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With all due respect, HBoy, I pull men off double-fisted and straight-faced every game. I just see the commie as increasing the cost of the unit by a third (100+35) to make them less likely to run away. Therefore I think he should be given a mission where he doesn't want to run away. Ever. There are missions for that: bringing power weapon attacks to bear against scary enemies, keeping heavy weapons in line against withering fire, and holding objectives to the last man against the opponent's best efforts.

murdog wrote:I pull men off double-fisted and straight-faced every game.

Well that line made me laugh, it must be my filthy mind seeing rude comments everywhere.

I like using 20 man squads to run through cover towards objectives. Usually try to get them close enough for a volley of las with orders. Usually just give them flamers to pile extra wounds on and a pcs behing with some grenade launchers to help out. I can nevver bring myself to go for the whole power weapon thing, it just strikes me as wrong for sergeants to have weapons that even officers are unlikely to have. I usually do go for a commissar with a power weapon though, just for a bit of combat potential.

I never have a squad bigger than 30 though (well, 31). Some people seem to think that squads of 50 are awesome but after you actually try to use them they are far too big and unwieldy. Most of the time only half can get into combat or rapid fire range anyway and you either have to bunch them up for blast love or have them cover half the board.

Well this has been informative and entertaining! And - so far at least - no one's been hurt!

Tanks for the feedback.

Anyone who isn't tired of the subject can click over on the Army list forum and criticize my latest army list.

I think 1 dilemma for blob players is to melta gun or not to melta gun.

On one hand they are expensive for BS3 shots.

On the other hand mech is king of the meta game so powerblobs are going to run into a lot of mech. On top of that being leadership 9 (8 without a commissar) makes them a prime target for tank shocks. Mech BA won't think twice about multiple tank shocks on a single blob if they catch one without melta.

schadenfreude wrote:I think 1 dilemma for blob players is to melta gun or not to melta gun.

It's not a dilemma for me; I wouldn't think about playing a power blob without melta guns.

Personally I like adding Auto-cannons to blobs. Sure there are times they don't get to fire but the number of times I've been faced with some form of armour and wonder how to deal with it. They just add some flexibility

My first game with power blobs went better than expected... I used 1 20 man blob with Al'Rahem and a few SWS's tagging along and a main 30 man blob with more SWS's and Creed humping it up the board. I will try a few 20 man blobs tomorrow, as that seems to be the consensus on the "best" number.

Waiting for Ailaros to lend his wisdom...

Tri wrote:Personally I like adding Auto-cannons to blobs. Sure there are times they don't get to fire but the number of times I've been faced with some form of armour and wonder how to deal with it. They just add some flexibility

There are two things a blob has for anti-armor.

1) Frag Grenades. With 21+ models, yes you can glance something to death.

2) The rest of your army. HWS, SWS, Vendettas, Stormtroopers. Many units are practically made for anti-tank, so why spend points making a unit that's bad at it barely better?

ElCheezus wrote: so why spend points making a unit that's bad at it barely better?

Because one or two autocannons are very cheap, allow for wound allocation to save one body, allow more guardsmen to make close combat, and allow for long range side shots on vehicles while the unit is holding an objective or otherwise standing around.

ElCheezus wrote:

Tri wrote:Personally I like adding Auto-cannons to blobs. Sure there are times they don't get to fire but the number of times I've been faced with some form of armour and wonder how to deal with it. They just add some flexibility

There are two things a blob has for anti-armor.

1) Frag Grenades. With 21+ models, yes you can glance something to death.

2) The rest of your army. HWS, SWS, Vendettas, Stormtroopers. Many units are practically made for anti-tank, so why spend points making a unit that's bad at it barely better?

1)Glance to death with grenades? Str4 only hurts AV10 so anything with rear armour (or a walker) AV11 ignores them. If it moved then its a 4+ or 6 to hit it (i'll be nice 4+) you then need to roll 6 to glance and then 5+ (for a weapon or immobilised) ... so 1/36 attacks will cause a weapon destroyed or immobilised result ... that isn't good odds.

2)HWS are 3 easy to kill models ... SWS are a bit better but sill easily removed, Vendattas are great but at max you have 3 units shooting ... Storm-troopers are a joke. (... only thing that i would have agreed on being good was veterans but you failed to list them)

2-3 Autocannon + bring it down = 4-6 TL BS3 Str7 shots at vehicle or MC
Sure you can bring other things that do the job better but you can never have enough and they pay for them selves with the first rhino you pop (BS3 AV11= 7/72 ...1AC= 18%, 2AC=34%, 3AC=46% chance of immobilising or worse)(BID TLBS3 AV11 = 21/144 ... 1AC= 27%, 2AC = 47%, 3AC= 61% chance of immobilising or worse) and its not like 20-30pts is going to hurt (if it does you can always loose them)

Tri wrote: Storm-troopers are a joke

I heartily beg to differ, the trick is to keep them cheap and (for me) infiltrate them outside of the main route of advancement of your enemy in small, cheap units.
they are too dangerous to leave around but cheap, and will either easily pick off their point value in points throughout the game or eat an assault and delay a flank.

in larger games they don't do as well since every point you aren't spending on a s8+ weapon is pretty much wasted once you reach FOC saturation.

ElCheezus wrote:There are two things a blob has for anti-armor.

Grundz wrote:Because one or two autocannons are very cheap

Actually, there are three ways: frag grenades, other stuff, and the third: melta in the blob itself.

Meltabombs and meltaguns satisfy the criteria of "very cheap", except, unlike autocannons, they kill vehicles dead, regardless of armor value.

You're right, but I still likes my autocannons

Tri wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:

Tri wrote:Personally I like adding Auto-cannons to blobs. Sure there are times they don't get to fire but the number of times I've been faced with some form of armour and wonder how to deal with it. They just add some flexibility

There are two things a blob has for anti-armor.

1) Frag Grenades. With 21+ models, yes you can glance something to death.

2) The rest of your army. HWS, SWS, Vendettas, Stormtroopers. Many units are practically made for anti-tank, so why spend points making a unit that's bad at it barely better?

1)Glance to death with grenades? Str4 only hurts AV10 so anything with rear armour (or a walker) AV11 ignores them. If it moved then its a 4+ or 6 to hit it (i'll be nice 4+) you then need to roll 6 to glance and then 5+ (for a weapon or immobilised) ... so 1/36 attacks will cause a weapon destroyed or immobilised result ... that isn't good odds.

2)HWS are 3 easy to kill models ... SWS are a bit better but sill easily removed, Vendattas are great but at max you have 3 units shooting ... Storm-troopers are a joke. (... only thing that i would have agreed on being good was veterans but you failed to list them)

2-3 Autocannon + bring it down = 4-6 TL BS3 Str7 shots at vehicle or MC
Sure you can bring other things that do the job better but you can never have enough and they pay for them selves with the first rhino you pop (BS3 AV11= 7/72 ...1AC= 18%, 2AC=34%, 3AC=46% chance of immobilising or worse)(BID TLBS3 AV11 = 21/144 ... 1AC= 27%, 2AC = 47%, 3AC= 61% chance of immobilising or worse) and its not like 20-30pts is going to hurt (if it does you can always loose them)

1) 1/36 chance of those results times 21 guys. 58.3% Two autocannons in that squad have, by your math, a lower chance, but you have to pay for them. Also, you can't more, run, or assault that turn, which should be part of your blob's MO. (I'm assuming you run a power blob by your comment) Basically, it costs you field position as well as points. They have advantages if you need a massive amount of range, but that's about the extent of the advantage.

2) HWS can sit in cover. SWS can hide within your blob to get cover. Neither of those is a perfect solution to a determined opponent, but that's part of why IG should spend points on multiples instead of upgrades. With ACs in blobs you'lll need at least four that aren't doing their job to make the vendetta comparison hold water, plus have at least that many pressing targets. Stormtroopers are actually amazing, if you spend time figuring out what they're good for. And yes, vets are another thing you could spend the points on instead of AutoCanons, sorry I forgot them.

Here's how I've decided to blob for the time being.

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad: bolter, 3 x plasma gun; Chimera: hull heavy flamer

Infantry Squad: Commissar, 2 x power weapon, melta bombs, melta gun
IS: power weapon, melta bombs, melta gun

IS: Commissar, power weapon, lascannon, plasma gun
IS: lascannon, plasma gun

IP
PCS: Al'Rahem, 4 x melta gun; Chimera: hull heavy flamer

IS: Commissar, 2 x power weapon, melta bombs, melta gun
IS: power weapon, melta bombs, melta gun

At point levels above 1,500, Al's blob will get a third squad. The rest of the list at 1,500 is just a CCS with plasma and Chimera plus an Executioner and a Demolisher. Additional vehicles are added for higher levels. Some day, I may get a few more squads of infantry for those bigger games.

Some of the rationale is based on modeling issues, such as how many models I would have to paint by Saturday-week for the tournament . The 3 x plasma gun in the PCS is due to a shortage, not some cunning calculation.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

The cost to include 3 ac in a blob is 40% of the cost of an ac hws, and are far more likely to receive orders. Ig has enough firepower that blobs have the option to sit back while in cover and wait for the enemy to come to the blob.

The cost of a 30 man blob that sits in the backfield and shoots 3 autocannons is 240% the cost of a HWS with autocannons. If you add a commissar for better orders and to not fail morale (which is probably the only reason I see so far to put heavy weapons in a blob), it goes up to 287%.

If you're talking about adding autocannons to a power blob (based on the phrasing "cost to include", I deduce the blob already had a purpose before adding autocannons), then the power blob that is now sitting in the back and waiting for the enemy costs 340% of a HWS.

I understand the temptation to take a 50-man blob with 5 LasCannons and put them in a building, with the 40 extra guys in hiding. That would be nigh-unkillable to ranged fire. Between the cost and the fact that they'll probably be tied up for a long while if they're assaulted just make me think it's not worth it.

^ this.

If you've got a blob that has NO OTHER purpose but to sit in the backfield, then you're spending a LOT of points on something that just sits around.

Otherwise, if the purpose of a blob is to move up and capture objectives (you know, because they're troops choices), then the autocannons are just a useless extra expense tacked on.

I personally use 4 Blobs in 2 Platoons both platoons are identical:
2 Lascannon and Plasma gun squads, 1 with Commissar; blobbed
3 heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher Squads, 1 with Commissar; blobbed

I take these for Efficiency of orders; via 2 CCS(with 2GL+AC each) I can issue Fire on my target to each Heavy bolter blob, and Bring it down to each Lascannon squad.

HWS seem nice but i prefer the bodies to keep the Heavies firing. You assume that the Heavy bolter Blobs are 306.66% of a heavy bolter team, but that 306.666% cost also gives you: 16 backup lasgun shots(33@12" or less), a 24.99% greater chance to receive their orders, 3 grenade launcher shots(which could possibly work like Blast lasguns, depending on your target), and 25 ablative wounds. I think all that is well worth being just over 3X more expensive, especially since it is only 1 squad more than the minimum required to even take the HWS to begin with; and the fact that an entire HWS can be removed from 1(lucky) firing of a Shuriken Cannon.

There are lots of scouts/deep-strikers/turbo-boosters/etc. that are very capable of quickly reaching the backlines where we keep our lovely artillery tanks. Having something there to intercept them, if only for a single turn, can be invaluable. Plus, you often have your own objective to defend, not just theirs to capture.

Yes, but well-equipped blobs can also defend an objective. Giving them good weaponry does not exclude them from holding an objective when the particular circumstances require.

The difference is that if you arm them well, they will actually be able to respond to sudden threats to your backfield much better than a squad which needs to remain static in order to fire its weapons.

Ailaros wrote:^ this.

If you've got a blob that has NO OTHER purpose but to sit in the backfield, then you're spending a LOT of points on something that just sits around.

Otherwise, if the purpose of a blob is to move up and capture objectives (you know, because they're troops choices), then the autocannons are just a useless extra expense tacked on.

I feel the extra men in close combat and flexability to take long range shots should nothing be in range is worth the extra 20 points on the squad, but that is just me

Ailaros wrote:^ this.

If you've got a blob that has NO OTHER purpose but to sit in the backfield, then you're spending a LOT of points on something that just sits around.

Otherwise, if the purpose of a blob is to move up and capture objectives (you know, because they're troops choices), then the autocannons are just a useless extra expense tacked on.

Whenever my chaos army ouguns an opponent I usually have my assault troops hang back and wait for the opponent to come to me. A turn or 2 of softening up an opponent and disrupting movement by destroying transports places my troops in a superior position to assault enemy units as they cross over onto my side of the board. After winning the assault carry the forward momentum towards the objectives and take them.

The same general strategy can work for blobs, which imo makes cheap ac worth it even if they only shoot a couple of times per game.

:-) I have to agree... I've had many games that the ACs I have in the "sit back and defend" blob have splashed transports (Eldar HATE to see my ACs)... If nothing else, having a few rounds of fire to soften up or delay transported assault types is nice... But that's just my experience :-)

End of the day a blob can move 6" a turn (between 7-12 if runs/ assaults) . Being able to reach out and tough some one 48" away is well worth 10pts per gun.

Here's how I kit out my blob Platoons for a foot sloggin' army:

~500pts
PCS 4 meltas, + Chimera
Squad (1, 2), (3,4) : Commissar w/Power weapons, Sgts w/Power weapons and Meltabombs, Grenade Launchers.

Two squads of twenty that's effective at taking out darn near anything on the table. Grenade launchers and meltas can pop light armor with ease. Krak grenades will ruin anyone's day be they marine or monster, and frag's will help put more wounds on a target before you start piling in for the beating.

Keep them relativly close, and you can surround another unit with both squads. I like to lure opponents into attacking the squad, then surrounding them with the other squad. Suddenly there's 6 power weapons and 35 albative wounds pounding in their heads.

I've played both with the autocannons in the blob and with them outside the blob in a HWS, and I kind of like them both.

It was actually Ailaros's argument way back a long time ago that persuaded me to try autocannons *in* the blob. His argument was that, since you've already paid for say a blob of 30 guys, adding 3 autocannons to your army at that point will either cost 30 points (adding them to the blob) or 75 points (buying a HWS). So it makes sense in terms of filling your army with long range shots efficiently to max
out the heavy weapons in your blobs first, then buy HWS to add to your firepower. I don't know why he changed his mind (or maybe I'm misremembering?).

Often, your enemy is coming to you anyway, so a couple of rounds of anti-transport (or anti-MC) shooting in turns 1-3 is helpful. Then, the blob's role can change in the mid- and endgame, and the heavy weapons don't make them noticably less efficient in HtH.

Also, not to use the "I can think of a situation where..." argument, but this weekend I'm fielding a mech Eldar army that maxes out str6 shooting: 16 scatterlasers and 8 shuriken cannons at 1750 points. Mathmatically, if I got the first shot off, my 88 str 6 shots could take out 21 HW bases in 4+ cover with one volley. Even if I only got half my shots, that would cripple the firepower of a guard army that depended entirely on heavy weapon squads--thus leaving a bunch of grunts running around trying to catch my skimmers with meltaguns...

You're mis-remembering, Ailaros hates heavy weapons with a passion.