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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:A ram's treated as a CC attack?

I'll guess yes as it's not a shooting.

if i had a squadron of 2 vehicles and they assaulted 1 am I to believe the second doesnt take hits? (unless the assault fails miserably)

i still get to allocate those as i see fit keeping even as possible of course.

why wouldnt it be so for a ram?

although this brings me to the does a deffrolla offer cover saves con of worms as that would make it a "shooting" ish attack eh



1. Ram is not a shooting attack, nor is it a CC attack. The ram is its own special attack. If it WERE a CC attack as your guessing, whats the stat line for it? When in the Assault phase does it take place?
2. Again assaults are in the assault phase, and since assault wounds are treated the same as shooting wounds yes you can allocate them as normal
3. Why wouldnt you assign a ram result? Well read the ramming rules. Its neither in the shooting phase or the assault phase (Im getting annoyed having to say that over and over) so since it takes place in neither phase, its treated differently. Infact the ramming rules specifically state that the ram results are carried out immediately on the 1 (Yes 1, the one) vehicle that it hits. It even states numerous times in the ramming rules that a ram takes place on a single vehicle target. Im sorry but when its that clear on how a ram is carried out, then its just the vehicle being struck, not whatever ones that are in its squadron.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:A ram's treated as a CC attack?
I'll guess yes as it's not a shooting.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:if i had a squadron of 2 vehicles and they assaulted 1 am I to believe the second doesnt take hits? (unless the assault fails miserably)
i still get to allocate those as i see fit keeping even as possible of course.
why wouldnt it be so for a ram?


Because ramming causes a hit on a "vehicle" not a "unit"?

In the same way that things which wound a "model" are not allocated but things which wound a "unit" are.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut






KingCracker wrote:Infact the ramming rules specifically state that the ram results are carried out immediately on the 1 (Yes 1, the one) vehicle that it hits. It even states numerous times in the ramming rules that a ram takes place on a single vehicle target. Im sorry but when its that clear on how a ram is carried out, then its just the vehicle being struck, not whatever ones that are in its squadron.

This, a million times this =P

"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Because a ram can ONLY attack one vehicle at a time - you cant, physically, contact more than one vehicle. This does not mean you cannot allocate the damage away.

"immediately" is incongruous as well, as GW use "immeidately" when they dont actually mean it. For example if the rammed vehicle has an invulnerable or cover save by taking it you are not "applying the result immediately" - you have interrupted the process to take a save.

So either you allow allocation or you disallow cover or invulnerable saves (if ramming disallows cover - fair enough, I cant recall right now. Irrelevant to the argument however)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Ok well you tell me EXACTLY where it says in the rule book that a ram result can be allocated amongst a squadron then. Because the way rules work, is if it says you can allocate a ram result to a different vehicle in a squadron, then your allowed to do so. If the rules dont say you can allocate a ram result to a squadron then you cant. Its pretty basic.


So your logic says that since you cannot allocate a ram result then the game breaks and you cannot use cover saves? Im curious where you came up with that one. Same with saying things like "as GW use "immeidately" when they dont actually mean it" Thats what people say when they can no longer argue their point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/19 12:28:32


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'll try again.

the argument that was attempted was saying that, since the damage result has to be "immediately " applied, you never get the opportunity to allocate. This is a flawed argument as it means you could never take an invulnerable save either, which is false. So an argument based on that reasoning fails. Hopefully, that is clearer si you will be less insulting in your reply.

The rules say to treat the squasdron as a normal unit, allowing you t allocate hits as a normal unit allocates wounds. General permission granted so no specific ram permission required
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Ok, I was abit annoyed at your last post, so Ill apologize for being rude.

But I still would like you to point out exactly where it tells you in the rules to allocate a ram result? Im not arguing about vehicle inv saves, as as far as I can remember those are a fairly new thing. Im not arguing that one cant receive a ram result and THEN take an INV save. My point is simply, it does not state in the rules that you CAN allocate a ram into a squadron, as a ram is neither a shooting nor CC attack.



(cant spell)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/19 15:54:50


 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

To be fair it never says you can ram a squadron either.

Nor does CC vs shooting really have any relation to the resolution of the damage--other than perhaps dealing with cover saves (it could happen!).

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Yes it doesnt say you can ram a Squadron, but a squadron is made of of vehicles to which you can ram. And the rules for how to carry out shooting and CC attacks are covered in the book to a T. Obviously this is one of those rulings (like I said earlier in the tread) that will just need a FAQ before its put to bed, because as usual its split right down the middle as to what happens.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

KingCracker wrote:Yes it doesnt say you can ram a Squadron, but a squadron is made of of vehicles to which you can ram.
Grabbing this part because the squardon rules themselves allow allocation of damage.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






kirsanth wrote:
KingCracker wrote:Yes it doesnt say you can ram a Squadron, but a squadron is made of of vehicles to which you can ram.
Grabbing this part because the squardon rules themselves allow allocation of damage.

... explicitly for shooting attacks and assault damage. Nothing more.

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Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

nkelsch wrote:explicitly for shooting attacks and assault damage.
So TFtD dealt damage cannot be allocated? What about immobilize during DS?

etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/19 18:15:41


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Now your just muddying up the original question. The debate here is ramming squadrons. If you want a ruling on some other aspect effecting squadrons you should start a new thread.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Not at all.

The assertion is that allocation only applies to shooting or assault damage. That assumption itself is where the problem occurs--pointing out why it is an issue is relevant.


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





Kalamazoo, MI

kirsanth wrote:
nkelsch wrote:explicitly for shooting attacks and assault damage.
So TFtD dealt damage cannot be allocated? What about immobilize during DS?

etc.


Deep strike immobilizations would be from difficult terrain, and that is worded in a way that it covers vehicle squadrons, and it works on the vehicle that entered the terrain.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






kirsanth wrote:Not at all.

The assertion is that allocation only applies to shooting or assault damage. That assumption itself is where the problem occurs--pointing out why it is an issue is relevant.



You are grouping 'allocating hits' and 'damaged results' which are two different exceptions. They give us a total of 4 individual un-linked exceptions from regular vehicles for squadrons:

1. How to move a squadron.
2. How to allocate hits to a squadron from shooting.
3. How to resolve damage result tables.
4. How to allocate hits to a squadron from assault.

So what happens if a model is immobimilzed due to dangerous terrain?

1. Did you move and follow the rules for moving a squadron? YES
2. Do you get to allocate the hit because it was a shooting attack? NO
3. Did it suffer a result on the damage rable for vehicles and need to be modified? YES
2. Do you get to allocate the hit because it was an assault attack? NO

Result? Immobilized becomes Wrecked. That is all.

If there is not an explicit exception, the vehicles are treated as individual, regular vehicles. Implying you treat them like 'wound based units' as 'regular units' is not supported anywhere in the rules, because the default form of a REGULAR UNIT for vehicles is a REGULAR VEHICLE.

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Kalamazoo, MI

nkelsch wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Not at all.

The assertion is that allocation only applies to shooting or assault damage. That assumption itself is where the problem occurs--pointing out why it is an issue is relevant.



You are grouping 'allocating hits' and 'damaged results' which are two different exceptions. They give us a total of 4 individual un-linked exceptions from regular vehicles for squadrons:

1. How to move a squadron.
2. How to allocate hits to a squadron from shooting.
3. How to resolve damage result tables.
4. How to allocate hits to a squadron from assault.

So what happens if a model is immobimilzed due to dangerous terrain?

1. Did you move and follow the rules for moving a squadron? YES
2. Do you get to allocate the hit because it was a shooting attack? NO
3. Did it suffer a result on the damage rable for vehicles and need to be modified? YES
2. Do you get to allocate the hit because it was an assault attack? NO

Result? Immobilized becomes Wrecked. That is all.

If there is not an explicit exception, the vehicles are treated as individual, regular vehicles. Implying you treat them like 'wound based units' as 'regular units' is not supported anywhere in the rules, because the default form of a REGULAR UNIT for vehicles is a REGULAR VEHICLE.


Rule Book p.57 under terrain effects covers multiple vehicles moving into terrain, and words it exactly the same as moving a squad into dangerous terrain. "roll a d6 for every vehicle that has entered, left, or moved through..." So results from dangerous terrain don't apply because it clearly stated otherwise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/19 20:35:58


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Made in gr
Sneaky Lictor





Greece

The thing is in this case there is no rule that actually covers the situation eaxctly.
The ramming section appears to have been written without considering the possibility of ramming a squadron and the squadron section is written without considering the possibility of it being rammed.
Now the only place in the good book where it describes how to allocate results to a squadron is in the squadron section for assault and shooting where we all know what is said. This is the only fixed way we have of allocating results and there are no exceptions, though one should argue for dangerous terrain, as everything in the game takes these tests on a per model basis and not per unit. Ramming on the other hand is not taken on a per model basis but on a per unit where this option is available. You can't ram through a squad and hit it 5 times and a Deffrolla can't snipe out leaders in a squad or go through 3 Lemanrusses on the side hitting each of them for d6 Str 10 shots.
To conclude there is no exception for ramming mentioned for squadrons so you go with what is specificly written which is did it suffers a result? the owner allocates that result.

I believe the reason this causes people grief is because it doesn't make sense on the table as they look at it however one must remember that this is a game and the rules can't be 100% life like or it wouldn't be practical to play or fun. Fluff wise GW says if you shoot a squadron/unit and some vehicles/troops (respectively) are out of sight and behind a wall the owner still gets to allocate wounds to them. This is because the unit is not stationary on the battlefield but moving around each other in well practiced yadda yadda etc etc Game balance wise I'll quote Mastermind on the previous page and say if you have 1 f.e. buggy in the open and 2 out of LOS behind an indistructable wall and it suffers 3 penetrates, rules say each buggy gets a result and you are now looking at loosing them all. How can that be possible? they where safe! Answer is it is simply a game and those are the rules as written. The same rules that work againts squadrons should also work for squadrons. Consider this scenario next time you argue that ramming should snipe a vehicle in a squadron

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 03:08:49


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sn0zcumb3r wrote:To conclude there is no exception for ramming mentioned for squadrons so you go with what is specificly written which is did it suffers a result? the owner allocates that result.


Wrong. That is not what it says. Vehicles in a squadron are treated like a regular unit unless there is an exception. "Regular unit" = "regular solo vehicle" as we have rules for regular vehicles and that is what a vehicle in a squadron is unless there is an exception. "regular unit" is not wound-based unit as a vehicle of 1 can be a unit. You use basic vehicle rules in all situations unless an exception is applied.

Owner only allocates when an exception is defined, which is shooting and assault. Exceptions are not default, exceptions are exceptions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 03:18:22


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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





Kalamazoo, MI

nkelsch wrote:
sn0zcumb3r wrote:To conclude there is no exception for ramming mentioned for squadrons so you go with what is specificly written which is did it suffers a result? the owner allocates that result.


Wrong. That is not what it says. Vehicles in a squadron are treated like a regular unit unless there is an exception. "Regular unit" = "regular solo vehicle" as we have rules for regular vehicles and that is what a vehicle in a squadron is unless there is an exception. "regular unit" is not wound-based unit as a vehicle of 1 can be a unit. You use basic vehicle rules in all situations unless an exception is applied.

Owner only allocates when an exception is defined, which is shooting and assault. Exceptions are not default, exceptions are exceptions.


Normal unit in fact refers to a wound based unit. The exact same term is used later, second paragraph under shooting. "...the player controlling the squadron allocates the glancing and penetrating hits to squadron members as he would allocate wounds to a normal unit."

I never noticed that till recently. See what good scholarly discourse can lead to? I might even shift over to thinking it should be allocated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 03:53:51


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Fixture of Dakka






Acidwraine wrote:
Normal unit in fact refers to a wound based unit. The exact same term is used later, second paragraph under shooting. "...the player controlling the squadron allocates the glancing and penetrating hits to squadron members as he would allocate wounds to a normal unit."



1. Prove it means wound-based unit when it says unit. vehicles can be 'normal units' and since they are vehicles, they are normal units.

2. Why would it say "These follow the rules for normal units, with the following exceptions:" and then have an exception that operates exactly the same as a wound based unit? Doesn't that means the EXCEPTION is operating differently than the default behavior? Why would the default behavior of acting like a wound-based unit NEED an exception that makes it operate exactly like a wound-based unit?

That makes no sense... and not what the rules actually say.

Oh... and scholarly debate?

Page 3: 'A Unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as abattle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'."

There is no such thing as a NORMAL unit. All units are normal units. Vehicles Ina squadron are already a normal 'unit type- vehicle' and follow all the rules of 'unit type - vehicle' unless there is an exception. When the victim of a shooting attack, they have an exception to allocate like wounds. Only for shooting attacks... If it is not a shooting attack, the exception doesn't actually apply.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 04:02:39


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Made in us
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Kalamazoo, MI

It also says in the exceptions part

"After cover saves are taken, make the damage rolls for any remaining glancing or penetrating hits."

Which is very much the norm for vehicles.

Also in the first paragraph under shooting. "Like other units..." stating that the rules for wound based units apply because they are one. Well not wound based, but unit being that I don't think that "wound based unit" is a phrase I have seen anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 04:17:55


Imperial Guard, 501st Cadian Urban Assault Group: 5300 points
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Acidwraine wrote:It also says in the exceptions part

"After cover saves are taken, make the damage rolls for any remaining glancing or penetrating hits."

Which is very much the norm for vehicles.

Also in the first paragraph under shooting. "Like other units..." stating that the rules for model based units apply because they are one.



Yes... FOR SHOOTING. If it is not a shooting attack, the whole section for squadrons disappears and doesn't apply, which means no ability to allocate hits. I don't understand how you are trying to apply EXCEPTIONS for specific types of damage to all types of damages... if it applied to all damages, it wouldn't be an exception and wouldn't be listed under 'shooting' and having rules explicitly for shooting attacks.

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Kalamazoo, MI

I very much see your point. But I am no longer boasting the point that "because it says it there". I am saying that it is a Unit. In fact, there is only one definition for unit in the game. On p.3 you will see that all model are units, and all groups of models are also units. And all vehicles are units, and all squads of vehicles are units. So when it says "normal units" it means all of the above.

So being my own devil's advocate here, it would depend on the wording in the ram. It says "each vehicle", and not unit. Also in the first paragraph of ramming it says "top speed toward one enemy vehicle", and it uses that language consistently.

So I am back to where I started now, although I feel much more informed. I had been just dropping little bits in here and there up until the end here on this, because I wasn't sure I wanted to open this can of beans. For some reason tonight I guess the beans had lots of brown sugar and little pieces of hotdog in it.

On a side note, I did just learn that vehicles in squadrons must fire all available weaponry at their target.

Edit: On a side side note, someone may be able to argue that you can't ram a squadron because you can only ram single vehicles...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/20 04:46:53


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Oh dear god, so this is the new anger thread.

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Crawfordsville Indiana

I'll let him/her allocate. If the unit explodes from the ram I don't have to move any further and get another ram on the unit for free. I can ram again if the vehicle explodes. As I can continue ramming until I run out of movement, vehicles to ram, or fail to explode one. To me It would just keep repeating until no more booms or I become immobile.

So, yeah allocate away. I might be able to hit more vehicles than I could reach to begin with.

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Kalamazoo, MI

megatrons2nd wrote:I'll let him/her allocate. If the unit explodes from the ram I don't have to move any further and get another ram on the unit for free. I can ram again if the vehicle explodes. As I can continue ramming until I run out of movement, vehicles to ram, or fail to explode one. To me It would just keep repeating until no more booms or I become immobile.

So, yeah allocate away. I might be able to hit more vehicles than I could reach to begin with.


"If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts."

So, not so much fun, although I am with the can't allocate side.

Also I think rammer is poor word choice.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

theduncan wrote:Oh dear god, so this is the new anger thread.



Yea, its the deffrolla all over again. The difference is, Im not setting up a petition online, and signing up at other forums to get signatures and the BAN hammer on those sites again. Seriously, how many people do you honestly know that have been banned/perma banned from 7 different wargaming sites in a month period? All I know is, after spamming GW with emails everyday containing the petition the deffrolla DID infact get a FAQ about 2weeks later



But yea OT, Im done arguing, because this is exactly the deffrolla thing all over again. There are people on that side arguing to a stand still saying the same thing over and over, and people on this side doing the same thing. Call Gw, theyll give you a horrible answer, or just cop out and say ROLL OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot






Worcester, UK

I've not had this come up in one of my games ... yet. But considering that wound allocation is handled in the shooting phase and also the assult phase with ramming being done in the movement phase as well as implying it being done toward a singular model. I'd have to say if it came up in my game I'd vote towards KingCracker's view.

I do see the logic and consistancy of the side's view, but ultimatly think that this view makes the most sense.

 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




And damage to vehicles is handled in the shooting phase, as well. SO you cant damage that vehicle you just rammed.

The location a rule is in initially has no bearing on it being able to be used elsewhere. Otherwise you could never run or make an assault move.
   
 
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