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I would charge into anything with an equal or lower initiative value.

Fire pistols, and then charge in. That way you can deny your opponent the extra attack and any other goodies such as furious charge.

If you take the initiative and attack first, you will fire 10 str 4 shots, then get 21 attacks. Fire you certainly aren't going to dominate anything, you will be able to do something, instead of just being wiped out.

Lord PoPo wrote:No there isn't a single clear cut answer... but I do think that there are clear cut answers, which is what I was after. If I'm incorrect though then my apologies

And I don't think it's fair to call these posts "tactical squad bashing" threads. We aren't complaining about how bad TAC squads are, merely arguing about the extent of their usefulness.. but even that is a bit of an overstatement.

/self righteous defense of thread

No apologies needed. To clarify, I suppose it would've been prudent for me to say that there isn't a SINGLE clear cut answer for every possible circumstance. Maybe we should upload a spreadsheet and have people pick and choose which topic to debate about at a time.

And btw, I love my Tactical Marines. They're the heart and soul of my list. I rely on them just as much as I would rely on any unit. Because, you know, it helps being able to use your ENTIRE list to help you win.

Cheers!

labmouse42 wrote:TAC squads are not assault units. Sometimes though you want to get em into assault. Here are some times I can see them wanting to assault

Ok. Lets see what we got here.

labmouse42 wrote:* Bottom of turn 6-7. Enemy squad it sitting on objective, and has gone to ground in cover. Your more than 3" from the objective You assault to at least content, and if lucky, break them.

Ok. But what exactly will a pf do to help this? 1.5 wounds probably isn't going to make that much of a difference concerning this tactic.

labmouse42 wrote:* MC has 1 wound left on it. Your unit has a PF. All your other AT weapons have higher priorities (or are gone). You assault to finish off the MC with PF. Rack up easy KP.

Mighty iffy on this situation. First there has to be an MC within assault range, you have to have higher priority for your AT weapons that are going to generate the same KP.

labmouse42 wrote:* You have assaulted squad with your TH/SS termies. You also assault the death star with your tacs to get 3 more PF attacks and a few extra I4 attacks. The idea here is to use them as an additional force multiplier. In this case you would not want to shoot with them, as you could kill to many enemy models and prevent your TH/SS termies for being within 6" of the enemy.

Huh? Why not just shoot them and be a buffer?

labmouse42 wrote:* Bottom of turn 6-7. An enemy is sitting on an objective. You cant get within 3" of it even with assaulting. You assault him to pull him off the objective.

Definite possiblity. But once again, how does the pf significantly increase your chance of suceeding here? I didn't know that I needed a pf to do this?

labmouse42 wrote:* Turn 4 or 5 of a game. You have moved your TAC squad to the middle of the board to capture an objective while supported by other troops. An immobilized'Russ is close. You shoot it with your MG and miss. You assault to plant melta bombs/krak gernades/PF the vehicle out of existence. Who says there are no second chances in life?

Again, another contrived and quite limited circumstance. Was there a full moon when this happened or not? It might make a difference.

labmouse42 wrote:* Orks. Its almost always better to assault orks. Even though you might take an extra round of that PK, the difference between furious charge and the +1 attack (especially with shoota boys) can make a huge difference.

And once again, I don't see how the pf will help you at all in this circumstance. I keep on forgetting that rule where I need a pf to charge and that 1 wound makes all the difference.

labmouse42 wrote:* Severely weak opponents that are in cover. Tau, grots, ratling snipers, etc.... That 4+ cover save makes bolters a heck of a lot less effective. If they go to ground, then your 20 bolters shots might kill 2 or 3 grots. If you assault them, you can easily wipe the unit.

I am going to wipe the grots or tau out anyways or do quite the number on them with or without a pf.

Price for the effect you get. PF's just don't measure up.

imweasel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:biased scenario

Except your math is off again. That termie your sarge killed with his pf still gets to swing even if he does die to the pf. There still is a sarge in with the termies that gets to swing right along with your tac squad as well.

Heaven forbid that the tac squad doesn't get the chance to charge themselves.

The 25pts for the tac squad pf includes a lot of if's, when's and maybe's.

So let's try running the numbers again without the part that inflates your tac squad's numbers.

Okay so we're setting it up to give the tactical marines the assault, which is already biased in the tactical marine's favor.

Tacticals assaulting:
I4 attacks from tacticals: 18 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 18/24 = 3/4 Tacticals kill 1 more often then 0, so we'll round up to the 1.I4 attacks from Terminator sgt: 2* 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/2. Kills 1 half the time. Since we are rounding up, it seems fair to round this up as well.
PF from tactical: 3*1/2 *5/6 *4/6 = 60/72. So again being generous it scores a single kill.
Now the number of attacks depends on who dies at I4, but normally it will be a powerfist terminator, so
PF from terminators: 6*1/2*5/6=30/12. Again with rounding to closest whole number, 3 gone. So tacticals lose 4-2, and now must test on LD 7 to stay in and not give an assault on the terminators turn. its 50/50 though, so we'll give it to them.

Round 2:
Tacticals I4: 5 normals left: 5*1/2*1/2*1/6 = 5/24 not even close to a kill. 0.
Terminators I4: 2*1/2*1/2=1/2 again rounding to closest whole =1.
Tacticals I1: 2 *1/2*5/6*4/6=40/72 rounds to 1
Terminators 4*1/2*5/6=20/12 rounds to 2
Tacticals lose 3-1 and have 3 models left to 2 in the terminator squad. Even if they make their 50/50 to stay in combat, they will lose another 2 models the rest of the squad next combat phase, while the terminators will have 1 model left. So it will be one against one if the tacticals yet again manage to stay in, and if the terminator sgt is left he wins. If its fist against fist its a draw with both sides dead.

If you want to start incorporating shooting, well thats tricky had really not very useful. The reason its not very usefull is because if the tactical marines start trying to get close enough to assault, the terminators can move backwards and still fire their weapons. If the terminators are able to keep them 19-24" away, they will never be able to fire at the terminators while they will take fire every turn.

In short the math does not support terminators losing ANY kind of battle with tactical marines. CC or shooting.

PraetorDave wrote:I would charge into anything with an equal or lower initiative value.

Fire pistols, and then charge in. That way you can deny your opponent the extra attack and any other goodies such as furious charge.

If you take the initiative and attack first, you will fire 10 str 4 shots, then get 21 attacks. Fire you certainly aren't going to dominate anything, you will be able to do something, instead of just being wiped out.

Does this include TH/SS terms?

Another factor people leave out is time. If you assault the enemy and are wiped out or forced to fall back on your own turn, then the enemy is free to assault another target on their turn. It can essentially give a good assault squad 2 squads to destroy in a single game turn, rather than 1.

If you make them assault you (rapid firing before hand), you can weaken them and set up a counter. You make them take more time to destroy/injure your unit, meaning you have more turns of shooting with the rest of your army.

Dracos wrote:Another factor people leave out is time. If you assault the enemy and are wiped out or forced to fall back on your own turn, then the enemy is free to assault another target on their turn.

No one left that out. It was pointed out several times by several different people as one of the factors to consider.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I don't quite get why we're arguing Tacticals vs Terminators when the reason they so often come up with a draw has already been stated:

Terminators are 2 x as survivable as Tacticals, but there are twice as many Tacticals as Terminators. Thus, logically, any CC fight between two full strength units will churn out draws rather than having one squad 'win' more than the other (if a squad comes out of a CC with one or two guys I don't really consider that 'winning')

I'd add my own views and junk but labmouse has summarised it all quite nicely.

L. Wrex

Well against shooting and normal CC attacks termies are 2x survivable (fail on 1-2 vs fail on 1). Against fists and PW tacs get no saves, while the termies still get a 5+. There is also the issue of the fact that the termies could fail more than they should, the tacs could whiff, or the termies make more 2+ and 5++ saves than average. What happens then? If the tacs get lucky and kill more than expected, they are still likely to get hurt badly. If they whiff, there is the chance to be wiped out quickly.

As for the whole termintor math issue... How common are shooting termies these days? Why do they make the sarge take a BAD power sword (2 attacks, with no additional sarge attacks or 2ccw attacks) Really, I haven't seen them since the last time I played a black reach demo. They weren't bad back in 4th... but they just aren't common anymore. More likely to see allied GKT than shooting termies. Why don't we run the numbers on TH/SS termies and GKTs? Since you are actually likely to see that.

Scary things you are LIKELY to see:

Horde troops: Nids, orks, guard. Lots of guys, lots of attacks, usually lowish strength and meh WS. A charge against these guys is in order if you don't mind the potential to get bogged down (some are fearless and you have to kill every one). I would still flame and BP going in, to reduce numbers down.

Other Meq: It sometimes is worth charging them if they have reduced numbers. With equal troops numbers wins. Do not shoot them if they have combat tactics.

MC: There are very few MCs worth charging, PF or PW doesn't change this much, though it can work occasionally. I would only do this if A: the MC only has 1-2 wounds left. And B: I have no other option.

Walkers: the typical walker is AV 12, 2 or so attacks. May or may not ignore armor. Charging it can be a good idea occasionally, but usually not if it has a dread CC weapon. Krak and melta bombs work, albeit slowly against them. PF has a 3x the chance of doing something than a melta bomb, but at a rather high cost. Different walkers can change things quite a bit. Like AV 10-11 walkers can be brought down with just krak nades, but AV 13 is nearly hopeless for even a PF sarge to take out (they usually have a DCCW so your squad gets mauled while you wait for the fist to work). Against the BA talons, you won't even get the time for the fist to work before it is gone.

Vehicles: The squad can hurt most vehicles these days due to most having rear armor 10. Krak and melta bombs work nicely, a fist is really only super effective when the vehicle didn't move. I would go with the "free" options of grenades, and maybe a melta bomb: Against AV 14 all around, krak won't work. PF only glance. Only the melta bomb will pen at all. There isn't many rear AV 14 vehicles, the LR and the monolith are the only ones I can come up with. Land raiders are the only one you are likely to see (and iirc the melta bomb won't work against the monolith), and if your best option is to charge a tactical squad at one to stop it...

Tacticals CAN hold their own against other troop level models. They can even win combat against quite a few of them (due to superior stat line and armor). They are not CC units, they can't match dedicated CC units, they can't match more elite troops (like CSM, nid warriors, grey knights, wyches) but since they are tough and have ATSKNF: they can tarpit decently, and they can get lucky against things they probably shouldn't be fighting.

Dracos wrote:Another factor people leave out is time. If you assault the enemy and are wiped out or forced to fall back on your own turn, then the enemy is free to assault another target on their turn. It can essentially give a good assault squad 2 squads to destroy in a single game turn, rather than 1.

If you make them assault you (rapid firing before hand), you can weaken them and set up a counter. You make them take more time to destroy/injure your unit, meaning you have more turns of shooting with the rest of your army.

unless they would be able to assault you with a unit that would take two assault phases to chew through you. In which case, might it be better to either retreat like you suggested earlier, or charge in the hopes that it will be during their assault phase that they win combat, leaving you open to shoot them?

Lord PoPo wrote:I don't believe, as many seem to, that TAC squads are as effective at melee as Steven Hawkings. I do believe however, that they are much much better at shooting, and that almost all other assault oriented units will see our power armoured troops as little more than a one or maybe even two turn inconvenience. That said, are there times when a TAC squad will see close combat. Perhaps it is holding an objective that is being assaulted, perhaps units have infiltrated next to it, or maybe your opponent has outmaneuvered you.

In this case, assuming that everything that could have been done to support said imminently engaged TAC squad has been done already, under what circumstances do you sit and fire, or move up and charge? Squad weapons and such are completely up to you.


Edit:

It seems that my question was a bit vague. I meant that the squad engaging the Tactical marines can be assumed to beat, or hold, you in CC and your opponent has every indication of doing as such.

Necron warriors.. and Tau infantry.. are the best options to charge w tac sqauds.. don't waist bullets on any necron.. just bash them to pieces

Ah , my friend done something like this . After completly missing with more than half his army ( Hunter killer missles , autocannon , all the big guns aswell ) he charged my daemon prince in close combat with a TAC squad ... and well lets say the didnt see their way through it

Lord PoPo wrote:

Dracos wrote:Another factor people leave out is time. If you assault the enemy and are wiped out or forced to fall back on your own turn, then the enemy is free to assault another target on their turn. It can essentially give a good assault squad 2 squads to destroy in a single game turn, rather than 1.

If you make them assault you (rapid firing before hand), you can weaken them and set up a counter. You make them take more time to destroy/injure your unit, meaning you have more turns of shooting with the rest of your army.

unless they would be able to assault you with a unit that would take two assault phases to chew through you. In which case, might it be better to either retreat like you suggested earlier, or charge in the hopes that it will be during their assault phase that they win combat, leaving you open to shoot them?

I didn't phrase that correctly, I was meaning for premiere assault units I guess, not just good ones. The kind that will wipe you in a single phase.

Since the PF is hidden, 25 points is not at all expensive if you divide that 25 by 10, ending up at just 2.5 points. That's how I see all upgrades to expensive units. If a unit is expensive and I pretty much have to take it, I tend to see any useful upgrades as mandatory. (eg. Wave serpents without spirit stones? Blasphemy in my eyes)

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few situations where that PF not only helps but makes or breaks the combat - first is two tac squads dishing it out, which in the current SM prevalent meta, is not so uncommon. Second is charging a squad of high T small units like Necron Destroyers(who you will probably never catch in assault, but bear with me here) that your tacs would be locked in combat with for ages without the PF. Eldar Striking Scorpions with the hidden PF of their own are another example. Charging an Ork Deffkopta that turboboosted to your lines and has 3+ cover save from shooting. Etc...

Another thing that seems to be overlooked is just what sort of psychological diversion the PF is. As an Eldar player, I don't particularly fear my fast skimmer ships being charged by a PF, but the chance to wreck it is still present, much more so in the case of other slower vehicles. Also, someone mentioned charging a WL being inefficient...well, let me tell you that I'd think twice about charging a tac squad with a WL if they had a PF sarge. If not, there's absolutely nothing to lose doing so. Charging necron warrior squads(sweeping advance denies WBB as we all know) without a PF is just asking for trouble, while even that one kill can mean the difference between sweeping advance or not, ergo one step closer to phase out victory. Etc...

If you're of the mind that tac squads are a necessary evil and that the cheaper they are the better, you have better things to put in your list anyway, then sure, PF aren't good at all. But if you actually want your tac squads to be a threat, PF is the way to go.

Araenion wrote:stuff about the viability of powerfists

There is another 6 page long thread about this subject. If you want to argue about that, please feel free to post your opinion there.

This thread is about when why and what a TAC squad should go on the offensive in a CC sense of the word.

thank you for your comments however.

Distractions ?

imweasel wrote:Ok. Lets see what we got here.

We have already discussed PF/non-PF in debth. This discussion was about why would you charge with a tac squad.
In the instance where you asked why not shoot the squad to support termies....let us say that you have the following...

Example
O are Orks...M are marines, T are Termies.
Lets say that we need to clear the orks off the objective as quickly as possible. Let us say the orks are in cover (which is not uncommon)

O..O..O..O......T....T
O..O..O..O......T....T
O..O..O..O......T....T

M..M..M..M
M..M..M..M

If we were to shoot the Orks with the Marined and Termies, the clever ork player would remove casualities like this, leaving our poor termies out of assault range. The marines double tapped, so they cant do any shooting. Orks stay on the objective, and marines have a sad day. To make matters worse, the orks might even assault the marines (not the termies) the following round.
O..O............T....T
O..O............T....T
O..O............T....T

M..M..M..M
M..M..M..M


Now, if you assault with the marines as well as the termies, you can increase your total attacks by 21 on the orks! Given that you already have termies as the hard hitters, that can clear off those peksy orks. Sure, you might say, thats only 5 more wounds onto the ork unit....but the difference between killing 17 orks in 1 turn vs. 12 orks is quite big. That many fearless wounds at a 6+ save will likely wipe the unit in one turn.
O..O..O..O..T....T
O..O..O..O..T....T
O..O..O..O..T....T
M..M..M..M
M..M..M..M

Does this help illustrate why you want to assault when its useful. It's important to not build any absolutes in 40k, such as "TACs should never assault", as there will be times when its needed to win. I'm not saying its often, but it does happen, and when it does, you need to be to recognize that its time to do it.

Lord PoPo wrote:There is another 6 page long thread about this subject. If you want to argue about that, please feel free to post your opinion there.

This thread is about when why and what a TAC squad should go on the offensive in a CC sense of the word.

thank you for your comments however.

Haha, I apologize, I've been reading that thread and this right after, I somehow believed they were one and the same...

Still, you're quite welcome.