the T-34, where there was naturally enough space to put a bigger a turret and gun in there.
Wiki says they ran into a company of Tigers in Tunisia in 1942. I wonder if the Russians were feeding them reports on Tigers/panthers from the Eastern front and if so, was that being discounted. I'd think if you started get reports of bigger tanks, you'd start accounting for that.
There were Tigers in Africa, yeah, and the Allies had really trouble taking them out. But, like Tigers everywhere, there weren't enough because they were so stupidly resource intensive to produce. Nor could the Tiger capitalise on their dominance, because their operational range was so poor.
Plus as noted, absent bad weather days the allies absolutely controlled the air and could sick fighter bombers all over nay German tank concentrations. Again, you can have super duper tank but its irrelevant if a thunderbolt just dropped some 500 lb bombs on it.
Yeah. Very much so.
|
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 12:07:12
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
halonachos wrote:Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed.
The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
Its not tank specific. Its a philosphy difference. Most of the German gear then (and probably now  is over engineered, vs. US comparables.
As an example: the firing mechanism on a German artillery piece had on the order of 50 components, whereas the US version had 9 (from memory so numbers may be slightly off). Not only does it mean things are much more liable to break down, but it severaly impacts the inital manufacturing and assembly time.
Its like the inverse of the AK47 / M16 debate. Sure the M16 is more accurate, but the AK47 doesn't break down and DA RED MENACE can make 10 - 20 for every M16.
We've become the Germans! (sudden urge to lead a column of troops down the Champs Lysee...)
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 12:55:01
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Preacher of the Emperor
|
The Allies knew about the heavier German tanks, they just assumed that they were going to be rare and the PzIII and PzIV would be their primary opponents. Also, American tank doctrine didn't have the Sherman in charge of busting enemy tanks, it was supposed to be killing infantry, shooting up artillery, and running amok in the Germans rear area. The job of killing tanks was supposed to be done by American tank destroyers.
So they had very good reasons for not upgunning the Sherman. Now there were plenty of good ones for doing it but given the information that they had to work with at the time the decision not to upgun it was logically sound. In hindsight it might have been wonderful if every Sherman was a Firefly but based off what they were doing, thinking, and knew at the time it didn't make a lot of sense.
|
mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 14:03:35
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Frazzled wrote:halonachos wrote:Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed.
The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
Its not tank specific. Its a philosphy difference. Most of the German gear then (and probably now  is over engineered, vs. US comparables.
As an example: the firing mechanism on a German artillery piece had on the order of 50 components, whereas the US version had 9 (from memory so numbers may be slightly off). Not only does it mean things are much more liable to break down, but it severaly impacts the inital manufacturing and assembly time.
Its like the inverse of the AK47 / M16 debate. Sure the M16 is more accurate, but the AK47 doesn't break down and DA RED MENACE can make 10 - 20 for every M16.
We've become the Germans! (sudden urge to lead a column of troops down the Champs Lysee...)
Does this meen we get to invade France? If so I'm all in!
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 22:19:34
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
|
Catyrpelius wrote:Frazzled wrote:halonachos wrote:Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed.
The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
Its not tank specific. Its a philosphy difference. Most of the German gear then (and probably now  is over engineered, vs. US comparables.
As an example: the firing mechanism on a German artillery piece had on the order of 50 components, whereas the US version had 9 (from memory so numbers may be slightly off). Not only does it mean things are much more liable to break down, but it severaly impacts the inital manufacturing and assembly time.
Its like the inverse of the AK47 / M16 debate. Sure the M16 is more accurate, but the AK47 doesn't break down and DA RED MENACE can make 10 - 20 for every M16.
We've become the Germans! (sudden urge to lead a column of troops down the Champs Lysee...)
Does this meen we get to invade France? If so I'm all in!
I wouldn't bother it is filled with French people.
|
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 22:23:51
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
notprop wrote:Catyrpelius wrote:Frazzled wrote:halonachos wrote:Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed.
The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
Its not tank specific. Its a philosphy difference. Most of the German gear then (and probably now  is over engineered, vs. US comparables.
As an example: the firing mechanism on a German artillery piece had on the order of 50 components, whereas the US version had 9 (from memory so numbers may be slightly off). Not only does it mean things are much more liable to break down, but it severaly impacts the inital manufacturing and assembly time.
Its like the inverse of the AK47 / M16 debate. Sure the M16 is more accurate, but the AK47 doesn't break down and DA RED MENACE can make 10 - 20 for every M16.
We've become the Germans! (sudden urge to lead a column of troops down the Champs Lysee...)
Does this meen we get to invade France? If so I'm all in!
I wouldn't bother it is filled with French people.
Yes but its also filled with French women.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/07 22:24:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/07 22:34:57
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
|
George Spiggott wrote:And the Germans were behind the Soviets for quite some time.
The Sherman was comparable or better to everything it encountered until it got to Italy.
The Sherman was also better than anything the Japanese ever had.
People tend to forget that the German tank fleet consisted of lots of Panzer 2 and 3, and Pz.38 (?) the Czech tank) until the Pz 4 got uprated. The Pz.III was a pretty good design, but it was outclassed by the T34.
In the late 30s, when the Soviets and Germans were cooperating, the Soviets were invited to see a demo of armoured vehicles. A fleet of Pz.1 and 2 rolled past, then the Soviets said (in a polite way) "Ha ha! Very impressive. Now please show us the real tanks."
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/08 00:03:16
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Kilkrazy wrote:George Spiggott wrote:And the Germans were behind the Soviets for quite some time.
The Sherman was comparable or better to everything it encountered until it got to Italy.
The Sherman was also better than anything the Japanese ever had.
People tend to forget that the German tank fleet consisted of lots of Panzer 2 and 3, and Pz.38 (?) the Czech tank) until the Pz 4 got uprated. The Pz.III was a pretty good design, but it was outclassed by the T34.
In the late 30s, when the Soviets and Germans were cooperating, the Soviets were invited to see a demo of armoured vehicles. A fleet of Pz.1 and 2 rolled past, then the Soviets said (in a polite way) "Ha ha! Very impressive. Now please show us the real tanks."
People also tend to forget that when the Germans had their greatest successes when they were dependant on those subpar tanks. The French and the British both had superior tanks to the Mk II & III. The Russian tanks completely outclassed the German tanks in the early stages of Barbarossa, but the Germans utterly dominated.
By the time you see Tigers and Panthers in the field, the only successful German offensives were counterpunches that merely slowed the tide of defeat. Now, that defeat wasn't due to piling resources into highly engineered supertanks, but it is fair to say that having the tanks that are superior in combat in a one on one capacity doesn't seem to be all that decisive a factor in war.
|
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/08 02:27:33
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
Hauptmann
Diligently behind a rifle...
|
The early successes in 1940-1941 for Germany were due tio the way they used their tanks. France and the BEF used their tanks like they did in WWI, one or two attached to a company of infantry. This allowed them to be out manuevered by the Panzer Divisions and Panzergrenadiers, they wound up encircled and cut off from fuel. Not a smart way to counter even weak armor.
|
Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away
1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action
"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."
"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"
Res Ipsa Loquitor |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/08 04:24:08
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Stormrider wrote:The early successes in 1940-1941 for Germany were due tio the way they used their tanks. France and the BEF used their tanks like they did in WWI, one or two attached to a company of infantry. This allowed them to be out manuevered by the Panzer Divisions and Panzergrenadiers, they wound up encircled and cut off from fuel. Not a smart way to counter even weak armor.
Absolutely, the Germans focused on mobility and more or less stumbled upon operational warfare as a result. Which goes to show what matters is how you use tanks, and how they fit into your overall method of war, not whether your tank has more armour than some other country's.
Point being, the Sherman was no match for the Panther, but I'd sooner have the American war machine than the German, any day.
|
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/08 04:41:07
Subject: Re:M4 Sherman
|
 |
Hauptmann
Diligently behind a rifle...
|
sebster wrote:Stormrider wrote:The early successes in 1940-1941 for Germany were due tio the way they used their tanks. France and the BEF used their tanks like they did in WWI, one or two attached to a company of infantry. This allowed them to be out manuevered by the Panzer Divisions and Panzergrenadiers, they wound up encircled and cut off from fuel. Not a smart way to counter even weak armor.
Absolutely, the Germans focused on mobility and more or less stumbled upon operational warfare as a result. Which goes to show what matters is how you use tanks, and how they fit into your overall method of war, not whether your tank has more armour than some other country's.
Point being, the Sherman was no match for the Panther, but I'd sooner have the American war machine than the German, any day.
Yep, I read Albert Speer's diary he wrote while in Spandau, prior to his ascension to Armaments Minister in 1942, the Germans were only manufacturing during 1 8 hour shift, and they were still making strictly civilian products too. That economy was horribly bungled by a loon (Rudolf Hess) that had never run anything in his life.
Guderian's plan of mobile warfare at it's finest in Western Europe. Of cousre those easy wins over the Low Countries and Denmark/Norway gave Hitler an almost un-realistic view of his army as invincible. Those were lay-ups, hell even Poland put up more of a fight.
|
Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away
1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action
"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."
"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"
Res Ipsa Loquitor |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/18 19:21:10
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Sneaky Kommando
|
Frazzled wrote:notprop wrote:Catyrpelius wrote:Frazzled wrote:halonachos wrote:Precisely, the breech devices in a tiger had 50+ parts and if one broke they were screwed. The Sherman had around 7 parts that could be easily taken out of another knocked out Sherman. There's a difference there.
Its not tank specific. Its a philosphy difference. Most of the German gear then (and probably now  is over engineered, vs. US comparables. As an example: the firing mechanism on a German artillery piece had on the order of 50 components, whereas the US version had 9 (from memory so numbers may be slightly off). Not only does it mean things are much more liable to break down, but it severaly impacts the inital manufacturing and assembly time. Its like the inverse of the AK47 / M16 debate. Sure the M16 is more accurate, but the AK47 doesn't break down and DA RED MENACE can make 10 - 20 for every M16. We've become the Germans! (sudden urge to lead a column of troops down the Champs Lysee...) Does this meen we get to invade France? If so I'm all in! I wouldn't bother it is filled with French people.
Yes but its also filled with French women. I have a quote from the book "Deathtraps" "French Women are lazy and are dirty, belgian women are the same way, German women are hardworkers, clean, and displined." Now DONT invade france they us hate already. (thanks Obama)
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/19 06:41:14
Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/18 19:26:51
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Kilkrazy wrote:The Sherman was also better than anything the Japanese ever had.
So was the Lee.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/20 04:44:55
Subject: M4 Sherman
|
 |
Sneaky Kommando
|
George Spiggott wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:The Sherman was also better than anything the Japanese ever had.
So was the Lee.
So was the flame tanks.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FIRE!!!!
|
Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Anything you do can get you shot. Including doing nothing. |
|
 |
 |
|