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obsidianaura wrote:

Also the Emperor didn't take the Fists back to Terra with him they were still on their way to Terra during the Istvann III massacre.

They'd been held up by warp storms

Yup, it's how Dorn picked up the Eisenstein and Garro et al.

It's after this and Dorn bringing the news to Terra and the Emperor that he starts fortifying the Palace.

I've wondered about this as well on occasion.

I keep coming back to it being a precaution whilst he worked further on webway "hacking", as well as also a sensible move -- and for the record the Fists weren't the only Astartes on Terra at that time. Presumably though they were the ones with the most significant numbers.

The other thing I wonder if it was also perhaps anything to do Mars/the Adeptus Mechanicus. Seeing as the Emperor knew about the C'tan -- indeed had used their very existence for his own benefit -- he would presumably have been aware of what the Imperium might encounter "out there" -- the Word Bearers got to Cadia for example. Someone somewhere was bound to start to piece together some of the pieces.

Plus it would seem reasonable to assume that his Intelligence services/spies were at least aware of there being some...hmm... discontent ... amongst parts of the Ad. Mech. So it would make sense to have a substantial force to hand to help in any trouble there.

SilverMK2 wrote:He wanted the palace enlivened with a splash of yellow armour.

Was one of my theories as well, but I figured the Custodians would be enough for this...

chaos0xomega wrote:While a good theory, the Custodes already effectively fulfilled the same role (yes, they were more than just bodyguards), and in any case the Imperial Fists would have been a poor choice for this. In Nemesis, we see that Rogal Dorn cares very little for politics, intrigue, and cloak and dagger type stuff. Furthermore, the Emperor was supposed to be effectively immortal, making the need for such a force questionable. In fact, the Custodes in the 41st Millenium have effectively fulfilled the role of the Praetorian Guard, it can be argued that the idea that the Emperor is still alive in large part lives on through them, in that they limit access to Big E, and they have been known to travel out from the Palace in the name of the Emperor to deliver messages/orders in His name.

I don't know the exact reason, but I'm fairly certain there were no covert reasons for Big E bringing the IF back with him. He ordered them to fortify Terra AT Ullanor... BEFORE the Heresy, so the question is why would the Emperor order Terra to be fortified before the Heresy but well after the Crusade had started? Personally, I think it was simply a matter of consolidating power, the same reason Big E handed the reigns of the Crusade to Horus. He was carving out an Empire, he needed to prepare a government to oversee what was quickly becoming the strongest galactic power. With such power, Terra would undoubtedly become a target for enemy factions, so fortifying it would be the logical solution.

I largely agree, particularly the bolded part. However, I still think some of this just doesn't add up. He could've fortified Terra at any point, with size of the Imperium now, let alone then, Terra's incredibly hard to reach. It's not exactly vulnerable fortified or not... I just wonder how much of this is coincidence? Maybe it's just me though...

TheTemplar wrote:Just an idea but..

Maybe the Emperor knew about a race far more deadly then any they had ever faced before, one which could wipe out entire galaxies, leaving nothing behind but charred remains of once beautiful planets...(sound familiar?)

So maybe the Emperor brought the Fists back to Terra to construct what were giant defences from an onlookers perspective (which they were) but also had a separate use (e.g. huge teleporters which accessed the webway or warp without being any danger to use)

Food for thought

Considering the size of the Legions/Great Crusade at that point, I can't imagine the 'Nids being a particularly significant threat. Then again, I wonder if a Psyker like the Emperor could've missed the imprint of the Hive Mind?

The latter part of your post is what I was wondering as well. He kept his plans for the Webway secret and the fortifications may have just been a cover up for keeping any gribblies in, as well as out?

obsidianaura wrote:Don't think they would be able to access the craftworlds through the webway. The eldar have special safe guards on their webway entrances.

-------

Also the Emperor didn't take the Fists back to Terra with him they were still on their way to Terra during the Istvann III massacre.

They'd been held up by warp storms

I agree, but it could access Crone Worlds/Eldar planets, cause less reliance on the Warp (and therefore Chaos) and ultimately 'hacking' the Craftworlds would've probably been the next logical step?

As far as I remember, some of the Imperial Fists were held up returning to Terra, but the majority were all ready on Terra building the fortifications IIRC.

reds8n wrote: I've wondered about this as well on occasion.

I keep coming back to it being a precaution whilst he worked further on webway "hacking", as well as also a sensible move -- and for the record the Fists weren't the only Astartes on Terra at that time. Presumably though they were the ones with the most significant numbers.

The other thing I wonder if it was also perhaps anything to do Mars/the Adeptus Mechanicus. Seeing as the Emperor knew about the C'tan -- indeed had used their very existence for his own benefit -- he would presumably have been aware of what the Imperium might encounter "out there" -- the Word Bearers got to Cadia for example. Someone somewhere was bound to start to piece together some of the pieces.

Plus it would seem reasonable to assume that his Intelligence services/spies were at least aware of there being some...hmm... discontent ... amongst parts of the Ad. Mech. So it would make sense to have a substantial force to hand to help in any trouble there.

Yes, I agree Red. I think ultimately it was a precaution and a correct one at that. However, to me at least, it seems a bit conveniently timed; he'd just started work on the Webway, Horus had just taken his first step towards Traitordom and the Imperium was stronger than ever/Terra safer than ever?

Better late than never with the fortifications of course, but I still think some of it seems a bit... 'off'.

I do completely agree with the additional astartes (none other than the IF massed though?) and threat of the Ad. Mech though.

reds8n wrote: I've wondered about this as well on occasion.

I keep coming back to it being a precaution whilst he worked further on webway "hacking", as well as also a sensible move -- and for the record the Fists weren't the only Astartes on Terra at that time. Presumably though they were the ones with the most significant numbers.

The other thing I wonder if it was also perhaps anything to do Mars/the Adeptus Mechanicus. Seeing as the Emperor knew about the C'tan -- indeed had used their very existence for his own benefit -- he would presumably have been aware of what the Imperium might encounter "out there" -- the Word Bearers got to Cadia for example. Someone somewhere was bound to start to piece together some of the pieces.

Plus it would seem reasonable to assume that his Intelligence services/spies were at least aware of there being some...hmm... discontent ... amongst parts of the Ad. Mech. So it would make sense to have a substantial force to hand to help in any trouble there.

I can agree with that.
But I think the Imperial fists might of gone out to other parts of the imperium to see if they were needed to come back into the fold and such.

SilverMK2 wrote:
Yes, I agree Red. I think ultimately it was a precaution and a correct one at that. However, to me at least, it seems a bit conveniently timed; he'd just started work on the Webway, Horus had just taken his first step towards Traitordom and the Imperium was stronger than ever/Terra safer than ever?

I don't think he had just started working on the webway, I think it had been a big project of his up until the Great Crusade. He knew the perils of the warp and the webway was one way around it. I think it just got sidelined. He must've found out a great deal on his travels about certain stuff and maybe that's why he went back. He had found enough to complete the project. He was fairly close to it's completion as far as I am aware from what we have in Collected Visions and a Thousand Sons, just that Magnus actions pretty much destroyed them. It's a lot of 'thinks' I know

A lot of it seems coincidental indeed but I think it was a to make sure that Terra was ready for the day that the Webway was ready to be used. So the Emperor had the Custodes, but they are his personal guard, not Terra's itself.

It's a fair few years before Horus fall from what I can make out as well.

I recognise it would've been a long-term plan and not something he suddenly decided to do on Ullanor and I can fully see the reasoning behind it. However, I don't think the Emperor actually started constructing the Throne/Webway until he went back to Terra during the crusade...

But yes, I agree with the idea that he was performing outward and inward defences; to keep things in and out and that seems to be the most common suggestion here. Maybe he did do it simply with the intention of safeguarding for the activation of the Golden Throne? Maybe he knew much more than he's letting on?

I dunno. That's why I'm asking.

Oh yeah without a doubt, I think he definitely knew more than he let on. The whole Chaos Gods thing being one of them.

But that would be one of the reasons to start the Webway project like yesterday. If what the Dark Gods have been saying has any bearing then we know they have had some dealing with the Emperor before the Primarch Project.

He had also had some dealings with the Eldar, if Eldrad is to be believed.

The Golden Throne seems to be connected to the Astronomicon so I would've thought that it would've been set up around the same sorta time. But yeah, that doesn't mean that the webway project was started at the same time though.

Pilau Rice wrote:Oh yeah without a doubt, I think he definitely knew more than he let on. The whole Chaos Gods thing being one of them.

But that would be one of the reasons to start the Webway project like yesterday. If what the Dark Gods have been saying has any bearing then we know they have had some dealing with the Emperor before the Primarch Project.

He had also had some dealings with the Eldar, if Eldrad is to be believed.

The Golden Throne seems to be connected to the Astronomicon so I would've thought that it would've been set up around the same sorta time. But yeah, that doesn't mean that the webway project was started at the same time though.

Agreed. He had so much that we do not know, if only we could see it from his point of view.

reds8n wrote: I've wondered about this as well on occasion.

I keep coming back to it being a precaution whilst he worked further on webway "hacking", as well as also a sensible move -- and for the record the Fists weren't the only Astartes on Terra at that time. Presumably though they were the ones with the most significant numbers.

The other thing I wonder if it was also perhaps anything to do Mars/the Adeptus Mechanicus. Seeing as the Emperor knew about the C'tan -- indeed had used their very existence for his own benefit -- he would presumably have been aware of what the Imperium might encounter "out there" -- the Word Bearers got to Cadia for example. Someone somewhere was bound to start to piece together some of the pieces.

Plus it would seem reasonable to assume that his Intelligence services/spies were at least aware of there being some...hmm... discontent ... amongst parts of the Ad. Mech. So it would make sense to have a substantial force to hand to help in any trouble there.

With the discontent in the admech i figured he'd just crush it heavily, the Emprah's got a heavy handed tactic with these kinds of things, (Looks at what he did to Logar)

Asherian Command wrote:
Agreed. He had so much that we do not know, if only we could see it from his point of view.

This is something that I would really like!

I would like to know the true reason behind Nikaea, why did he wait so long to reprimand Lorgar, why he let Magnus dabble with the warp unchecked.

Theories on this from myself are mostly peer pressure from the Primarchs and not being able to ignore his sons. Mortarion and Russ about Nikaea and Guiiliman in regards to Lorgar. I think that the Emperor was trying to be a good father, but with so many sons, it's fairly difficult to keep them all happy.

Just Dave wrote:

TheTemplar wrote:Just an idea but..

Maybe the Emperor knew about a race far more deadly then any they had ever faced before, one which could wipe out entire galaxies, leaving nothing behind but charred remains of once beautiful planets...(sound familiar?)

So maybe the Emperor brought the Fists back to Terra to construct what were giant defences from an onlookers perspective (which they were) but also had a separate use (e.g. huge teleporters which accessed the webway or warp without being any danger to use)

Food for thought

Considering the size of the Legions/Great Crusade at that point, I can't imagine the 'Nids being a particularly significant threat. Then again, I wonder if a Psyker like the Emperor could've missed the imprint of the Hive Mind?

The latter part of your post is what I was wondering as well. He kept his plans for the Webway secret and the fortifications may have just been a cover up for keeping any gribblies in, as well as out?

Precisely

Dorn: Why are we fortifying the palace?

Emperor: How should I know, do you think I'm psychic or something?

After reading Prospero Burns it could be that Terra wasn't as Unified as had been implied.

The Emperor had the Custodes as his bodyguards but there wouldn't be anything quite like have siege specialists available to hold off any rebel forces while you organise a counter attack.

The conversation with the Covenant (was that their name?) in Legion implies that the Emperor knows that the events that actually happened between the 30th and 40th are going to happen and he's chosen they only route through which mankind survives.

Thus it would make sense for the Emperor to be fortifying prior to the Heresy as he's already aware it's going to happen.

I may be mistaken but didn't Dorn himself tell Loken that he was going back to Terra with his legion to defend it until they were called to rejoin the crusade. And that was before Horus turned so did the big E have some type of premonition of

things to come between he and the forces of chaos be it daemons coming through the warpways or one of his fallen children?

I do recall that from Horus Rising BloodFrenzy. I think you're right.

Hmm

The Grey Knights were formed shortly after the Horus Heresy.

I'm just wondering if the IF were inteded for a similar role and used to clear the daemons from the webway then develop defences to allow safe travel through the webway.

Perhaps when Dorn and his fists became unstable at the end of the heresy the Grey knights were developed with the ideas that would have been used on the IFs.

Baragash wrote:The conversation with the Covenant (was that their name?) in Legion implies that the Emperor knows that the events that actually happened between the 30th and 40th are going to happen and he's chosen they only route through which mankind survives.

Thus it would make sense for the Emperor to be fortifying prior to the Heresy as he's already aware it's going to happen.

Yes, that's a theory, as well as the one where the Emperor knew all about the heresy and Horus fall and used it to get godhood yadda yadda yadda.

But really? ... I don't buy this at all. If he wanted to save the human race, and above all else he does, why even make Horus Warmaster, if he know's whats going to happen? The Heresy was one of the, biggest if not the biggest, cause of loss of human life that the Imperium has known.

The Chaos Gods showed each Primarch that fell the truth of what the outcome would be if they turned traitor, not if they remained loyal.

I think the Emperors foresight was awesome, but the masters of the Warp are the Chaos Gods and essentially show the Emperor what they want him to see. If this case I guess it was nothing. Like the did with the Cable through the Acuity, but in this case, it was the same as what they showed the Primarchs.

Chaos is all about lies and half truths. I don't think the Imperial Fists returning had owt to do with the Heresy, I think it is to do with Terra not being the safest of places and the Webway gate that the Emperor was working on.

The most important reason I could think of for the Emperor having wisked the Imperial Fists of to Holy Terra is that they are the greatest of the Legions when it comes to fortifications and siege warfare, well combined with the Iron Warriors, and it is they who were the greatest at making and defending fortifications which carries on into the Imperial Fists chapter even today.

Pilau Rice wrote:If he wanted to save the human race, and above all else he does, why even make Horus Warmaster, if he know's whats going to happen? The Heresy was one of the, biggest if not the biggest, cause of loss of human life that the Imperium has known.

Baragash wrote:The conversation with the Covenant (was that their name?) in Legion implies that the Emperor knows that the events that actually happened between the 30th and 40th are going to happen and he's chosen the only route through which mankind survives.

The implication in Legion is that he's "pulled a Farseer"* and chosen the outcome that is the "best" available for humanity.

*No, not like that

Could it not be much simpler than that? surely the emporer knew human nature and knew that at some point somebody would try attack/overthrow/be generally awkward or that something would may accidentally go wrong?
Nothing says "im in charge" (even if you already are) like a fortress with defenses on an epic scale does it
Maybe it was just time to get the defense specialists (the fists) to do this for him

Just my opinion anyway


Dan

Baragash wrote:The conversation with the Covenant (was that their name?) in Legion implies that the Emperor knows that the events that actually happened between the 30th and 40th are going to happen and he's chosen they only route through which mankind survives.

Hmm.. I don't think that's quite right.

Almost

reds8n wrote:

It used to be the case -- in the RoC era anyway -- that the Emperor's precognition abilities stretched only as far as about the start of the HH, perhaps then it was some underlying fear of what was to happen that led him to recall the Fists back. As a standby or insurance policy.

Indeed

Aboard Horus' battle barge by Bill King
He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

reds8n wrote:

Spoiler:

Of course the rebellion failed, despite the Alpha Legion's aid, dooming everyone.

The Chaos Gods got what they wanted