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FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it's not acid.

That would have been my second thought.
Acid was between $6 and $9dollars a hit when I was a teenager...and that was over 20 years ago.

Oh you and your dashing, handsome, youthful self those 20 years ago.

...As opposed to my current greying,wrinkling curmudgeonly self of today. ...*sigh*...Yesterday.

For what it's worth you look happy enough in your pic, and I can't see any greying hair under that hat of yours.

EDIT: In my crotchety age I appear to becoming senile and forgetting how to spell.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it's not acid.

That would have been my second thought.
Acid was between $6 and $9dollars a hit when I was a teenager...and that was over 20 years ago.

Oh you and your dashing, handsome, youthful self those 20 years ago.

...As opposed to my current greying,wrinkling curmudgeonly self of today. ...*sigh*...Yesterday.

For what it's worth you look happy enough in your pic, and I can't see any greying hair under that hat of yours.

EDIT: In my crotchety age I appear to becoming senile and forgetting how to spell.

... ...You do realize that that's not me in my avatar...or are you referring to another "happy" and another "hat"...lord ..now I'm confused...I should go watch the 700 club and smoke a blunt.

Phryxis wrote:

weed isn't exactly something that you suck dick on the corner for.

Maybe YOU don't.

But, the fundamental point is roughly the same... Weed is a "gateway drug?" Ok... And how many people who have done crack didn't first drink alcohol? How many didn't first smoke a cigarette?

I'm going to take a wild guess: 0. Or, to be as acurate as possible, 0.0000.

Why aren't cigarettes "gateway drugs?" Or alcohol?

Hell, we scarf down caffeine like it's nothing, but if you get a little too much of that crap in your system, it's a whole lot more pronounced of a physical effect than a LOT of prescription drugs. It's also highly addictive.

I'll stop now, lest I sound like one of those annoying college activists who think that repeating facts has anything to do with politics. Which, I guess, is what I was suggesting earlier that they should think.

Actually its because there are zero physical withdrawl side effects from cannabis. Less so than even tobbacco. The entire "gateway drug" angle is a sham that any class in addiction medicine will educate you on.


Saying that because you don't smoke ciggarettes you will not smoke crack is a very very ummm, not smart comment. Caffine is addictive, but its side effect profile for withdrawl is prety minimal...IE you don't suck dick on the corner for coffee. Drugs like heroin, meth, alcohol, and benzo's (xanax, librium, valium) all have side effects that can either kill you or make you wish you were dead. THAT is what drives people to sell their stuff, their bodies, their morals, etc in order to get the drug. Its not about the rush, its about not feeling sick at that point.

Decriminalization over legalization. If it were legalized, big companies would be all over it like a Fatkid on snickers. Who knows what kind of gak they'd add to it. Decriminalize it so you can grow 5 or 25 plants in your garden without being worried about going off to the klink.

Here, Weed is a type A narcotic and you go to jail for like 25 years for a gram. Before 1947, however, it was everywhere and people smoked it and it was no big deal. The occupation forces didn't want their dudes getting high, so they had the japanese turn over the weed they had for food and nylons and stuff. The slang term 'Chiba' comes from an area near Tokyo where weed grew, and grows, apparently. I found a male plant in a parking lot about 2 months ago. I would always go by and see if had turned hermaphroditic.lol

They drink like fish here. Where else can you buy a three litre bottle of Whiskey in a hardware store for $30? It'll be a long, long, long, long, long, long time before they ever legalize weed here. Japan Tobacco and the big beverage companies, like Asahi and Suntory, would be the only companies permitted to sell it.

Whatever. GO team Weed.

This really makes me want to go take a pic of my favorite weed store. Its literally on the corner next to the Oakland Police Department HQ. The cops walk past it on their way to Starbucks....its so great.

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it's not acid.

That would have been my second thought.
Acid was between $6 and $9dollars a hit when I was a teenager...and that was over 20 years ago.

Oh you and your dashing, handsome, youthful self those 20 years ago.

...As opposed to my current greying,wrinkling curmudgeonly self of today. ...*sigh*...Yesterday.

For what it's worth you look happy enough in your pic, and I can't see any greying hair under that hat of yours.

EDIT: In my crotchety age I appear to becoming senile and forgetting how to spell.

... ...You do realize that that's not me in my avatar...or are you referring to another "happy" and another "hat"...lord ..now I'm confused...I should go watch the 700 club and smoke a blunt.

Yes, I do realize that and er...well, that went south quickly.

Peter Wiggin wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I'd agree with Phryxis as well, been thinking that would be the best way to deal with it for a long while.

On top of which with a regulated, legal option on the cigarette counter, it would hopefully get rid of the dangerous 'Skunk' strength varient over here, or at least put a dent in its popularity.

Skunk is wonderful. Purple is wonderful. However, a good organic indoor sativa has the best odor and heady high. Your skunky indica's and purple indica's are going to have a more laid back vibe with lots of flavor on the exhale of the smoke. Similar to the effect you get from a fine wine tasting.

Hey, ever heard of a pothead beating his wife in a stoned rage?

PS Yes you weirdo Cannerus, you can visit. Oakland Cali baby, home of the Raiders and the best weed in Amerika. Humbolt country not included...they literally throw bud on the ground there.

Oh, yeah this is the only place in the US I've seen where they LITERALLY give away weed plants "because they aren't pretty enough to sell".


My preferred weed brand. Compostable packaging, consistent quality, all organic.

http://www.organicann.com/

This is the thing I really fething hate about this area. Smoke your gak but goddamn do I not want to smell it when you walk into my business.

VermGho5t wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I'd agree with Phryxis as well, been thinking that would be the best way to deal with it for a long while.

On top of which with a regulated, legal option on the cigarette counter, it would hopefully get rid of the dangerous 'Skunk' strength varient over here, or at least put a dent in its popularity.

Skunk is wonderful. Purple is wonderful. However, a good organic indoor sativa has the best odor and heady high. Your skunky indica's and purple indica's are going to have a more laid back vibe with lots of flavor on the exhale of the smoke. Similar to the effect you get from a fine wine tasting.

Hey, ever heard of a pothead beating his wife in a stoned rage?

PS Yes you weirdo Cannerus, you can visit. Oakland Cali baby, home of the Raiders and the best weed in Amerika. Humbolt country not included...they literally throw bud on the ground there.

Oh, yeah this is the only place in the US I've seen where they LITERALLY give away weed plants "because they aren't pretty enough to sell".


My preferred weed brand. Compostable packaging, consistent quality, all organic.

http://www.organicann.com/

This is the thing I really fething hate about this area. Smoke your gak but goddamn do I not want to smell it when you walk into my business.

Ah, I see where you live. Yes I can imagine its a bit....over the top. Plus the mexicans doing grows in the state park is a problem. AMERICAN WEED FOR AMERICAN GROWERS.

P.S. Of course you should be responsible and respectful of others...don't walk around smelling like a brewery or like a grow room.

Man, I haven't seen one single stoner since I moved here
Oh right i know why
IT'S PUNISHABLE BY DEATH HERE LMAO
(not just weed, any narcotic. i would NOT want to get busted!)
I used to smoke it sometimes before i moved, but i sure as hell wouldn't consider it here!

Peter Wiggin wrote:

Actually its because there are zero physical withdrawl side effects from cannabis. Less so than even tobbacco. The entire "gateway drug" angle is a sham that any class in addiction medicine will educate you on.

Now I am all for the legalization of pot but this statement is unequivocally wrong. Obviously there is nowhere near the withdrawal effects of something like an opiate but there is an established withdrawal effect among heavy cannabis users that includes symptoms such as irritability, insomnia, and loss of appetite. Talk to someone who always smokes before bed and then talk to them after they've stopped for a week. Don't take this as an attack I actually agree with your views but I also don't like false pro-legalization info just as much as false anti- legalization info.

On another note I can't wait to get back out to Cali to try that wonderful stuff again. Last time I was there was when I was 18 in the Tahoe area and it was insane. They were literally just giving it away for free at the ski lifts.

DutchKillsRambo wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:

Actually its because there are zero physical withdrawl side effects from cannabis. Less so than even tobbacco. The entire "gateway drug" angle is a sham that any class in addiction medicine will educate you on.

Now I am all for the legalization of pot but this statement is unequivocally wrong. Obviously there is nowhere near the withdrawal effects of something like an opiate but there is an established withdrawal effect among heavy cannabis users that includes symptoms such as irritability, insomnia, and loss of appetite. Talk to someone who always smokes before bed and then talk to them after they've stopped for a week. Don't take this as an attack I actually agree with your views but I also don't like false pro-legalization info just as much as false anti- legalization info.

On another note I can't wait to get back out to Cali to try that wonderful stuff again. Last time I was there was when I was 18 in the Tahoe area and it was insane. They were literally just giving it away for free at the ski lifts.

\


No, U RONG. Trust me on this one, I hold a CADAAC for the state of California and have worked in the behavioral health care/addiction medicine feild for 3 years. The WORST possible physical side effect that cannabis withdrawl can cause is a headache. You may also be grouchy....its about on par with cigg withdrawl, only you don't get the shakes like you do from lack of nicotine.

Edit: Please note that I said zero physical side effects. This means shakes, radically lowered pain threshold, diarhea, seizures, hallucination, etc. THOSE are the things that keep folks hooked on things like xanax, pain killers, heroin, etc. Yayo doesn't really "hurt you" from withdrawl, but it really makes you wish you were dead. That and folks tend to sleep for like a week after a bender. Being irritable is NOT a sign of phsycial withdrawl. Its a sign you didn't get your morning coffee.

I speak from the standpoint of an educated professional, as well as a cannabis user.


Yeah, you can get free weed here. Usually its the crappy stuff that nobody would be able to sell. However I got 2 plants for free from my local club at Xmas. Oh, another thing is that this industry prides itself on "local grown" and "american weed". None of that pesky funding of organized crime....well unless you count the Oakland City Council's cut off the top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mukkin'About wrote:Man, I haven't seen one single stoner since I moved here
Oh right i know why
IT'S PUNISHABLE BY DEATH HERE LMAO
(not just weed, any narcotic. i would NOT want to get busted!)
I used to smoke it sometimes before i moved, but i sure as hell wouldn't consider it here!

Effective deterant. I wouldn't smoke either, not worth getting killed.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Please note that I said zero physical side effects. This means shakes, radically lowered pain threshold, diarhea, seizures, hallucination, etc. THOSE are the things that keep folks hooked on things like xanax, pain killers, heroin, etc. Yayo doesn't really "hurt you" from withdrawl, but it really makes you wish you were dead. That and folks tend to sleep for like a week after a bender. Being irritable is NOT a sign of phsycial withdrawl. Its a sign you didn't get your morning coffee.

Clinical treatment tends to lag behind the state of the medical art for a variety of ethical reasons, but yes, what your quoted poster discussed are physical effects of withdrawal. All perceptible effects of anything, even irritability, are physical. To say otherwise is basically an appeal to Cartesian dualism.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Effective deterant. I wouldn't smoke either, not worth getting killed.

Well, you wouldn't be seen smoking, or stoned. The death penalty doesn't really deter the act, unless the act is "doing X in a cavalier fashion".

dogma wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Please note that I said zero physical side effects. This means shakes, radically lowered pain threshold, diarhea, seizures, hallucination, etc. THOSE are the things that keep folks hooked on things like xanax, pain killers, heroin, etc. Yayo doesn't really "hurt you" from withdrawl, but it really makes you wish you were dead. That and folks tend to sleep for like a week after a bender. Being irritable is NOT a sign of phsycial withdrawl. Its a sign you didn't get your morning coffee.

Clinical treatment tends to lag behind the state of the medical art for a variety of ethical reasons, but yes, what your quoted poster discussed are physical effects of withdrawal. All perceptible effects of anything, even irritability, are physical. To say otherwise is basically an appeal to Cartesian dualism.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Effective deterant. I wouldn't smoke either, not worth getting killed.

Well, you wouldn't be seen smoking, or stoned. The death penalty doesn't really deter the act, unless the act is "doing X in a cavalier fashion".

Bolded for clarity, Dogma...in this case your vaunted intelligence isn't really gonna win. I don't need to argue because I've taken dozens of classes on the biochemical effects of just about every drug in the world...from cannabis to khat, and even touching on salvia divinorum. This also included clinical treatment, research options, long term effects on brain activity, etc.

I know what I'm talking about. Irritability is NOT a physical side effect as it does not occur as a result of dopaminergic action in the mesolimbic pathway.

Emotional Withdrawal Symptoms

* Anxiety
* Restlessness
* Irritability
* Insomnia
* Headaches
* Poor concentration
* Depression
* Social isolation

Physical Withdrawal Symptoms

* Sweating
* Racing heart
* Palpitations
* Muscle tension
* Tightness in the chest
* Difficulty breathing
* Tremor
* Nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea

Dangerous Withdrawal Symptoms

Alcohol and tranquilizers produce the most dangerous physical withdrawal. Suddenly stopping alcohol or tranquilizers can lead to seizures, strokes, or heart attacks in high risk patients. A medically supervised detox can minimize your withdrawal symptoms and reduce the risk of dangerous complications. Some of the dangerous symptoms of alcohol and tranquillizer withdrawal are:

* Grand mal seizures
* Heart attacks
* Strokes
* Hallucinations
* Delirium tremens (DTs)

Withdrawal from opiates like heroin and oxycontin is extremely uncomfortable, but not dangerous unless they are mixed with other drugs. Heroin withdrawal on its own does not produce seizures, heart attacks, strokes, or delirium tremens. (Reference: www.AddictionsAndRecovery.org)

YOu will find cannabis withdrawl includes the emotional list, however NOTHING from the physical list. Emotion vs Physical is a key point in treatment concerns....IE your pot smoker will not be driven by pain or sickness to "fix" the way other drug abusers are.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Bolded for clarity, Dogma...in this case your vaunted intelligence isn't really gonna win.

How does placing my own words in bold help to clarify anything? I am well aware of what I wrote.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I don't need to argue because I've taken dozens of classes on the biochemical effects of just about every drug in the world...from cannabis to khat, and even touching on salvia divinorum. This also included clinical treatment, research options, long term effects on brain activity, etc.

That's nice.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I know what I'm talking about. Irritability is NOT a physical side effect as it does not occur as a result of dopaminergic action in the mesolimbic pathway.

So what causes it? Magical THC deprivation beams?

No, it has a physical cause, as does everything else that occurs in the brain. Its simply that, from a clinicians perspective, attributing things to emotion is what is done when one has no solid grasp of the process that is actually occurring. It helps to reassure the patient when "solid" answers are given with respect to questions about certain effects.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
YOu will find cannabis withdrawl includes the emotional list, however NOTHING from the physical list.

You are aware that emotions are the perceptual manifestation of neurochemical processes, right?

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Emotion vs Physical is a key point in treatment concerns....IE your pot smoker will not be driven by pain or sickness to "fix" the way other drug abusers are.

Pain and sickness are forms of discomfort, and pot smokers are certainly driven by discomfort in many instances. Its simply that their discomfort isn't as strong as, say, someone who is going through alcohol detox.

Wait a minute how is a headache not a physical ailment?

And please explain to me how if you start experiencing insomnia from withdrawing use of a substance that is an emotional response?

Im genuinely curious as my understanding of addiction medicine is that its widely varied and depends on what the researchers personal beliefs are. Im guessing your list is from a class you took yes? So there's no possibility that theres other views on the subject?

Also could you explain to me why its only a physical side effect if it effects a dopaminergic receptor? Wouldn't serotonin syndrome caused by excess MDMA use be a physical side effect?

dogma wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Bolded for clarity, Dogma...in this case your vaunted intelligence isn't really gonna win.

How does placing my own words in bold help to clarify anything? I am well aware of what I wrote.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I don't need to argue because I've taken dozens of classes on the biochemical effects of just about every drug in the world...from cannabis to khat, and even touching on salvia divinorum. This also included clinical treatment, research options, long term effects on brain activity, etc.

That's nice.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I know what I'm talking about. Irritability is NOT a physical side effect as it does not occur as a result of dopaminergic action in the mesolimbic pathway.

So what causes it? Magical THC deprivation beams?

No, it has a physical cause, as does everything else that occurs in the brain. Its simply that, from a clinicians perspective, attributing things to emotion is what is done when one has no solid grasp of the process that is actually occurring. It helps to reassure the patient when "solid" answers are given with respect to questions about certain effects.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
YOu will find cannabis withdrawl includes the emotional list, however NOTHING from the physical list.

You are aware that emotions are the perceptual manifestation of neurochemical processes, right?

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Emotion vs Physical is a key point in treatment concerns....IE your pot smoker will not be driven by pain or sickness to "fix" the way other drug abusers are.

Pain and sickness are forms of discomfort, and pot smokers are certainly driven by discomfort in many instances. Its simply that their discomfort isn't as strong as, say, someone who is going through alcohol detox.

I'm not going to argue, you are wrong. I get that you aren't willing to accept that though. Its fine.

If you're more interested in educating yourself than arguing on the interent, look up stuff such as "Behavioral Pharmacology" for a basic understanding of what it is you are actually trying to argue about.

PS the person driven to use cannabis by the pain or discomfort of cancer or some other illness =/= the pain of withdrawal that causes addicts to fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So what causes it? Magical THC deprivation beams?

A body becomes used to a chemical.....that can be the metabolite of sugar, the GABA release of alcohol, the elevated mood of caffine, etc etc. Just because you have an emotional effect from cessation of a substance does not automatically entail addiction or withdrawal.

Emotional dependence isn't the same as physical addiction. One is a result of action, the other is an action as a result of biological impetus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DutchKillsRambo wrote:Wait a minute how is a headache not a physical ailment?

And please explain to me how if you start experiencing insomnia from withdrawing use of a substance that is an emotional response?

Im genuinely curious as my understanding of addiction medicine is that its widely varied and depends on what the researchers personal beliefs are. Im guessing your list is from a class you took yes? So there's no possibility that theres other views on the subject?

Also could you explain to me why its only a physical side effect if it effects a dopaminergic receptor? Wouldn't serotonin syndrome caused by excess MDMA use be a physical side effect?

Nah, that list is from one of the elevnty billion recovery websites. I can dig up some of my old class stuff if you want me to get technical about this stuff.


There are very specific criteria for physical withdrawal as you absolutely need to know your side effect profile for acute care during initial withdrawal. The DSM-IV outlines stuff pretty well, but I don't feel like copying it here.

The physical dependence results from dopaminergic action inside the mesolimbic pathway. This is the built in "reward" circuit for the human brain...its what makes you feel good when you pet a dog or when you have an orgasm. Drugs act on this area to one degree or another. They also deplete the neurotransmitter that they have primary action...IE your example of MDMA would lead to acute concerns such as flat affect, blunted emotional response, and depression during the initial treatment phase. That is the emotional result of acute MDMA withdrawal based on depletion of seretonin. Intesity of action on the mesolimbic pathway is pretty much proportional to the depletion of neurotransmitters. The more you deplete them, the more "sensitized" the body becomes. Example: Opiate addicts in withdrawal have an AMAZINGLY low tolerance to pain, as well as a propensity for self defecation. This is because opiates have the effect of masking pain and causing constipation. Without the chemical, you no longer have the proper tolerances in your brain to control those aspects of biology.

Serotonin Syndrome is NOT physical withdrawal. You don't die from it, you don't vomit from it, and you don't crap yourself from it. You also aren't going to have the shakes unless you are also coming down hard off some other drug. Sertotonin Syndrome can be caused by all kinds of things including Tramadol OD mixed with an Effexor OD (yes, I've seen that). Problem is that MDMA and X are usually cut with heroin, crack, meth, ice, whatever.

If this helps, here is the defenition of addiction...its really not what most folks think when they hear the word.

Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations.

No where is there mentioned the aspect of physical withdrawal. They are separate treatment concerns. If you have any specific questions, please ask. Addiction medicine saves lives, period.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I'm not going to argue, you are wrong. I get that you aren't willing to accept that though. Its fine.

Yes, I took that refuge when I was 12 as well. Its convenient, and doesn't require that one questions what he has been told is fact.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
If you're more interested in educating yourself than arguing on the interent, look up stuff such as "Behavioral Pharmacology" for a basic understanding of what it is you are actually trying to argue about.

Yes, I'm aware of the discipline. I'm also aware that it lags well behind what is considered state of the art in terms of cognitive psychology, and neuroscience; which is essentially what I said in my first post.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
PS the person driven to use cannabis by the pain or discomfort of cancer or some other illness =/= the pain of withdrawal that causes addicts to fix.

That isn't what I said. Headaches, irritability, and insomnia are all manifestations of discomfort.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
A body becomes used to a chemical.....that can be the metabolite of sugar, the GABA release of alcohol, the elevated mood of caffine, etc etc. Just because you have an emotional effect from cessation of a substance does not automatically entail addiction or withdrawal.

No, but it does entail a physical effect. Re-read what you've written here, you can't even discuss the matter without referring to physical terms like body, sugar, mood, etc.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Emotional dependence isn't the same as physical addiction. One is a result of action, the other is an action as a result of biological impetus.

Why does one take an action if not for biological impetus?

Again, you're basically assuming some sort of ridiculous Cartesian Dualism. I guess that homunculus really loves to get high.

dogma wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I'm not going to argue, you are wrong. I get that you aren't willing to accept that though. Its fine.

Yes, I took that refuge when I was 12 as well. Its convenient, and doesn't require that one questions what he has been told is fact.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
If you're more interested in educating yourself than arguing on the interent, look up stuff such as "Behavioral Pharmacology" for a basic understanding of what it is you are actually trying to argue about.

Yes, I'm aware of the discipline. I'm also aware that it lags well behind what is considered state of the art in terms of cognitive psychology, and neuroscience; which is essentially what I said in my first post.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
PS the person driven to use cannabis by the pain or discomfort of cancer or some other illness =/= the pain of withdrawal that causes addicts to fix.

That isn't what I said. Headaches, irritability, and insomnia are all manifestations of discomfort.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
A body becomes used to a chemical.....that can be the metabolite of sugar, the GABA release of alcohol, the elevated mood of caffine, etc etc. Just because you have an emotional effect from cessation of a substance does not automatically entail addiction or withdrawal.

No, but it does entail a physical effect. Re-read what you've written here, you can't even discuss the matter without referring to physical terms like body, sugar, mood, etc.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Emotional dependence isn't the same as physical addiction. One is a result of action, the other is an action as a result of biological impetus.

Why does one take an action if not for biological impetus?

Again, you're basically assuming some sort of ridiculous Cartesian Dualism. I guess that homunculus really loves to get high.

\


Hi there, I'd much rather argue about something I don't know about than even attempt to educate myself too!


PS just because you don't like my stance doesn't mean I lack an education and professional background in the subject under discussion. This makes my opinion far more grounded in both fact and experience than yours. Just pointing that out....since you enjoy the cleansing power of reason and logic.

Peter Wiggin wrote: Addiction medicine saves lives, period.

Sure, but simply because something saves lives it does not follow that it is correct.

Burning corpses in order to drive out demons saved lives too, but that doesn't mean that demons were really the cause of death.

Utility is often used as an interchangeable quality with respect to accuracy, but it helps to recall that they are not the same.

Argument going nowhere, one of you bring up some proof for your side or both of you shush.

dogma wrote:
Sure, but simply because something saves lives it does not follow that it is correct.

Burning corpses in order to drive out demons saved lives too, but that doesn't mean that demons were really the cause of death.

Yeah, whatever mang. You just wanna fight. Don't need to....read my posts again.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Hi there, I'd much rather argue about something I don't know about than even attempt to educate myself too! PS, I don't care.

You're only presuming that I know nothing of the topic because I don't agree with you.

I'm well aware of how the treatment of addiction and chemical dependency works, and I'm well aware of why it works the way it does. I'm merely explaining to you that simply because something "works" (because it's debatable as to whether or not it actually does) it does not follow that it is an accurate description of the state of reality.

corpsesarefun wrote:Argument going nowhere, one of you bring up some proof for your side or both of you shush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction_medicine

http://www.asam.org/

http://www.caadac.org/

http://www.bpru.org/

<shrug>

that count? I could also pull out some of my old textbooks and class material if you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Hi there, I'd much rather argue about something I don't know about than even attempt to educate myself too! PS, I don't care.

You're only presuming that I know nothing of the topic because I don't agree with you.

I'm well aware of how the treatment of addiction and chemical dependency works, and I'm well aware of why it works the way it does. I'm merely explaining to you that simply because something "works" (because it's debatable as to whether or not it actually does) it does not follow that it is an accurate description of the state of reality.

I don't care if you agree or disagree, I've worked in the feild. I've been through specialized schooling. I know enough to give my own opinion with a reasonable degree of certianty that it can be fact due to my experience.

Would you like to find some other yardstick to measure credibility with cause I think those two sticking points pretty much sum up the word itself.

Peter Wiggin wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Argument going nowhere, one of you bring up some proof for your side or both of you shush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction_medicine

http://www.asam.org/

http://www.caadac.org/

http://www.bpru.org/

<shrug>

that count? I could also pull out some of my old textbooks and class material if you want.

Thank you 2 people spouting "facts" with no apparent sources or proof until they explode is a pet hate of mine. The sites look reputable too.

Oh, just to keep things on subject...here is a link to the most well covered (from a media perspective) clubs in the country.

http://www.harborsidehealthcenter.com/

Also, many of the clubs here do things like condom distribution, peer counseling, free STD tests, and acupuncture/massage therapy at little or no cost to the members, and zero cost to the city/community.

corpsesarefun wrote:Argument going nowhere, one of you bring up some proof for your side or both of you shush.

Neural physiology controls outward emotional responses.

Paper from 1944. May, or may not, be public domain.

Another one, this time from 2002. Cited roughly 877 times according to Jstore, 652 according to Google Scholar.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
I don't care if you agree or disagree, I've worked in the feild. I've been through specialized schooling. I know enough to give my own opinion with a reasonable degree of certianty that it can be fact due to my experience.

Would you like to find some other yardstick to measure credibility with cause I think those two sticking points pretty much sum up the word itself.

I'm not really in the business of credibility. You can say whatever you want, with whatever credentials that you want, but if your argument is bad it's still bad. In this case you've just repeated "I'm correct" while ignoring the fact that I'm arguing that the treatment of a thing is distinct from the description of a thing.

You haven't actually addressed my point even once, which is one from the distinction between utility and accuracy; as I have already said.

dogma wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Argument going nowhere, one of you bring up some proof for your side or both of you shush.

Neural physiology controls outward emotional responses.

Paper from 1944. May, or may not, be public domain.

Here is the title of that paper. Feline research from 70 years ago as a basis to support your arguments against modern addiction medicine is faulty logic and borders on fallacy. You should be ashamed.

Most research paper PDF's aren't public domain...you gotta pay to read PhD thesis crap. This one is no exception

THE HYPOTHALAMUS AND AFFECTIVE BEHAVIOR IN CATS

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:
I'm not really in the business of credibility. You can say whatever you want, with whatever credentials that you want, but if your argument is bad it's still bad. In this case you've just repeated "I'm correct" while ignoring the fact that I'm arguing that the treatment of a thing is distinct from the description of a thing.

You haven't actually addressed my point even once, which is one from the distinction between utility and accuracy; as I have already said.

YOu haven't said anything bro. What exactly is your question? Besides...I've provided a plethora of facts, links to websites, and taken the time to explain what it is that I am actually speaking of. All you seem to do is pick apart people's posts point by point while providing zero supporting evidence of your own.

IE a troll by any other name still lives under a bridge.


Treatment is seperate from difinition...OK derp derp duh. What aspect of treatment would you care to discuss? Direct client care? Post acute withdrawal? Initial treatment? Co-occuring lifestyle concerns? Co-occuring medical concerns? Treatment options for cross cultural addiction? Gender and lifestyle concerns?

If you'd like to really break it down we can talk about family of origin issues, archetypes in wounded familial systems, or even narrative systems analysis. Please, ask away....

I actually see what your arguing now Peter and I guess it's just going to have to remain a disagreement. Some addiction medicine is in your camp and some is in mine. Some view addiction as solely the reward circuit you explain and others view it as any type of behavior that is compulsive and deleterious to your life.

I firmly believe that if you are feeling physical discomfort after stopping compulsive use of a substance, that is a sign of withdrawal. I guess my views are at odds with the DSM, but there's also a point where common sense gets involved.

I think we can both agree biopsychology as a whole and especially addiction medicine are constantly rewriting themselves as new information is found so its probably best to not stick to any type of ideas too closely as they're likely to change.

And you can absolutely get the shakes and vomit from serotonin syndrome. Ive done it myself.

DutchKillsRambo wrote:
I guess my views are at odds with the DSM, but there's also a point where common sense gets involved.

Ok, then you are saying that your "common sense" is more credible than the DSM-IV and the entire medical community that wrote the thing. Feeling that way is fine, but please take the time to consider the amount of research that went into the formulation of the diagnostic criteria.


yes, the aspect of addiction as a bio-psycho-social disease makes things pretty....flexible from a theoretical standpoint. Thats why I did time in direct care instead of just jumping straight back into a class room. One needs a basis in reality for one's opinions.


Serotonin Syndrome SUCKS, I've experienced it myself. No pooping though, that was reserved for my lovely experience with the doctor putting me on Xanax for several months.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Yes, I do like smokin the herb....but you never hear about folks getting stoned and having a bar fight.

And Im sorry but this is another absolutely slowed argument. http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/article246909.ece

I'd rather get in a fistfight then get shot. Face it any mind altering substance can lead to violence and/or poor decisions. You really think no one has ever been killed over pot?