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see the problem with you nosferatu1001 is that you play your way hopeing for the best hell i play skaven and ive been comming first with them in most of the aussie tornies ive been to. Your list is made for you and you are not takeing into how others play. The list i have gave is a list that is able to defend against all other armys and is a BASIC one to look at when your makeing your own

your list is one that is on chance you do not understand how cheap skaven are hell my Swordmasters ate over 350 my Stormvermin and queek's upgrade are less than that. yes ruin is a good lore of magic but pluage is aswell.

Sometimes its not about what is cheeper its about what can do best against a opponet and A doomWheel yes must move 3D6 in a straght line who cares gets incombat impact hits and shoots in combat and if your worried about it shooting your own guys stick a unit of giant rats next to it.

Last but not least to everyone if you are so worried about misfires dont play skaven because if you dont find it funny rats blowing them selves up this isent the army for you.

Thermatic - seriously, off your high horse before you get a nose bleed.

Your appeal to authority fallacy is noted and rejected.

You play *EVERY* game hoping for the best, as it is a game based on randomness that could screw with every plan. My list DOES cope with all comers (as I pointed out, if you had bothered to read posts properly) without many issues.

My list is NOT made for me, as it is a common basis in the UK. As in, I'm running a tournament sunday for 54 players, have seen all the army lists (of course I'm not playing) and of the 7 skaven players a fair few follow similar ideas I have.

None have jezzail
None have SV
None have a warlord
ALL have a bell
(2200 points, no SC (sigh, again original organiser did that) and some comp restrictions which skaven mostly ignore)

Note this has people coming from all over the UK, not just locals. So again your falalcy is noted and rejected (that of assumign my list is made "just for me" and I "hope for the best" and i dont "take(ing) into account how others play"

A couple have Doomwheels, but this is mainly the comp that the original organiser put in, that restricts your list further if you take a HPA. Whcih skews things somewhat.

Lore of Plague - did you miss the furnace unit I talked about? sheesh.

Jezzail, SV, Warlords et are all, without exception, sub par units, and Doomwheels are over a certain points level. You seem to be conflating "cheaper" with "good ROI", whcih is not what I said at all. The main reason to take a warlord in the 6th ed book was to get Ld7 general - you dont need that as a grey seer is also LD7 now, and can hurt the enemy at range.

Clan rats are *significantly* cheaper than stormvermin, kill roughly the same number of T3, 5+ save enemies yet are more survivable (meaning more ranks, meaning steadfast) than stormvermin due to parry. Meaning you have more points to spend on things that actually kill the enemy (like plague monks, mortars, WLC, HPA, etc) and / or bigger units that can take punishment for longer and stick around. Or,they can have a bell in them and are unbreakable. Which is golden. Meaning that they have a BETTER return on investment than SV. Making them better against all comers. SV are good against specific armies only (and then they arent "good", just "better than they normally are")

Finally: I really, REALLY understand how cheap skaven are. I. PLAY. THE. ARMY. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that, just because they are cheap doesnt make everythign equally good? You still have sub par units (Doomwheel, jezzail, SV) and you still have stellar units (PM, Clanrats with shield and bell, grey seer, HPA, mortars, rocket 'locks, globe 'locks, orb 'locks)?

Could I please get a translation for Thermalunatic's postings? I swear to God I have no idea what he's talking about.

to nosferatu Why dont you get over your attempt of a power trip understand the fact EVERYONE HAS A UNIQUE WAY OF PLAYING.

Squash: i was giving you a basic 1500 point list the units i have seid before are a army that can combat most other armys with a even chance or more of winning the match

I can translate this one:

Nosferatu - everyone has a unique way of playing you big jerk.

Squash - play my way or you will lose... You sexy, sexy son of a bitch.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Stormvermin, with their special weapon, hold up *less effectively* than clanrats with HW+SH. LESS effectively while costing more points.

While I haven't done the math for every conceivable situation, this does not hold true against something like Empire Halberdiers, not an exotic choice by any stretch of the mind. 25 SV (175) vs 35 EH (175) kill 4.4 and suffer 2.78 casualties per round. They will accordingly hold out three full turns while winning each and every round of combat. In this 1:1 scenario, the Halberdiers are most certainly going to run at one point, steadfast or not. If not, they will eventually lose on the fourth turn of combat. Of course the unit of SV will have suffered heavy casualties but hey.

39 Clanrats (175.5) vs 35 EHalbs would perhaps slug it out for even more turns - they lose every round by just 0.23 casualties. However, that can translate into an Ld test in the third round, and again without support they can break as easily as the Halbs before. Even if that is unlikely, having to take a break test at all is not more effective than winning every round of combat.

In other situations with different AS, WS, S, T...things might look different but apparently you cannot universally call SV less effective.

The doomwheel, as I said, is effective at low point games. Otherwise it dies in one turn. 3D6" IN A STRAIGHT LINE, UNABLE TO MANOUVER is far less useful than in 7th, or have you not read that part of the FAQ?

Of course that is a drawback but surely you aren't saying that it cannot reach the enemy? Either way, you said a cannon would kill it. Please, do the math: 50 % not to shoot at all. 16.7 % chance not to wound. 66 % chance not to take off enough wounds. Add in the vagaries of a bad bounce or misfire, even with an Engineer...yes, a cannon can kill it but as I said, that is far from autokill turn 1.

Squash im not saying play my way or lose i was giving a list that is something that is great to build around i mean hell you dont have to use it but its something good to look at having in your amry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and squash you are a sexy beast

Thermatic - you're the one saying there is one list only to use as an all comers list, and that my critique of it was based on me "hoping for the best" and not able to "take(ing) on all comers", so stop shouting you're just digging yourself further in.

You also attempted the appeal to authority fallacy, twice. So its a laugh a minute when you talk about others taking a power trip - you are the one takling in absolutes, that can offer no response to the critiques of DW, SV, Jezzail (or nothing I could discern in your replies, anyway. Just more hyperbole.

Sigh.

On the other hand I showed that a significant number of lists from actual tournament players from all over the UK not only did not conform to your "must haves" but, in fact, did things entirely differently.

LSP - I never said universally, I said on average they were better.

As in, SV will do better against certain classes of troops but will suffer against others.

For example if a monster hits storm vermin your attacks still bounce off the monster, SV or CR, but a CR unit gets to make a save and the SV will not. CR can be unbreakable (and who doesnt want a L4 mage nowadays anyway? 8th ed is l4 mage territory) which further negates that issue.

Althoguh clanrats in combat isnt playing to your armies strength, which is pinning with cheap as chips slaves and shooting 7 shades of sunshine out of them.

Additionally - 50% chance of not shooting assumes the banner is up or is included. It isnt an autoinclude, especially when you want to do some shooting yourself.

see now its amusing how before you were stateing that SV were crap now your saying they are good.

ok now DW two edged sword 3D6 shoots in combat HAS a chance of getting taken out only a small chance and for its points it does have the strength to take out entire units.

SV while more expenive can be used with sheilds to defend objectives while yes more expensive but you can use any extra points you have left over

jezzails 4+ cover and magical weapons now yes they can get taken out but they can cover your units or used to take out smaller units while your warp lighting cannons widdle down the units.

finaly the person who started the list was aking for adivce and what i had put in the list was must haves for a person who is new and wanted a good list to combat all armys while learning how to play.

PLease find a quote where I said SV were crap.

Oh wait, yet again I didnt say that, stop misquoting / misattributing, it makes your argument hold even less water than it did to begin with. I stated that they can be *situationally* good.

However on average CR are better per point.

Which makes them a better ROI in an all comers army. Which is what you keep stating your army is, despite it not actually meeting the definition of one (you have too many "good (ish) against one army / unit, poor against everything else" choices whcih you argue are mandatory.

DW - low armour save, variable shot strength, allows armour saves, only really shines against high-W models. So that would be "good against an ogre army", in general. NOT an all comers choice (it was in 7th because you could control and manouver. Now, not so much - and more terrain is about as well, which is bad news for your moves in a straight line rolling wheel)

Jezzails - you're hitting on 6s / 7s against anything your opponent cares about, or not getting to shoot at all. A 65 point Death Globe warlock will kill more for far less points. Again making them have a low ROI.

SV - not if you have a special weapon you cant. If you have a halberd you must use it in CC, NO exceptions.

Do you understand now the difference between "cheap" and "ROI"? I've tried to explain it a few times now...

Finally: as I have pointed out not only are they NOT must haves, backing this up with examples where you are proven wrong but they are actively a bad choice to make, especially when starting out as you end up wasting your money on units that dont perform. The exception is the DW at low points where it doesnt get shot turn 1.

Thats it. Warlords, unles you play big games, are junk. Not needed for Ld any longer, dont bring enough to the battlefield, and suck compared to other characters in other armies so isnt even a good beatstick. Jezzail? Unless your opponent is deficient at working at how to avoid static firelanes @ 20 points per model you wont get to kill anything useful. A mortar will do the same or better, offensively, while having a 4+ WARD save (and armour!) and can target while being hidden. DW? Good at low points, much less so at higher points. Easy to out manouver as it rolls in a straight line, easy to put cheap and numerous units in the way to soak up the WL shots. SV? Expensive clan rats who kill slightly more of certain enemies, take more casualties against MOST enemies, and cost you more in the process.

TO the OP: when starting out stick with clan rats, if you really like the SV model have a few of those, and get some plaguemonks and a furnace and / or bell. Have a look at the fantastic suicide warlocks, and what happens when you skitterleap a Brass Orb carrying one into an enemies lines. Most importantly - buy models you actually like, as you'll be painting a lot of them!

heres what you seid b) Stormvermin are a waste of points. rats with halberds suck in close combat, as they dont kill very well but die even faster

and put it this way every one has a way to play dont you understand that, last week i went to the unlimited hobbies yearly tornie where 200 people play i won it with my skaven and guess what i took A DW,Jezzies,Queek and SV and i wiped the floor with them.

Plain and simple its good to have choices i say to people go out and buy what you want because you can end up talioring your list to who your playing against.

what i find funny now is your telling every body here not to take DW,Warlords,Jezzies and SV they are great options for example 10 jezzies with 2 WL on each side against a WE player yes they move stuff around but they will block out the biggest threat the cannons leaving your jezzies to take on the treeman, DW against HE the only thing that can hit it is a bolt thrower it has a 3+ save so their bows wont do squat and guess what charge the flank of swordmasters or pheniox guard you will cause more wounds and will get the combat res, warlords have the ability to be mosters put one on a rat orge bonebraker with the 4+ save (ward and armour) and give him a magic weapon stick him a unit of SV blam you have a a unit that most prob wont get charged and will do the chargeing and has a stong chance of winning combat.

nosferatu over their in the UK you might think your a big shot but down in in australia every body takes a unique list that they like to play and that have won with. Deamons, HE,WE,VC, orcs all have unique ways to play and when it comes down to it hell man its all up to the die gods.

Thermatic - notice the word "crap" isnt in there.

No, I said they were a waste of points compared to the statistically better clanrats. Which, statistically, they are. Which you are unable to argue against, still.

AGAIN with the appeal to authority fallacy. That makes 3 times now. Yawn.

Yes, I understand that everyone has a different way to play - however you keep insisting that your way is the "basic" list for any new comer to take on all comers. Meaning not only are you incorrect in your assertion that it is an essential core, you are also a hypocrite.

List tailoring? SOrry, i thought you were saying you were building an all comers list? Do you even read what youre writing to see all your inconsistencies?

Wrong. I said DW are good in low point games - "good" meaning "yes take them if you want".

Jezzail - Yes, the jezzail will shoot the treeman. At long range that's 5s. Through cover (as other models are in between the treeman and you) that makes 6s or 7s, depending on the cover. Oh look, your 10 jezzail, IF you roll luckily, MIGHT get 1 wound. Which assumes the tremen isnt also regenerating. IN which case you may, very luckily, get 1 wound. Or assumes they havent gone "life" and made the treeman T8, in whcih case you arent even getting that.

DW - sorry, bows dont do squat? you really think a 3+ save does anything against volume, something the HE have and then some? Even on 6s to wound you just need to make it make saves, espeically when they have the AP banner. I also thought the DW was a 4+ save...
How are you getting it in the flank? You're assuming the opponent will let you place something in your flank for a turn, something that has agood chance of not moving far enough to get there or of being blocked by terrain or other units? WEll yes, if your opponent lets themselves get flanked by something that does impact hits then you're going to cause damage. Does it make it "good" in all situations againt all armies? NO.

Warlord - so you're investing a lot of points in something your opponent can avoid, like all deathstars, while doing NOTHING offensive at range? He is, by no means, a "monster" even with the fellblade (the only config people brought in 6th / 7th, and they just hoped their warlord didnt die before hitting combat) - and why are SV unlikely to get charged? Chaos knights eat you for lunch and would happily charge you all day long.

Finally: the appeal to authority falalcy in reverse, used as a put down. I am not saying I am a bigshot, I am giving counter points to your unfounded, hyperbole- and contradiction ridden posts that claim that the "core" all comers list is X, Y , Z when in fact it really, really isnt. The fact you cant get rid of your emotions and actually discuss this witout resorting to insults and / or other logical fallacies speaks volumes. Not everyone takes a unique list, and if you ran tournaments and saw the commonalities you would appreciate this.

Edit: The best bit of advice you gave, which others have already given, is this: Play the army you WANT to play, buy the models you like and want to paint (as you will be painting lots of them!) but take on others advice as to what works well together, to avoid the "ooh shiny" trap and ending up with an army that never wins a game, or even gets close.

Trust in your training nosferatu, believe in the force and ignore the troll.

I do my best to ignore them, but when theyre so wrong on such a wide range of points, especially when theyre "helping" out someone new, the urge to counter gets too much

Not expecting them to change, jsut to make sure their misinformation doesnt spread too far.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
LSP - I never said universally, I said on average they were better.

Forgive me if I missed that but from looking back it appears you said "SV hold up less effectively" with no qualifier.

I agree with you that the best unit to tarpit is Slaves, and you might well have something else that is way killier than SV or CR. This notwithstanding I think the fact that the former win a fight against a relatively common unit demonstrates that they can be used to good effect. I do not think it is a good idea to use them primarily in an anti-monster role of course.

As soon as CR are unbreakable, we're looking at more points or a kind of support.

Additionally - 50% chance of not shooting assumes the banner is up or is included. It isnt an autoinclude, especially when you want to do some shooting yourself.

I've never met a Skaven army without it except for a campaign where you could take every item only once.

7 of 7 armies at this weekends tournament dont have it. They all chose to go g'teed shooting, mainly with suicide 'locks, instead.

"SV hold up less effectively" can only be an "in general" statement - there will always be, being the game it is, places where one unit outperforms another.

Pretty much everything in the skaven army is better at killing than CR or SV, plaguemonks being the best example. THe main role for CR / SV is as a bunker - it wont die or run (barring unfortunate failure of 2 Ld10 checks, of course, if you're not unbreakable) while keeping your general and / or BSB safe. Or its there to break steadfast so that other killier units, like RO (who shine with a Ld8 general about, rubbish otherwise, damn stupidity) or HPA, can actually break enemies and make them flee for the hills.

Plus - a grey seer is fairly mandatory, with or without bell. And the bells benefits (18" bubble, amongst others) are worth the 200 points.

nosferatu1001 wrote:7 of 7 armies at this weekends tournament dont have it. They all chose to go g'teed shooting, mainly with suicide 'locks, instead.

Wow, that is interesting. I'm not sure I would like to face suicide 'locks...wait, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it...but still...my warmachines become so much more effective without the cursed banner, it's a whole different game.

Very interesting indeed.

Suicide locks are fun - one guy has gone the full "entire front rank of a horde is heros + command + bell" route, which leaves him 2 heroes to go in the second rank - the l2 warlock and BSB. He then is hoping to get skitterleap off to send death globes and brass orbs into the opponents army, along with a few other tricks. Combined with a first turn doom rocket, which thanks to rolling 7 or 8 dice (25" range, for example, is normally 7 dice) is actually pretty accurate - a good example of how sufficient binomial events does tend towards the normal bell curve! - it can cause carnage to those nice, large infantry blocks.

Your warmachines will struggle to stay effective if you dont guard your back lines, as most lists I have seen have at least one unit of gutter runners with poisoned slings. Death to the average warmachine they are...

Quite so, defending WM is an issue. I have found that an L1 with Fire can do the job. Of course it can be dispelled, and it shouldn't be difficult for an L4 but hey, that goes for other stuff, too.

I am going to have to try the suicide locks for my force...It does pretty well as it is, even having a small 20 man SV unit in it, since I personally love the models. I do have agree that the SV unit is a waste of points though, all the heavy lifting in my army is done by the CR and PM units + Abom support. I am probably going to drop the SV unit to add 10 more PM to my unit and give a furnace to the priest...two unbreakable units in a skaven army is just wrong...people have a hard enough time with the bell unit, because it holds them up long enough for something that can really put the hurt on them to arrive and see them off.

Are death Globes and Brass orbs repeatable items? or are they one per army?

Which is why you have ac ouple units - with average rolling you can seriously dent cannon very quickly with poison. Its one reason I love my chameleon skinks so much

[Last game - Found a spot just on the board edge, 12" away from everything but not a place he could shoot me / magic me too easily, without messing up his battle lines. Killed a cannon, which panicked a mortar, and ifnished up killing a unit of handgunners. 10 chameleons can be wonderful at times!]

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the bells benefits (18" bubble, amongst others) are worth the 200 points.

Quick question for you though: How do you keep the seer from being overwhelmed by attacks? With the 3 wide frontage of the bell, 5 rank and file (plus possible champ) can direct their attacks against the Seer. Since it's not a challenge, the Seer can't refuse and clamber higher onto the Bell to avoid it.

streamdragon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the bells benefits (18" bubble, amongst others) are worth the 200 points.

Quick question for you though: How do you keep the seer from being overwhelmed by attacks? With the 3 wide frontage of the bell, 5 rank and file (plus possible champ) can direct their attacks against the Seer. Since it's not a challenge, the Seer can't refuse and clamber higher onto the Bell to avoid it.

honestly, that IS the only downside to the bell...A saavy opponent wont challenge, just direct attacks. You have hope that your seer makes his 4+ saves, and has a skalm lying around, or he is toast.

The Seer can challenge the champion if he is the only character there. It can either give him a one-on-one he can win or force one attacker to get out of there. Small I guess.

He has a 4+ ward save and rat ogres lay a beating on the unit. As a Skaven player, you should really outnumber your opponent and cause them to break. Magic is good too to whittle them down to cause the break test faster.

bucheonman wrote:The Seer can challenge the champion if he is the only character there. It can either give him a one-on-one he can win or force one attacker to get out of there. Small I guess.

He has a 4+ ward save and rat ogres lay a beating on the unit. As a Skaven player, you should really outnumber your opponent and cause them to break. Magic is good too to whittle them down to cause the break test faster.

Thats quite a good idea! I will use that in the future!

Champions can safely decline in 8th edition- they are not retired to the back if a challenge is declined.

I've found my biggest problem with directing a lot of attacks at the bell is the requirement to maximize the number of models fighting. Specifically, since most of the units I run are five wide, I can only contact the bell with a couple files, as the rest are stuck maximizing skaven models in contact.

the main reason i dont concern my self with my seer dying is that the bell still makes my unit unbreakable, and we will usually win the fight even tho the seer is dead. Additionally, you only get points for him if you kill both the bell and the seer, since it is a mount, so your opponent is now stuck trying to kill a t6 4+ inv save beastie with lots of wounds, while you have clanrats and abominations crawling up your back.

Additionally: why is your seer in a combat the bell unit (plus doomflayer, etc, support) cant win?

There are very few Grey seers on bells around without a handy Skalm...

nosferatu1001 wrote:why is your seer in a combat?

Because after 4 turns of futile attempts to get trough becalming there's a bunch of angry temple guards climbing up to ask "For whom the bell tolls?"

heh, No grey seer worth his whiskers charges into a combat that isnt a sure thing!

Its the skaven way!

And if he gets charged, well it was either always part of the plan, or some underlings vile treachery! Not his fault at all!