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mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Second the jump pack is just an additional equipment that grant them extra movements during the movement phrase and another during combat phrase. What are they at the end of the day.....still infantry with a rockect attach to their backs.

That is an invalid argument because not all Jump Infantry have jump packs.

One example are Vespid, who are Jump Infantry, but do not have jump packs in their wargear,

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:ask yourself this question, If there was a magical force in the 40k world states that "all Bolters" are effect by some magical power, would it affect all types of bolter in 40k? yes it would.

Really? What's a bolter? There is no such thing.

But, since you mention it, Sternguard have a special rule that affects "boltguns". It does not affect storm bolters, heavy bolters, bolt pistols because these are all different things.

Guard have a special rule that affects "lasguns". It does not affect "hot-shot lasguns".

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:ask yourself this question, If there was a magical force in the 40k world states that "all Bolters" are effect by some magical power, would it affect all types of bolter in 40k? yes it would.
.

Lysanders Bolter drill is a fine example of this. It does not state "All bolters" reroll to hit and to wound. It says "All, Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, and Heavy Bolters" reroll to hit and wound. Any bolt type weapons that are not listed are not effected (if infantry could wield hurricane bolters for example)

Lysanders Bolter drill is a fine example of this. It does not state "All bolters" reroll to hit and to wound. It says "All, Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, and Heavy Bolters" reroll to hit and wound. Any bolt type weapons that are not listed are not effected (if infantry could wield hurricane bolters for example)

Hurricane Bolters are already covered, because in the rules it specifically says that Hurricane Bolters are Bolters.

And, yes, Jump Infantry are affected by Jaws Of The World Wolf.

It specifically says in the BRB that they follow all rules for infantry and are treated as such, but they can move 12" and are relentless.

I just checked the BRB p52 which says all the rules concerning Jump Infantry and I can't find anything that says that they are treated as infantry except they can move 12" and are relentless. Please show me where you got your information.

I would love relentless assault marines

grayspark wrote:
And, yes, Jump Infantry are affected by Jaws Of The World Wolf.

It specifically says in the BRB that they follow all rules for infantry and are treated as such, but they can move 12" and are relentless.

this is not what the BRB says. the only thing it says is that they "may move like normal infantry." Please give the specific page and section that you are referencing.

I'd say no. Because it doesn't say Jump infantry. And Jump Infantry are a different unit type than Infantry. Admittedly the difference is petty but them's the rules.

Then argue this, what happen when you add it as a wear gear.....Hive Tyrant, Wolf lords/Wolf guard battle leader, or anything with a wing.....JOTWW with affect them right. Just because you added a jump pack on a troop doesn't mean that you change them completely. All Jump Infantry use the same rules as the Infantry in evey phrase of the game. Therefore JOWTT stated any model.......not unit types are affected, remember the word model.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Then argue this, what happen when you add it as a wear gear.....Hive Tyrant, Wolf lords/Wolf guard battle leader, or anything with a wing.....JOTWW with affect them right. Just because you added a jump pack on a troop doesn't mean that you change them completely. All Jump Infantry use the same rules as the Infantry in evey phrase of the game. Therefore JOWTT stated any model.......not unit types are affected, remember the word model.

Again showing you are bad with rules.

Pg. 84 of the Tyranid codex, on the biomorph upgrade of Wings:

"Models equipped with Wings move in the same way as jump infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook."

In no way does it say that the units type is changed to Jump Infantry, it says that you move AS IF you were jump infantry.They themselves are not changed, so that arguement is invalid.

Also, on your point of all JI having Jetpacks: Hellions? That is an incredibly bad overgeneralization.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Then argue this, what happen when you add it as a wear gear.....Hive Tyrant, Wolf lords/Wolf guard battle leader, or anything with a wing.....JOTWW with affect them right. Just because you added a jump pack on a troop doesn't mean that you change them completely. All Jump Infantry use the same rules as the Infantry in evey phrase of the game. Therefore JOWTT stated any model.......not unit types are affected, remember the word model.

You have noticed that the codex defines units as infantry/jump infantry (as appropriate) in the unit's listing haven't you? Therefore, there is a difference between the designations. As to changing the model's designation you would have to check each codex's entry as to whether it changes or not.

Hive tyrant: Affected by Jaws, because the wings do not make it Jump infantry; it remains a MC the moves like jump infantry.

Chaplain, Wolf lord, Any Marine IC that can take a jump pack: not affected by Jaws, because the jump pack rules tell us that models equipped with it become Jump infantry.

Chaos marines depend if they are given daemonic Wings or a jump pack, Wing are the same as Hive tyrnat, Jump pack the same as loyalist jump packs.

Melchiour wrote:

grayspark wrote:
And, yes, Jump Infantry are affected by Jaws Of The World Wolf.

It specifically says in the BRB that they follow all rules for infantry and are treated as such, but they can move 12" and are relentless.

this is not what the BRB says. the only thing it says is that they "may move like normal infantry." Please give the specific page and section that you are referencing.

Sorry, I was thinking of "Jet Packs" and not Jump Infantry as a whole.

Even then you are wrong.

Besides of course the fact that jump Infantry/ Jetpack infantry are not regular infantry; Jet pack do not move 12".

Never expected this thread to go on so long.

If one looks at the list of unit types on pages 4 and 5 of the rulebook, Jump Infantry and Infantry are clearly listed as distinct and separate categories, just as Monstrous Creatures and Infantry are. The fact that Jump Infantry has the word "infantry" in the name doesn't change that.

If one reads the first two paragraphs on page 51; it list out all the different unit types, and says that "except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry." Does that make you think that Bikes are the same thing as Infantry? I think it makes clear that Monstrous Creatures, Jump Infantry, Bikes/Jetbikes, Beasts & Cavalry, and Artillery are all distinct unit types which refer back to the same main rules for most purposes.

GW specifically gives a list of unit types which are affected in the description of the JotWW power. And Jump Infantry are not on that list.

Mannahnin wrote:Never expected this thread to go on so long.

I agree with this. It feels like some are arguing just for the sake of arguing. The rules for how Jump Infantry are not Infantry have been given a number of times, along with page reference. There have been no rules or page numbers given stating that Jump Infantry are Infantry, just conjecture based on the word infantry.

The other thing to consider about the concept that "Jump Infantry" equals "Infantry" is the fact that if this was the case it would be categorically impossible for GW to write rules for the unit type 'Infantry' without it also applying to 'Jump Infantry' unless they always specified something like 'This rule applies to Infantry, but not including Jump infantry'.

Can you see how ludicrous that is? They've created different unit types and there should be *some* way for them to write rules for 'Infantry' and Infantry alone, correct?

The idea that 'Jump Infantry' means the same thing as 'Infantry' just because the word 'Infantry' is common in both names is ridiculous. They are two different unit types in the game and more importantly (as I already pointed out), the rules for JotWW specifically list all the different affected unit types. If they wanted JotWW to affect all non-vehicle models, why would they bother listing every different unit type but then strangely forget to include Jump Infantry when things like 'Beasts' and 'Cavalry' are even listed separately?

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:JOWW does effect anything that the line goes though, expect for vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Footsloggin wrote:It DOES NOT. This has come up before, and the consensus was that it did not.

Just because the word "jump" is in front of the name does not exculde from the rules of Infanty. They are still infanty, just with jumppack on them.

Yet they list the rules for them in different parts of the codex?

But not stuff that moves as jump infantry! BYE BYE FATEWEAVER AND DEMON PRINCES!

MBS - if it said "All Bolters are affected...." then it would NOT affect Heavy, Storm or Vulcan MEga Bolters.

Because they are different names

Jump Infantry is a different NAME to Infantry. You cannot, if you understand English, break it down and pretend they are Infantry.

In short: No, JotWW does NOT affect Jump Infantry. and if Bolter Beach ruled that it did, their judges need to brush up on Unit Types and the differences between them.

I would still have to disagree, and I'm not arguing just becuase i'm aruging. Now how many of ya'll serviced in your country Army? Now I serviced for nearly ten years and retired. IF anyone here knows what a 19D, you know what i did in the Army. This would play major issue with me, first all the following MOS in the Army are lableled Combat MOS and are part of Infantry 11B, and 11C, 18F are all have the titled Infantry, and the fact that they are the only ones that can get a C.I.B Comabt Infantryman Badge. 11b Infantry, 11C mortars and subtitled Infantry. Now compaired to a game, there isnt, but since the word Infantry appears on the Jump Infantry, they fall under Infantry. If GW wants to make it clear, get rid of the infantry part of the name. This is the problem with the rules, you read one and you get several different answers.

My thanks to Ulver who posted this in another thread:

I just so happened to have a read of the topic at the top of YMDC, and there was this little gem in it:


Lorek wrote:
These are some of the basic tenets of You Make Da Call. Some of them clarify the Dakka Rules and some of them are guidelines to ensure relatively smooth rules discussions. If you find someone going against these tenets, feel free to refer them to this post. The Moderation Staff will also use these as moderation guidelines in this forum.

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it. (emphasis added by me.)

Jump infantry aren't infantry for the same reason heavy bolters aren't bolters and hot-shot lasguns aren't lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, it makes pefect sense for people with jump packs to be immune to an attack that works by making them fall into a huge pit.

In this case, the fluff backs up the RAW.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I would still have to disagree, and I'm not arguing just becuase i'm aruging. Now how many of ya'll serviced in your country Army? Now I serviced for nearly ten years and retired. IF anyone here knows what a 19D, you know what i did in the Army. This would play major issue with me, first all the following MOS in the Army are lableled Combat MOS and are part of Infantry 11B, and 11C, 18F are all have the titled Infantry, and the fact that they are the only ones that can get a C.I.B Comabt Infantryman Badge. 11b Infantry, 11C mortars and subtitled Infantry. Now compaired to a game, there isnt, but since the word Infantry appears on the Jump Infantry, they fall under Infantry. If GW wants to make it clear, get rid of the infantry part of the name. This is the problem with the rules, you read one and you get several different answers.

You are not providing valid arguments. Simply using word associations with titles of stuff is not how the rules work. The BRB has a clear format on how its rules are put into play. For example, an Assault Cannon is NOT an assault weapon - it is a heavy 4 rending weapon listing in its profile. By your argument of word association, it would be an assault weapon because it has the word "assault" in its name. Same goes for a Heavy Flamer being an assault weapon, not a Heavy weapon.

Another way the BRB lays out its rules is listing unit types. Page 4 and page 51 clearly categorize units into seperate "Unit types", Infantry, Monsterous creatures, bikes and jetbikes, beasts, cavalry, artillery, vehicles, and jump infantry. Yes, we get it - Jump Infantry has the word infantry in it. You have still failed to produce any page reference or FAQ article that states Jump Infantry fall under the Infantry category of unit. Until you do, please stop arguing the same thing over and over.

Once again, the Blood Angles Codex....is the reason, why and always JOTWW will affect Jump Infantry. Once the the BA Assualt Marines can remove their jump pack, therfore they are still Infnatry base and always will be affected by JOTWW. What the arugement here are ya'lls going still agure with me about unit types and the name. And what about the Jump Pack AM that doesn;t have jump packs and JOTWW hit them.......ahhh no Jump pack

What's your point?

An assault squad is Jump Infantry and is not affected by JOTWW.
When they remove their jump packs they count as Infantry (as per the BA codex) and will be affected by JOTWW.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Once again, the Blood Angles Codex....is the reason, why and always JOTWW will affect Jump Infantry. Once the the BA Assualt Marines can remove their jump pack, therfore they are still Infnatry base and always will be affected by JOTWW. What the arugement here are ya'lls going still agure with me about unit types and the name. And what about the Jump Pack AM that doesn;t have jump packs and JOTWW hit them.......ahhh no Jump pack

I'm starting to think you're just arguing for the sake of argument! The Blood Angels codex clearly states that Jump Infantry Assault marines that remove their Jump Packs count as Infantry. So by removing the Jump Pack they change from Jump Infantry to Infantry.

Have you looked at the rules for unit types in the rulebook? Jump Infantry are NOT infantry...not even a sub-category. They are an entirely different unit type like vehicles are to bikes (for example). You're trying to argue that it is IMPOSSIBLE for GW to write rules for just the unit type 'Infantry' because it would then always also apply to 'Jump Infantry'...does that sound like a sensible argument?

And again, nobody's trying to say that in the 'fluff' that 'Jump Infantry' aren't a form of 'infantry' but in GAME terms (what matters) you have several different unit types each with a specific name and those unit types are distinct. When the rules bother to list a bunch of unit types that are affected and one is left off that list, it is clearly MEANT to not be affected!

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I would still have to disagree, and I'm not arguing just becuase i'm aruging. Now how many of ya'll serviced in your country Army? Now I serviced for nearly ten years and retired. IF anyone here knows what a 19D, you know what i did in the Army. This would play major issue with me, first all the following MOS in the Army are lableled Combat MOS and are part of Infantry 11B, and 11C, 18F are all have the titled Infantry, and the fact that they are the only ones that can get a C.I.B Comabt Infantryman Badge. 11b Infantry, 11C mortars and subtitled Infantry. Now compaired to a game, there isnt, but since the word Infantry appears on the Jump Infantry, they fall under Infantry. If GW wants to make it clear, get rid of the infantry part of the name. This is the problem with the rules, you read one and you get several different answers.

What does how the US Army decides who to issue a CIB to have to do with the rules for 40K?

Look at P4 & 5. Is there anything there to suggest that Jump Infantry is a subset of Infantry? No.
Look at Jump Infantry on P52. Is there anything there to suggest that Jump Infantry is a subset of Infantry? No.

If we follow your idea that jump infantry are also infantry then we create all sorts of problems. Not least of which is that jump infantry would be allowed to embark on transports...

You haven't replied to any of the points I raised earlier. Do you feel that rules affecting "Lasguns" should also affect "Hot-shot Lasguns"? The rules say not.

Nope. Jump Infantry is different than infantry. THink about it- it actually says, I believe, either in the dex or in the FAQ- that it does not effect jump infantry. They'de just fly over it.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:it actually says, I believe, either in the dex or in the FAQ- that it does not effect jump infantry. They'de just fly over it.

Actually, it doesn't. Jump Infantry are only mentioned in that they are omitted from the list of targettable units. However, there is a different FAQ answer that is interesting:

Q. If the unit type that a Wolf Priest’s Oath of
War affects is declared to be Bikes, does the unit
gain the benefit against Jetbikes, and vice versa?
A. Yes, because Jetbikes is a subcategory of the
‘Bike’ unit type. Similarly, ‘Beasts & Cavalry’ are
the same unit type, and ‘Jet Packs’ are a
subcategory of the ‘Jump Infantry’ unit type. A
Wolf Priest that has sworn his oath against one
will still get the benefit of the oath against the
other.

MBS should note that it does not say that Jet Packs and Jump Infantry are a subset of Infantry.

I can't wait to place a squad of Jump infantry in a transport. Oh wait. They cannot embark because Jump Infantry are NOT infantry.

axeman1n wrote:I can't wait to place a squad of Jump infantry in a transport. Oh wait. They cannot embark because Jump Infantry are NOT infantry.

that why GW made a StormRaven for.