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pitfighter wrote:LoL guys, the word immediately is not written. It is clear enough though that characteristic tests are resolved onepiece. As for the description of the psychic powers the book states that they count as shooting attacks for specific purposes, such as their need of checking a line of sight, and the need to assault the affected unit. But there no indication that the attack should break to follow the sequence of the normal attacks.

As for when the result of the test is resolved, I believe it is resolved on the same step of the phase it originaly begun. The roll to hit step ( IMHO)

There are literally no rules to tell us when to resolve a Characteristic Test which is being resolved as part of a unit's shooting alongside other shooting. None. No point pretending otherwise; it's just one of those holes GW occasionally leaves in the rules. Any solution you or anyone else comes up with requires making something up to patch this hole.

And that's okay! This happens, sometimes. You just need to come to an agreement with your opponent. If you play the same group of guys on a regular basis, it's a good idea to come up with one standard way to always play it.

pitfighter wrote:It seems I cant convince you and you all seem like Space wolf trolls using countercases to argue with me.

Most of us don't even play Space Wolves.

Take a pause, please, and realize that you just insulted everyone you're arguing with. Is that a good tactic? Does it make your argument look more convincing, or does it just make you look frustrated? The most common reason for people to insult people they disagree with is that they can't come up with a good argument.

pitfighter wrote:Unfortunately I am not able to find a way to communicate with GW and get an answer.

You can always email GW customer service, but that's about as reliable as asking a random player in your local store. GW customer service guys don't have special or better knowledge of the rules. Most of the guys assigned to answer the emails actually don't know the rules as well as the more dedicated posters here.

Sanguinis, I agree with you, My strong point is that the shooting sequence is split in steps each one resolving individualy, before the next follows. That is why I say that when one of these steps is closing ( for example the roll to hit step) there can't be open cases left unresolved such as a characteristic test that started on that step. If the rules and steps of the turn made to make our life easier where not to be taken into consideration for their role in keeping the game understandable and easy to follow, then the game would be chaotic

As for when the models should be removed I still strongly believe that they are part of an effect caused by a characteristic test and it has to affect the game as soon as the test is taken like every other characteristic test in the game.

pitfighter wrote:As for when the models should be removed I still strongly believe that they are part of an effect caused by a characteristic test and it has to affect the game as soon as the test is taken like every other characteristic test in the game.

I think models should be removed in the phase of the rules that was created for it. It is a shooting attack, that occurs simultaneously as other shooting from the unit. Results of the shooting are part of that shooting attack.

As for "all other characteristic tests in the game", I think you are missing a fair number of them.

pitfighter said: Sanguinis, I agree with you, My strong point is that the shooting sequence is split in steps each one resolving individualy, before the next follows. That is why I say that when one of these steps is closing ( for example the roll to hit step) there can't be open cases left unresolved such as a characteristic test that started on that step. If the rules and steps of the turn made to make our life easier where not to be taken into consideration for their role in keeping the game understandable and easy to follow, then the game would be chaotic

Your missing a crucial point though. The "to wound" phase happens before the assign wounds which happens before the take armor saves which happens before the remove casualties phase. Therefore when the "to wound" phase happens you actually have unresolved cases because if you didn't then the assign wounds, take armor saves, and remove casualties phase would happen during the to wound phase which they do not. Therefore it is ok to leave the JotWW Orkz alone until the assign wounds phase which is the phase where the Ork player can put wounds onto the Orkz which have been hit by JotWW and failed there I test as an I test is not a wound.

pitfighter said: As for when the models should be removed I still strongly believe that they are part of an effect caused by a characteristic test and it has to affect the game as soon as the test is taken like every other characteristic test in the game.

But it still happened during the shooting phase, therefore it follows the rules for the shooting phase including assigning wounds etc etc. No where in JotWW's description does it say, "remove casualties as soon as the I test is taken which is done as soon as the power goes off before any other shooting."

Believe me pitfighter I hate Orkz (there actually my least favorite race) and I was thinking of starting Space Wolves, so I am in no way trying to be biased here. However, the facts are pretty clear, JotWW casualties can be given shooting wounds. Thats why you use JotWW to snipe special models, or to kill Monstrous creatures out right.

This is why GW needsa competent rules lawyer to review the rules before they go out, and write them in an unambiguous way

I loath JOTWW, as it's invariably used to snipe my powerful characters with little to no chance of their survival..

It may only be a 1 in 6 to snipe Calgar and other marine/eldar/dark eldar characters, but its more like a 5 in 6 to vape ork/nid ones and 50/50 to kill Necron ones.

I think the rule was made (as all are) with the assumption that marine stats are the baseline, and anyone with an I of less than 4 shouldn;t be playing anyway...

Have Arjak throw his hammer first. . . .

Most times I dont really use jaws, and with every situation I try to find the solution that is most fair for me and my opponent and with the specific opponent we are friends and we enjoy the game and our friendship no matter what happens in a game ot two. we will solve this. I didn't want to insult anyone, but it seems that everyone keeps using the same cases that the rules doesnt say this or doesnt say that , when there is no need for the rules to clarify anything more, just to argue and make a specific psychic power, that is most of the time mediocre, even worse. There are two things happening, they are very very different one from the other and each one has its own rules and solutions. A characteristics test, and the shooting sequence. they do start at the same time, in the shooting phase. As we lack any extra specifications( because there is actually no need for them) of how these two should work together as they both start at the same time, we have but to follow their already existing rules and resolve them as we had always done till now.
The assumption that they both take place at the same time is partially correct. I believe that they start at the same time. but by the existing rules it is impossible for them to end at the same time, because normal shooting is a procedure that requires steps to be made whereas a characteristic test takes place and resolves onepiece. the fact that he have no indication of the characteristic test could end after some period of time or steps is the proof that it ends onepiece. If there was a need for it to resolve later, there should at least be some indication of it. Untill now it was clear for everyone in any circumstance that a characteristic test is resolved onepiece. Now everyone is trying to clarify that this is not correct. If we wanted, For every rule or situation we didnt like we could argue that the rules are not specific enough or that some rule could mean something else, but we dont do that , right?






I am sorry if I had offended anyone this was not my purpose.

pitfighter wrote:Untill now it was clear for everyone in any circumstance that a characteristic test is resolved onepiece.

This was never clear to me, as I still do not see a reason for it in the rules.

The issue you see is that most characteristic tests are not done as part of a resolution, but rather as the entirety of the resolution.
There is nothing "immediate' about it, just that there is rarely anything to compete with the timing.


Editing to add:
Pre-clarification this was almost exactly why folks argued multiple pinning weapons from one unit could force multiple pinning tests.

I've been seeing this argument a lot that "remove from play" casualties caused by JOTWW should be resolved at the end of the shooting phase with the rest of the shooting casualties. However, if you read closely in the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook it specifically states that the kind of casualties removed at this step are those who failed saves from wounds. Since JOTWW doesn't involve wounds or saves, I think it's pretty clear that JOTWW is resolved immediately or in other words, in the same step that it asks the player to take the initiative test.

There isn't really a definitive answer to this. It would seem to me that you can allocate the wounds to the Jaws'd Orks, but it seems to me like it could go either way...

In the future, just use Living Lightning/Murderous Hurricane. Then you won't even have this sort of issue, and all the Orks would probably be dead anyway.

I say everything happens at the same time no matter if it's a PSA or not.

Fo JotWW everything is done at the same time, so if no wounds to roll, you just ignore it, and let the rest of the SW do the roll to wounds and then keep going onto the next step.

Maybe the question is, next time, just don't put RP in the same group of the rest of the SW problem solved.

Also with how the opponent is being so rude, the other question is, Do you need anything else for the "easy button"? Like come on, you are playing with plastic toy soliders and you need to have your rules even easier to play with?

I just guess some people just need the "I win button" instead of the "I need it easier button".

Again, I say this because you talk to people who are debating, not arguing, wich seems you want an argument like you have said.