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Noir Eternal wrote: The FAQ just doesn't clearly state to treat damaged Necrons as part of the unit.

Necron Codex, page 21, last bullet point on the page about halfway through the paragraph; "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll be back' roll..."
So you are saying that regardless of what the Codex says, models that are "in the unit" are not "part of the unit"???

Noir Eternal wrote:Your FAQ post only mentions that a Unit's damaged Necron's may get an additional WBB roll if teleported through the Monolith, not to treat downed Necrons as part of the unit. Which is still quite different. There is nothing in the FAQ nor Codex that states you should treat damaged Necrons as part of the unit while they are down.

See above!

Noir Eternal wrote:Even if they were to be considered part of the unit while they are down they are still to be ignored for all game purposes. So SA says to remove the unit thats fine. I can still ignore it since the Codex says I can ignore all normal game events, which SA is one.

So according to you, models that are "in the unit" are "part of the unit" to be able to be transported through a Monolith for another shot at WBB, but they are not "part of the unit" if the unit is removed be a sweeping advance?!?!
Talk about having your cake and eating it too!
If the downed models are "part of the unit" for one, they are "part of the unit" for all.
You can't have it both ways!

time wizard wrote:
So according to you, models that are "in the unit" are "part of the unit" to be able to be transported through a Monolith for another shot at WBB, but they are not "part of the unit" if the unit is removed be a sweeping advance?!?!
Talk about having your cake and eating it too!
If the downed models are "part of the unit" for one, they are "part of the unit" for all.

Noir Eternal wrote:
Necron Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it is damaged. Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring distances, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - they are debris only."

Necron Codex, page 21, last bullet point on the page about halfway through the paragraph; "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll be back' roll..."
So you are saying that regardless of what the Codex says, models that are "in the unit" are not "part of the unit"???

This is why I hate this codex....

Its not about having my cake and eating it to its about following the rules the best any of us can. If you want my opinion on it, it normally doesn't matter too much when your Necrons units start falling to CC since that normally means something has already gone wrong and Phasing Out isn't far off. Even if you do get a few Necrons back after a SA.

The Codex gives the WBB rule stating that you should ignore ALL game events for damaged Necrons. At this point this should be the starting point of how you follow any rule codex, rulebook, or otherwise when dealing with them.

There are then rules governing on how you bring Necrons back to life via WBB, the Monolith being one of them. The Necron Monolith entry does state to treat damaged necrons that were in the unit and eligible for their WBB roll to make an additional roll after they have been ported through the Monolith. However, this does not mean that this overrides the first rule that all damaged Necrons are ignored for all game purposes when not dealing with Necrons teleporting through the Monolith. The FAQ was only a clarification and didn't really change anything on how the rule was played.

So treat them as part of the unit, it doesn't matter, SA is a normal game event and the codex says to ignore it. I am not trying to argue that Necrons need it and that we should be nice to them, again, I want to be clear on the rules just as you do. However, I would still say to ignore them for ALL purposes except when the codex directly tells you not to.

It would seem here that Necrons can have their cake and eat it to, however, this isn't exactly a game breaking rule either way

You're right that it is not a game breaker. I follow the rules as well.
Whether or not SA is a 'normal game part', the fact remains that SA says it removes the unit unless there is a specific rule that disallows it.
WBB does not specifically say that downed Necrons ignore SA.
So downed Necrons that are "in the unit" that gets destroyed by SA get destroyed right along with it.
That's following the rules.

I would say that I am also following the rules the way I read the RAW
When I have a rule that says to ignore everything then that would easily cover SA. I don't need a rule to disallow SA because I have one that says to just ignore everything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what nvm that question since I completely forgot the FAQ says to move them with the unit which just makes no sense what-so-ever......

At this point I honestly just think its a question about whats the right thing to do as the RAW with FAQ just doesn't work. Kind of like the Monolith gets minus -1 shots for each weapon destroyed.

With the FAQ it would seem the Intent would be to remove the entire unit.
But I still stand that the RAW says ignore all game events, including SA. Just no longer Falling Back since it was FAQ'd

Noir Eternal wrote:You know what nvm that question since I completely forgot the FAQ says to move them with the unit which just makes no sense whatsoever......

It makes sense when you consider that the downed Necrons are still part of the unit.

And IIRC, even in the last edition of rules, sweeping advance even referred to WBB as a rule that did not ignore the unit being destroyed in SA.

I agree but disagree at the same time.

I agree that the Codex for WBB should have been much clearer with the way its worded. By RAW you ignore all events period. SA would be one of them. Falling back just happened to be FAQ'd

However, it would seem that GW wanted you to still treat them as a normal unit for all game purposes. Which should have been FAQ'd as a WHOLE rather than mentioning individual events, like falling back and teleporting allowing the Codex to still take precedence everywhere else.

I will try to find the rule that your talking about because I do have rules edition 3 and 4 and can PM you later about them to better understand the way its supposed to be played. However, I am leaning towards just treating them as a unit now with SA because it does make sense from a RAI for RAW stand point.

I know RAW doesn't always work since by RAW the Monolith gains shots from Weapon Destroyed results. Its all about playing a good mix of RAI and RAW and playing the way the game makes the most sense

Edit: Just added a sentence

The wording of WBB is misleading, I'll grant you that. It says that the "debris" models are ignored for all purposes, but then the Monolith rules go right on to say that they're still considered part of the unit for teleporting. So clearly they're NOT actually ignored for all purposes.

The FAQ goes further and confirms that the "debris" models are still associated with the unit for Falling Back purposes.

We have multiple clear rules explicitly indicating that the downed models are still part of the unit. We have one vague rule implying that they're not. Which takes precedence? IMO clearly the Monolith and FAQ answers.

If the downed models are still associated with their unit, then they necessarily must be removed by a Sweeping Advance.

SA specifies that it cannot be prevented by any special rule, unless that rules SPECIFICALLY states that it prevents SA. Which WBB does not.

EDIT: END OF DISCUSSION

So I did indeed have time to go back and look through the 4th edition rules and re-read some of the older threads on this issue.
Normally I say its always safe that Codex trumps BRB unless there would be a good reason for it to be the other way.

In 4th edition the BRB specifically stated WBB may not be used against SA. Because the rules I quoted, "Damaged Necrons may always be ignored for game purposes", is a sub-rule within the WBB special rule. The BRB would most certainly trump the Codex in this specific instance.

In 5th edition they may have gotten rid of the sentence stating WBB specifically, however, they still mention that no Special Rule what-so-ever may be used against it unless that special rule specifically mentions SA.

So although WBB would allow you to normally ignore ALL game events and may be used as a general rule that trumps ALL other BRB events. This specific event can't be avoided because SA specifically tells you that all special rules are disallowed.

So in General, damaged Necrons may ignore ALL in game events, SA though, is just one of those events that says to ignore all special rules in your codex.



I can agree that the intent very much so points to just treat downed Necrons as part of the unit for all normal game events. I can agree for playing that way since it makes sense from the RAI to play the rules the right way stand point.

By just the wording of RAW though I don't consider the rules for WBB to be vague in the slightest, just contradicting.

The Codex tells you to Ignore damaged Necrons for all purposes first, and then gives you rules to break that number 1 rule of ignoring the game for all purposes. Its not Vague at all, it clearly says to just ignore them. Think of the number one rule to always ignore them as a general BRB rule that can be broken by the codex.

Where the game breaks itself it that is gives you contradicting reasons to break that number 1 rule. Can we break it for teleporting the damaged models? Yes, the Codex says you can.
Until the FAQ came out there was no reason to move damaged Necrons while the unit was falling back. The Number 1 rule of ignoring the game took precedence. And I wouldn't even agree with the RAI until the FAQ pointed out that we can break the number 1 rule by moving damaged models during falling back. I would just leave them where they lay

Now we have SA which says to ALWAYS remove an entire unit. WBB doesn't stop that as it was never meant to. However, you have the rule that Damaged Necrons are to be ignored for all purposes during the course of the game, not vague, but very clear and the Codex super-cedes the BRB.

The rule should have just never been written in the codex and GW should have FAQ'd it a long time ago. This isn't the case however so we are left with rules that contradict each other.

Agreed that it's a mess.
Some have suggested just giving the entire army feel no pain, but that would eliminate certain WBB requirements, like having to have a model of the same type within a certain range and could unbalance the entire Necron force.
The only bright light is that in an interview in WD #370, Jes Goodwin said that he and Phil Kelly were given permission to start from scratch on the Dark Eldar Codex if they wanted. Maybe the writers of the next Necron Codex will have the same latitude.

Just pray it won't be Cruddace

Feel no pain is as common as dirt in the game right now, with almost every newer codex having a FNP dispenser. It would take a lot of the character from the Necrons (who used to be the ONLY people who could do this stuff), but in gameplay would make them a lot more resilient (which they badly need) especially if they remove or alter Phase Out.

Oh this codex has no where to go but up. If they screw up writing this codex it will still probably come out better than what the Necrons have now. I just have high hopes because I actually like the army.

About the FNP switch. I know a lot of us Necron players are scared about the army losing all the fluff, and although there may seem like there isn't any, there is enough there to want it expanded upon and not forgotten about or redone to the point that the Necrons are no longer Necrons.

If the Necron get FNP I am sure they will gain new army wide special rules that will keep them fluffy and stand them apart from other armies. WBB doesn't have to be the staple of the army anymore. It could be something new and exciting. Which is why I am not trying to hold on to WBB. It can stay, and if it does they need to re-write the rules for it. But if it doesn't then there will be other army specific rules to replace it.

Edit: Think Power from Pain




Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:
The only bright light is that in an interview in WD #370, Jes Goodwin said that he and Phil Kelly were given permission to start from scratch on the Dark Eldar Codex if they wanted. Maybe the writers of the next Necron Codex will have the same latitude.

Slight add, sorry I wanted to comment on this.

I really think they will given how old the codex is and how much more fluff and new things needs to be added. This codex didn't get the updates the Space Marines got. They need that much more added to not just their rules, but their fluff as well. I can really expect that we will see some big impressive additions to the army and the fluff

Noir Eternal wrote:
Edit: Think Power from Pain

Power from Pain works for DE because they are a true assault force.
Necrons are more shooty with a few cc type units.
I would like to see them keep WBB, just clear it up as NE said.
Phase out is many times too easy to achieve, would help if it included every unit, not just Necrons.
Would be nice to see them get some kind of transport vehicle, teleporting through a Monolith prevents the particle whip from being used.
Even a Rhino can move, disembark its passengers and shoot.
But this is heading off topic and more into proposed rules!

I meant think Power from Pain because DE got a brand new special rule. Which would be interesting if Necrons got one. Not that Necrons should get something similiar

Necrons need more ways to teleport around, not get inside vehicles. But they do need more options even if its just floating obelisks acting as teleport beacons. And yes we are all way way off topic now.

That DE codex was written by people who actually gave a damn about the Dark Edlar fluff and were willing to come up with cool rules, though.

Take a look at the Nid codex

Unbalanced, several suboptimal to useless units, a S10 antitank cannon that can turn a landraider inside out, but Marines still get armour saves against, Carnifexen almost tripling in points for less options and worse stats...


I'm tentatively hoping for an awesome rewrite with workable, clear rules, some new SCs and a bit more survivability (just losing phase out would help ) but i'm braced agianst the likely result of a new codex:

Monoliths being nerfed (they almost certainly will) or up-priced to 400+ points (just as likely)

Necrons bumping down to 4+ armour so that the Astartes will stop complaining...

Units that cost a fortune to buy being removed wholesale or altered beyond recognition (forcing a rebuy..)

I'll be cautiously optimistic, but GW hasn't had the best track record for upgunning/balancing xenos.

Oh cmon! That's just rumors... No way lith will be 400 pts... Or significally nerfed... I don't think there will be anything like fnp, rending etc... We'll see what they'll do

Ascalam wrote: Unbalanced, several suboptimal to useless units, a S10 antitank cannon that can turn a landraider inside out, but Marines still get armour saves against,

You talking about the particle whip? It's only S9 but AP3 so no armor save for tac marines! Termies would get a save, but not the one under the (AP1) center hole.

I was referring to the Nid codex as an example of a new codex not being up to much. The line above your quote from my post.

The Tyrannofex cannon is S 10, AP 4 , Heavy 2

I'm very fond of the Particle Whip (though S 10 would have been nice) and have no issues with it.

time wizard wrote:

Ascalam wrote: Unbalanced, several suboptimal to useless units, a S10 antitank cannon that can turn a landraider inside out, but Marines still get armour saves against,

You talking about the particle whip? It's only S9 but AP3 so no armor save for tac marines! Termies would get a save, but not the one under the (AP1) center hole.

No he was talking about the Tryannofex within the Tryanid Codex as a referrence to why the Necron codex may come out a failure of a rules update much like the community sees the most of the Tryanid Codex.

Either way we are no longer talking about SA against Damaged Necrons (as we have gone into great detail about the rules interacting there) so lets make a new thread and end this one if we need to talk about upcoming codex's

Edit: Ninja'd Particle Whip is fine, would I like it more powerful? Well Yeah since its supposed to be the most powerful Gauss technology ignoring the armor of all tanks and infantry alike, and is only AP3, however we will see what game balance allows the Particle Whip to become later

Sorry, missed that he was referring to Tyrannofex!

Noir Eternal wrote:so lets make a new thread and end this one if we need to talk about upcoming codex's

This we can completely agree on!

Noir Eternal wrote:

Edit: Ninja'd Particle Whip is fine, would I like it more powerful? Well Yeah since its supposed to be the most powerful Gauss technology ignoring the armor of all tanks and infantry alike, and is only AP3, however we will see what game balance allows the Particle Whip to become later

Well, AP1 if it hits spot on. I'd say that's pretty darn good for anti tank capabilities.

Kevin949 wrote:Well, AP1 if it hits spot on. I'd say that's pretty darn good for anti tank capabilities.

It is, but it has many limitations.
Can't be used if the gauss flux arcs fired, can't be used if the portal is used, can't be used on the turn the monolith deep strikes.
Put the Necrons in a bad tactical position at times.
You need to teleport a unit to get them out of CC or to get needed extra WBB rolls, but that means you can't fire at that pesky tank or the unit of CC specialists moving in.
Other vehicles can move units and fire a weapon, not so the Monolith.
Maybe in the new codex, but we talked about that already!

Well the Monolith Deep Striking rules is one of those that I agree more with the INAT ruling of how to interpret the RAW but ill save that argument for another day

Regardless though the TW is right here. Without two Monoliths, no list can allow them to do all the jobs that they were designed to do. I think increasing their points but also increasing their ability would be a nice change in the new codex

Ya, the deep strike thing is still easily debatable, but not here.

As for the rest of what you said, time wizard, very true....but that's why you don't take just one. Heh.

I totally agree you need two monoliths - 1 is not enough, and 3 is too much of a point sink. If you only have one, that monolith will maybe only fire 1 particle whip the entire game, whereas if you have 2, you might fire around 6 in total the whole game.

It really only takes one good/lucky shot to make it all worth while.