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Top is for when you are getting bombed or targeted by Artillery as well as going into Assaults versus infantry. In case of Artillery, your Top Armor goes against their Bombardment Value to determine what you need to roll to "save"

Artillery bombardments, mines, and tank assaults (from infantry) hit the top armor.

Gotcha, thanks... just learning as I go... so it is a lot to take in... In so much as it's the same as 40k, it is also very different.

I'm still torn between doing a Panzerkompanie or doing something infantry related... If I were playing Allies, the choice would be easy, but I do so like my German tanks.

Ah, I have an idea! Pick up Stalin's Onslaught, and make a StuG Batterie list. That way you can run StuG III's with riders. And you can have up to 4 Tiger 1e's for support. This is all for late war though.

ancientsociety wrote:
Late War = 1944-1945
almost exact opposite of EW as German forces are thin and rely on infantry, this era almost exclusively takes place in Central/Western Europe, most expensive forces

Not much happening on the Eastern Front then?

Wasnt the Red Army in Central Europe by late 1944?

What I've found interesting is I can field as canadians 3 infantry platoons, a command squad, mortar teams and possibly mg teams and still have enough points to fit 3 shermans in 1000 points but with Germany it's only 8 tanks.

Is armor that powerful?

That depends on who you ask.

From a game mechanic point of view, unless your infantry combat platoons are packing bazookas or are rated as engineers with Tank Assault, you will find fighting a tank in hand to hand combat is a pretty one-sided affair.

As no doubt, people will point out, this is not very historically accurate, and they would be right. But for the rules. Look at this way. Average Top Armor for a Tank is 1 and the average tank assault of regular infantry is 1. Which means, in assault, any hits the infantry scores, is their 1 vs. the tanks 1 + 1d6 meaning, the Tank is never in any danger.

Now, as said before, Bazookas, Engineers, or infantry with Tank assault rating of 2 or higher, changes things. Most German Command teams can be upgraded to Panzerschrek or Panzerknacker teams to give them a tank assault of 5 or 6. Bazooka's shoot during defensive fire and hit against a tank's side armor. So it gets pretty dicey.


Mind you though, this is not very historically accurate. But that really means nothing to your poor Canadian infantry that are staring down 6 advancing Panzer IVs in this game.

Well at 1000 points it impossible to get 6 PzIVs on the field. But it would be 7 PzIIIs and a IV.

I guess it just seems daunting to face of against so many more models. I'm used to 40k. I gotta remember that it's like bolters against predators.

I'm planning on adding infantry once we scale up in points. Some grenadiers or fallschrimjagr. Or something lol.

Is it possible to do all armor and be successful?

Also. I see the half track mounted infantry. I thought halftracks are transports so they are really just to get squads closer. Can someone clarify how they play out?

RIGHT-Titan wrote:Well at 1000 points it impossible to get 6 PzIVs on the field. But it would be 7 PzIIIs and a IV.

I guess it just seems daunting to face of against so many more models. I'm used to 40k. I gotta remember that it's like bolters against predators.

If the infantry itself doesnt have the anti-tank capabilities mentioned above its more like Predators vs. Lasguns.

RIGHT-Titan wrote:

I'm planning on adding infantry once we scale up in points. Some grenadiers or fallschrimjagr. Or something lol.

Is it possible to do all armor and be successful?

To a degree. It depends on your opponents, lucky, and the class of players you face. Going into a Tournament setting I would not take an all armor list. However, It can look good from a gaming point of view, and I have had alot of fun with mine. Ti is pretty much 1 Tiger Command Tank, 2 Panzer Platoons w/ 2 Tigers each and I rotate what I bring in support depending on the points. Motorised Scout Platoon. Its the SS panzerkompanie from Villers-Bocage book that I run. Occasionally led by Wittman.

RIGHT-Titan wrote:

Also. I see the half track mounted infantry. I thought halftracks are transports so they are really just to get squads closer. Can someone clarify how they play out?

This one really depends on which nation you are playing. Im not sure about Allies or Soviets, but I think that it is only the Germans that can make assaults directly from Half-tracks. Other nations have to dismount first. However, Half-tracks can also act as infantry support If needed. Not really familiar with their use, but they are really the only "armored" transports. You should never attempt to move infantry in a truck across a battlefield. It usually ends in disaster.

How many points is that list? I'm at work ATM.

Do tanks suffer against infantry if they are kitted with bazookas?

My buddy is going to play a canadian rifle company and I don't want it to be a turkey shoot either way. Were both new and I don't want either to get discouraged

Oh yeah, Assaulting into Bazooka's with tanks is a rather desperate and foolhardy thing to do. Getting close to them in general is a very bad thing to do. I know American's have em. Dont have the book infront of me so I cant give you exact points and figures on that.

As for my army list here it is -

Schwere SS-Panzerkompanie

1 Tiger I E - 250 CC
1 Tiger I E - 240 2iC

Schwere SS-Panzer Platoon
2 Tiger I E - 480
2 Tiger I E - 480

(this is a hefty 1450 for 6 tanks) Nothing else. Occasionally run Wittmann which is 100 additional points. so 1550. For late-War Western Front this is a pretty stout list if luck is with you. You will be surprised how tough it is. Though, there are certainly forces out there that can demolish this. I enjoy it. And dropping Wittmann and the 2iC Tiger frees up 340pt to add support units to give you a little more flexibility. However, this list dollar wise would run you 1 Tiger Blister + 1 Tiger Marsch box which would be about 80 bucks.

Play with realistic forces and bugger the points..........

So bazookas only get to fire if you assault the platoon?

So effective ways to kill a tank are:

Other tanks
AT guns
Assaulting with engineers
Artillery
Planes
Mortars? I assume anyways...

Small arms fire just bounces off though.

no, Bazooka's have an 8' range. If you move and shot, they get a +1 to what you need to hit with. And during assault's Defensive Fire, they hit against the tank's Side armor.

Light Mortars are ineffective against tanks, Medium are only slightly better. They also have rather bad Firepower so I would not rely on them for Anti-Tank responsibilities. You will use them primarily for Bombarding infantry or Smoking Targets.

Gotcha. So if I stay at range and only assault infantry withought bazookas I should be able to roll over infantry.

But if they can hit me with engineers, heavy mortar/arty, planes or at guns it's gonna hurt.

RIGHT-Titan wrote:Gotcha. So if I stay at range and only assault infantry withought bazookas I should be able to roll over infantry.

But if they can hit me with engineers, heavy mortar/arty, planes or at guns it's gonna hurt.

Well, consider some other things here....

Tactically, there are several things you can do to mitigate the bazookas when assaulting them with tanks.

First, hit the enemy infantry platoon alot of times to pin them, or use artillery, mortars. air-support to pin them. Since I believe you're running a Panzerkompanie, just use your MG's and main guns on the target platoon.....if you get 5 or more hits they become pinned, regardless of casualties.

So, when you assault them, the targeted platoon's ROF (rate of fire) is diminished to 1 (or 2 if they have HMG/LMG's) and those bazookas have a +1 mod to hit you when pinned.
The good thing about most German tanks, is their long range firepower; keep the enemy at range and use your Stormtrooper move to shuffle in and out range or to cover when necessary.

Down where I play, we finished up a North Africa campaign and my Italian Bersaglieri were paired up with a decent German player who ran a standard Panzerkompanie to great effect. We played with point ranges from 750-1.5k and with a 1k points in a tank company, yeah, you're looking at 6-9 tanks (maybe more) depending on what you're fielding. When combined with infantry or mech infantry especially, the tanks really come into their own.

However, in this particular period (MW) air-support, which can be hit-or-miss sometimes, can be very helpful with a pure tank company list. Even if it's in the Limted or Sporadic category, it can help pin those pesky infantry platoons that field bazookas....

I am going to field a panzerkompanie. I'm just undecided if it'll be an African one or an Italian one. The way I want to field the Italian panzerkompanie is:

Command platoon:
Panzer IV H with schurzen armor
Panzer III L with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

This comes to exactly 1000 pts and seems reasonable based on the limitations of the list and point values

But if I go with African units I only get panzer III J earlies but it saves nearly 200 points for more tanks or some infantry.

RIGHT-Titan wrote:I am going to field a panzerkompanie. I'm just undecided if it'll be an African one or an Italian one. The way I want to field the Italian panzerkompanie is:

Command platoon:
Panzer IV H with schurzen armor
Panzer III L with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

This comes to exactly 1000 pts and seems reasonable based on the limitations of the list and point values

But if I go with African units I only get panzer III J earlies but it saves nearly 200 points for more tanks or some infantry.

Seems good, this is just for friendly play right? If possible I'd get at least one more platoon of something, maybe pioneers? Or something to sit back on objectives and shoot. Also, you could probably squeeze some more in if you dropped the PzIV from the Hq slot down to a PzIII. But it is your list and play how you'd like

RIGHT-Titan wrote:I am going to field a panzerkompanie. I'm just undecided if it'll be an African one or an Italian one. The way I want to field the Italian panzerkompanie is:

Command platoon:
Panzer IV H with schurzen armor
Panzer III L with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

This comes to exactly 1000 pts and seems reasonable based on the limitations of the list and point values

But if I go with African units I only get panzer III J earlies but it saves nearly 200 points for more tanks or some infantry.

It looks good so far, but there's one suggestion I would make. If you're going to have a Pzkw IV H, don't make it your company commander. There's a rule called Gun Tank, where when they're shooting at you they can roll for all their hits, and on a 5+ they can apply it to a vehicle with a different chassis or gun. Since this is your CiC they're basically going to be able to pick him out, and as soon as you're forced to take a company motivation check your entire force is going to run.

IAmTheWalrus wrote:

RIGHT-Titan wrote:I am going to field a panzerkompanie. I'm just undecided if it'll be an African one or an Italian one. The way I want to field the Italian panzerkompanie is:

Command platoon:
Panzer IV H with schurzen armor
Panzer III L with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

Combat platoon:
3x Panzer III L, 2 with schurzen armor

This comes to exactly 1000 pts and seems reasonable based on the limitations of the list and point values

But if I go with African units I only get panzer III J earlies but it saves nearly 200 points for more tanks or some infantry.

It looks good so far, but there's one suggestion I would make. If you're going to have a Pzkw IV H, don't make it your company commander. There's a rule called Gun Tank, where when they're shooting at you they can roll for all their hits, and on a 5+ they can apply it to a vehicle with a different chassis or gun. Since this is your CiC they're basically going to be able to pick him out, and as soon as you're forced to take a company motivation check your entire force is going to run.

That's a good point, so it's something to keep in mind.......but yeah, the Germans seem a bit under-equipped in the desert when compared to Tunisia/Sicily and Italy.

ThirdUltra wrote:

RIGHT-Titan wrote:


...So, when you assault them, the targeted platoon's ROF (rate of fire) is diminished to 1 (or 2 if they have HMG/LMG's) and those bazookas have a +1 mod to hit you when pinned.
The good thing about most German tanks, is their long range firepower; keep the enemy at range and use your Stormtrooper move to shuffle in and out range or to cover when necessary....

Stormtrooper is a great rule! However do not grow dependent on it! If you are like me, make something that you will notice or make you remember to stormtrooper. I have forgotten to do it countless times. The rule is a great way to surge infantry forward or reposition your tanks or get them back out of line of sight if they need to. However, do not count on this every time. You'll find that as soon as you NEED it to happen it wont. It is a cruel cruel mistress!

Is it just me or is the Sherman III every bit as good as the panzers and in some cases better. It has higher anti tank and longer range.

It is entirely possible to fit 8 shermans in a canadian armor regiment. And that is a little terrifying from a panzer IV an III perspective. They are a little pricier but still easily fits.

Thoughts?

The German Tank crews should have the better training. You takes will be far more maneuverable then his thanks to the Stormtrooper rule.

Your Panzer Force can be far more flexible then his between Stormtrooper and the German platoon commander rule (for the life of me I cant recall it at the moment). Do not forget the Kampfgruppe Rule

Think I spelled that right.

RIGHT-Titan wrote:Is it just me or is the Sherman III every bit as good as the panzers and in some cases better. It has higher anti tank and longer range.

It is entirely possible to fit 8 shermans in a canadian armor regiment. And that is a little terrifying from a panzer IV an III perspective. They are a little pricier but still easily fits.

Thoughts?

Yes, it has its advantages, especially in the hands of the Brit forces since they get the semi-indirect fire rule.
The German Panzer IV G/H's are a good matchup for it as it has the same range, but lacks the improved side armor of the Sherman.

Still, if your panzers can flank the Shermans or if you catch some with their turrets turned on the flanks, they can become easy prey.

So yeah, the Canadians can field 8 Shermans in a Armored Squadron in Italy for 1k points, but their skill-level is Confident-Trained, whereas your forces are Confident-Vet.
In a long-ranged fire-fight, it will be difficult for them to hit you and you''ll have better numbers to hit them.
You'll probably be outnumbered, but with your skill and a little bit of tactics, you should be able to give them a good fight.

Comintern wrote:As no doubt, people will point out, this is not very historically accurate, and they would be right. But for the rules. Look at this way. Average Top Armor for a Tank is 1 and the average tank assault of regular infantry is 1. Which means, in assault, any hits the infantry scores, is their 1 vs. the tanks 1 + 1d6 meaning, the Tank is never in any danger.

Actually, no. Infantry automatically have Tank Assault 2 (it's the default). So they have a slim chance to bail out most tanks that they get into an assault with (they have to hit first, and then the tank player needs to roll a 1 for his armor save).

Heavies, with Top Armor 2, will still ignore them, of course - aside from needing to take a motivation test to continue the assault if they get hit.


Of course, pioneer teams, bazookas, panzerfausts, panzerschrecks, PIATs, ATRs, panzerknackers, and anything else that I neglected to mention will have a higher tank assault value.

So spoke to my friend, and decided that while I do like the armor, I'm going to stick to the "spirit" of the original idea I had and I'm going to play a Fallschirmjäger list instead.

Starting at 1000 points I've built this:

Company HQ: (85pts)

Company HQ
Püppchen AT Team

Combat Platoons: (540 pts)

Fallschirmjäger Platoon with 3 Squads & Panzerknackers
Fallschirmjäger Platoon with 3 Squads & Panzerknackers

Weapons Platoons: (230 pts)

Fallschirmjäger Machine Gun Platoon with 2 sections & Panzerknackers
Fallschirmjäger Light Gun Platoon with 2 7.5cm LG40 Recoilless Guns & Panzerknackers

Divisional Support: (145 pts)

Fallschirmjäger Artillery Battery with 2 10.5cm LG40 guns

The entire list are Fearless Veterans. I'm entirely open to suggestions. I swapped out the LIGHT Anti-tank guns at the last minute for the LG40 artillery after I realized the Stielgranate ammo only has an 8" range despite the AT12 value.

I'm not really sold on the artillery, especially with the rule that you have to re-roll hits with 2 guns or less. But I wasn't sure what to invest my 145 points in. I don't have enough to add armor... when we go up to more points I could...

Kinda stuck on that one.

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking I'll go with a full unit of mortars instead.

That said. What are people using for recoilless guns and puppchen?

If you're playing mostly armor I wouldn't run the MG platoon. Maybe add more artillery? Or another AT section.

I just figured having some mortars to bombard or smoke might be beneficial.

But I see what you're saying... I could take out the MG teams and fit in 3 PaK38s.

My primary opponent is fielding a Rifle Company as well... but I am just trying to build an small-ish all-comers list.

You might think about dropping down to 2 sections in your Combat Platoons. While 9 bases of fearless Veterans is tough to root out, its a little overkill. Especially if you need additional support. Also, unless you are facing alot of armor, You might drop the Panzerknackers from your Fallschirmjager platoons and weapon platoons.

If you are facing alot of infantry, then go with the HMG, if not, Id drop them down to 1 section.

That should give you the points to either bump up your Artillery and add some beefy AT. Or maybe take a look at a stug platoon. Stuggs have good AT capability as well as gives them Mobility to put that AT where ever it may need to go. Static AT is not always great.


Where are you drawing your list from?