Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, I think Fantasy's system is better than 40k's system.

As for psychic defense, I'd really have to rework each defense individually. The way I see it, it would probably be as a save-- a psychic hood causing every unit within X distance to have a save against psychic powers (but this has a counterbalance of applying to ALL psychic powers, including friendly ones) for example.

Redbeard wrote:Thinking about this a little more, I think a difficulty rating on psychic powers would open up an additional level of creativity for designers too.

Right now, we're told that the Eldar are the best psykers in the galaxy, but we have nothing that makes a farseer any better at using his psychic powers than anyone else. The distinction, currently, is limited to what powers are available, and if you have wargear that gives you a re-roll of some sort.

So, if, in 6th ed, they went to a system where every power was assigned a difficulty rating, that was a direct negative modifier to the psyker's leadership then they went to use their power, not only could they provide a balance for the widely variant game-impact of the various powers, but they'd have another number to manipulate further.

Smite: Difficulty 1. So, the librarian using this is testing on a 9.
Use Force Weapon: Difficulty 1
Gate of Infinity: Difficulty 2.
Null Zone: Difficulty 3

Now, your choice of powers is a lot more interesting. Is Null Zone the auto-include when it's only a little better than 50/50 to cast at all? Are the shots from Smite more valuable as they're fairly dependable?

Taking it a step further, now our Eldar, the "best psykers in the universe", all get a standard +1 to cast their powers.

And this can all work within Yakface's initial proposal for other psykers to be able to exert further penalties on invoking powers, or units with psychic defenses.

I like this option the best- CSM and Eldar have to pay more for the more effective spells whereas the SM, SW and the like do not. There is some limitation on say a CSM sorcerer where I situationally may like Winds of Chaos but I am reluctant to throw points into it. Likewise it seems idiotic to a SM to consider something other than Nullzone or JOTW as opposed to other spells. (hmm do I want to cast 3 S5 shots that need to hit of take d6 S6 shots that autohit?) This leads to idiot choices. Make the less efective spells skill - 0 whereas a skill - 3 spell would be awesome when it works but also not just as dependable as a snowball.

I also feel like granting a psychic defense to armies is ideal -

SM, BA, DA - They all have psychic hood. (Albeit a DA with LD 9 is behind the 8-ball.)
SW - Rune staves and runic icons. (Blanket 4+ or 5+ protection.)
Eldar - Rowarding.
Tyrannid - Shadows

CSM - Nothing? I would like to see them project a 24" radius that makes any roll of a double subject to Perils of the Warp. (i.e. Chaos cannot block your psykers but it will cause a lot more mishaps. )
Khorne - OMG - these people hate psykers they SHOULD have some defence against it. Say 5+ like Rune icons of SW.

DE - They have the haemonculi anti-psycher item but no defenses. Should they?

Tau, BT, Necrons - nothing???? perhaps give the ethereal something to do. Perhaps another thing for necron lords? BT - vows?

I would just make Tau immune to all space magic.

They are easy enough to beat with melee anyway. They don't need another major vulnerability.

Ditto for Necrons.

A for effort, Yakface, but you're going about it all wrong.

Specifically, you don't talk about the audience enough, and you're stuck in the same 'Warhammer' design rut, which is to roll a dice. And, as mentioned, the math doesn't work out for your design specs, exacerbating the problem of unequal distribution of psychic defense.

The audience is the important thing though. Some people in this thread have touched on stuff about psychic powers that aren't popular: Psychic powers that are just another gun, like Smite, and psychic powers that aren't reliable, like Weirdboy and Primaris Psykers. Finally, the Warhammer audience does not like change, they're very conservative, of the sort that appreciates a new special rule that confers Feel No Pain, and recoils from a new special rule that does something unique. The audience profile is thus a preference for reliability, standard effects, and the least amount of change necessary.

Both of your proposals fail to meet this profile.

As a counter-proposal, I suggest that casting psychic powers be changed:

Ordinarily a model would cast a psychic power by making a Leadership test. Various methods of psychic defense include reducing the casting unit's leadership, adding dice to the Leadership test, and canceling on a flat roll.

Instead a single roll is made each game turn, on 2D6, for the amount of casts available. The number of casts are divided evenly amongst the players, with the excess going to the player going second in each turn. At least you will be able to cast one power, and at most six. Psychic powers are cast automatically, unless the opponent wants to make them difficult, by sacrificing their own casts to cause casting models to pass a Toughness test.

During each cast, you roll 1D6 for a Toughness test. If they fail the test, they suffer the Fleshchange, and get replaced by a Chaos Spawn model. If they pass the test, the psychic power is cast as usual.

Effects like Runes of Warding and the Shadow in the Warp add a die to this Toughness test.

So, for example, the Warp yields 7 casts, so player 1 gets 3 casts and player 2 gets 4 casts. If Player 1 casts a psychic power and Player 2 wants to oppose, then Player 2 sacrifices two casts to force two Toughness tests on the casting model.

So, to reiterate:

The number of psychic powers that can be cast each turn is determined at the beginning of each game turn, by rolling 2D6. This is instead of the usual psychic test each time a power is cast. So each player has a set of opportunities to either cast or contest psychic powers.

When a psychic power is cast, the opposing player may sacrifice one or more opportunities to cast psychic powers for the caster to suffer the Perils of the Warp (now a Toughness test) for each opportunity to cast.

So the game for player 1 is to cast enough but leave some psychic defense, while the game for player 2 is to put up enough psychic defense to block powers while leaving some opportunities to cast powers.

Notice that if an army completely lacks psyckers, then it can devote all its casting to the Perils of the Warp. This is thematic for Daemons, Necrons, Orks, variously being flooded with warp energy, dampening warp energy, or generating warp energy. Where the Shadow in the Warp and Runes of Warping make any attempt to contest an automatic minimum of two Perils of the Warp tests. The Runic Weapons, Psychic Hoods, and Blessings of the Blood God are all compatible with this.

I think that this proposal's simplicity, compatibility with existing rules, and resource-based casting management would appeal to Warhammer gamers.

Could be interesting with some tweaking. Not sure I like the fleshchange vs normal perils. Although it would sell a lot of Spawn models.

I think the only issue is that it makes the psychic phase completely even and very psychic powers prone to fail.

Ex: SW vs Guard. SW has one Psyker, Guard none.

Roll a 7 and give SW 3 dice, Guard 4 dice.

SW casts anything, Guard puts all 4 dice on the SW RP and he is pretty much guaranteed to be a spawn. (5 Toughness tests? Ouch).

Why exactly did I pay for the Rune Priest again? It actually makes it counter-intuitive: it is easier to cast a psychic power if there's a psyker in the opposite army, because they'll hold back dice for their own casts after they nuke you.

The Toughness tests are so hard to pass that if any amount of dice come up (i'd say 6 or more) and you go first, you wouldn't want to cast that turn because you are pretty much guaranteed to lose your psyker.

Am I missing something?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Runes and Shadows make one dice of contest 2 for those races?

So on an average roll Nids/Eldar can force from 4 to 6 toughness tests on a psyker per turn at unlimited range?

Yup, the choice of Toughness test was deliberately harsh. Mind you, that's a 5+ to stop a Space Marine Librarian from getting off a psychic power, using a single toughness test.

If the specific parameters are worrisome, retain the previous "Perils of the Warp" instead of the Fleshchange: Lose a wound, no armour, re-rolling Invulnerable. If the psycker takes a wound, no power is cast, if the psycker doesn't take a wound then the power is cast.

Regardless of the specific parameters, you paid for the Runepriest so that you could cast Space Wolf psychic powers. Maybe you should have gone for an HQ that wasn't a Runepriest...

Personally I find it intuitive that more psyckers roiling up the Warp makes it easier to cast, and fewer naturally deaden the Warp (see: Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Orks, etc). This is because the original project was to help out those armies with no psychic defense, and those tend to be armies without psyckers.

Incidentally the Shadow in the Warp only affects models within 12" of a model with that rule. Runes of Warding, on the other hand, are unlimited range, but I'm okay with Eldar having strong psychic defense and dominating psychic powers.

Not just stop him getting it off, but kill him and put a spawn in the enemy lines.

So for each dice that you put toward it you have a 1/3 chance of killing that psyker outright. And on average you will have 3 dice. And as soon as they kill your psyker, you just pour all your dice into theirs.

That just seems a bit too easy. Why not just do away with Psykers?

I wouldn't bring any in this system. Even a 'scroll carrier' wouldn't be necessary, since Runes or a Hood are unnecessary when anyone who brought a psyker blows up the first time they try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and missed the 'retain the wound' part. So on average, a Psyker without an invul will take a wound a turn, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which again means, no casting.

As an Eldar player my input doesn't have a lot of stock. A lot of our viability has to do with our powers, and psy hoods are already a nightmare to me. I think the better answer to this is to get psyker defense wargear to the defenseless armies, too late for IG for quite some time, but they have enough firepower to make up for it.

Well you could play Seer Spawn bomb.

Minimum cost, max size Seer Council in a serpent, jump out in front of the enemy and have them all cast something.

Now there's 10 Chaos Spawn charging their front lines.

Simple way to fix the "insta-spawn" problem; let the first player spend additional casts to block Toughness tests; but make him decide how many casts to use FIRST, when he declares the power.

So say the dice come up 6, so each player gets 3 casts. Player 1, a SW, has a RP; Player 2, a CSM, has two Sorcerors.

Player 1 tries to cast JotWW. He can spend 1, 2, or 3 "casts". If he spends 1, player 2 can spend up to 3 casts to force an equal number of Toughness tests. If he spends 2, Player 2 can only force a number of Toughness tests equal to the number of casts he spends minus one; the first cast goes to negate the defense. If Player 1 spends all 3 of his casts, Player 2 can only force a maximum of 1 Toughness test, and only by sacrificing all of his own opportunities to cast.

This means that against opponents with no psykers of their own, yes, psychic abilities are more difficult. In some cases this makes sense; against Orks, the Waagh! power is suppressing enemy psykers instead of empowering Weirdboys, CSM have the Warp, Necrons have their own creepy anti-psyker abilities. In other cases, of course, it DOESN'T make any sense, but I think that's just the way the cookie crumbles., unless you want to take a step closer to WHFB magic and give players with psykers in their armies a bonus to the casting roll.

DAaddict wrote:
BT - vows?

We already have an anti-psychic vow, the reason no one ever bothers with it is that it's utter rubbish. You get a 5+ save against any psychic powers that targets one of your non-vehicle units. Oh, and we get a 6" scout move on everything if there's a psyker in any of the armies, but (IIRC, as I said no one ever uses it ) we have to move towards the psyker. No defense against Jaws, Null Zone, selfbuffs or the like.

I'm generally of the school of thought of a system similar to WFB would definitely bring an interesting mechanic to play, certainly moreso than psykers generally simply serving as a slightly more complicated Plasma Cannon.

I'm further inclined to think that there's an argument for an elemental-type system. For instance: JOTWW basically creates a hole in the ground that swallows a unit that doesn't jump out of the way. In effect, it's an extreme psychokinesis.

Green Lantern's power ring can't affect yellow things. When fighting the yellow-skinned Mongul, he had to use his ring to manipulate physical objects with which to bludgeon Mongul. Similarly, I see no reason to assume that if a PK user levitates a rock over Khârn's head, or opens a bottomless pit beneath him, his innate ability to dissipate psychic energy should make him immune to the effects of a ton or rubble landing on him simply because it was lifted by mind bullets.

However, starting out from this example, I find myself leaning towards a basic game-wide elemental system. I'm not talking about a Wesnoth-style Firetoughness/Piercetoghness/Impacttoughness/etc profile, but rather give each attack an assigned type from a limited list, and have a couple of USRs that grant resistance or immunity to those types. This would be in addition to, not instead of, the sort of psychic duelling system yakface is advocating.

I feel I'm blabbering here, so let me give some examples.

Offhand, I think pretty much all types of attack in 40K could probably be summed up as Physical, Energy, Toxin, or Aether.

Some examples:

Lascannon, Firepike, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword: Energy.
Krak Missile, Bolter, Scything Talon, Shuriken Pistol: Physical.
Wraithcannon, Vortex of Doom, Doomscythe, Force Weapon: Aether.
Venom Cannon, Splinter Rifle, Chem Cannon, Spore Mine: Toxin.


Aether Immunity: Khârn, Pariahs, Culexus Assassin.
Aether Resistance: Tau, Lord of Change.

Physical Immunity: Wraiths(?)
Physical Resistance: Most all Daemons, Zoanthropes, Imperial Assassins, Harlequins.

Energy Immunity: Eldar Avatar.
Energy Resistance: Most all Daemons, Zoanthropes, Imperial Assassins, Harlequins.

Toxin Immunity: All Necrons, most all completely enclosed vehicles, Eldar Avatar.
Toxin Resistance : Most all enclosed vehicles with frequently exposed crew (Leman Russ), Nurgle Daemons.

Like I say this isn't much more than stream-of-conscousness babbling, but what do others think? Right now we have a growing small minority of units with lists of things they're immune to, and a number of nonsensical invulnerabilities (Khârn is like a psychic black hole, therefore he can levitate over JOTWW) and vulnerabilities (C'tan blades slice through energy fields, therefore then cannot be evaded by Assassins).

I don't envisage this system being perfect, and admittedly it'd mean a complicated transitional period full of errata for all codices, but I do like the idea behind it.

Wow. That'd be a pretty big change.

Great stuff there Yak, honestly love how the psychic powers will cease effecting blanks like the fluff suggests.

By the way, in your rules additions in the OP have Space Wolves listed twice.