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There's some massive defenders-react moves going on between pics 2 & 3.

Well, if a model can't make it, you must move towards a model in btb. Same difference really, except you limit attacks better, which is what I want anyways on the turn I assault.

Jeez, scuddman, sorry you went to all that trouble transcribing rules and taking pictures. All you needed to say is "pull the screen to one side with an assault that only engages two scout bikes." It was a common tactic in WHFB about two editions ago.

Yeah it looks like it would work against a guard player who screens with individual infantry squads--the squad would have a good chance of sticking after losing only 1 or 2 models, and the vehicles behind them wouldn't be able to get away without losing significant firepower.

But it wouldn't work against a blob. Those bikes would be bogged for the rest of the game (with only one attack each after the first round and the guardsmen needing 6's to wound).

I haven't seen a guard list that uses individual infantry squads since the new codex came out. Hopefully one's tactics don't have to depend on the opponent having a weak army build.

The only other army that screens routinely is Tau, and with no armor save on Kroot I guesstimate it would be about a 50/50 chance of the kroot breaking even after only losing 1 or 2 models to the assault from the two scout bikes. The consolidate move would carry the scout bikes within 18" of any suits that were being screened, so hopefully the Tau player would have a backup screening unit in place to stop the bikes for another turn while the suits actually get away. Since crisis suits can travel 12" while still firing to full effect, that would be enough. Broadsides would get caught.

So on the bubble wrapping question, if the point of the bubble wrap is to prevent the turn 1 charge, then it succeeds when the scouts assault the bubble wrap instead of the vehicles. The bubblewrap makes the bike assault escapable, which IMHO is what it's there for.



On the reserve question, 20 bikes would be enough to cover the whole far table edge. Eldar and Dark Eldar wouldn't care, but a mech marine army would have to tank shock.

So hopefully the mech marine player would be smart enough not to shock at one of the two spots where the sergeants are, but would instead drive over one of the ordinary scout models who has, at best, a krak grenade or astartes grenade launcher. Since only models in the path of the vehicle can perform a "death or glory," that means a str6 hit on the front armor.

So predators and vindicators get a free pass. Rhinos have about a 1 in 9 chance of being destroyed off the table, which is more of a risk than I like to take with my transports, but you gotta do what you gotta do. But of course, each failed death or glory causes you to pull a scout bike model, which will open up gaps in the line that later models might be able to drive through.

And of course with each tank shock there's about a 28% chance that the tank-shocked unit will fail morale (at leadership 9) and have to fall back 3d6, which would open a huge gap in the line the first time it happens.

A mech guard army with no bubble wrap would have an even easier time shocking onto a table lined by scout bikes, since a chimera's front armor of 12 is only stopped 1 in 36 times by a krak grenade.

I'm still not persuaded that scout bikes aren't fairly easily countered. Is there something I'm missing?

It's that scout bikes aren't what one is expecting to counter, It's similar to Suicide-Kopts.
The act of selecting Scout Bikes means on is going in with 'krafty trix' if one's opponent doesn't effectively counter these tricks they will win you the game. If they *just* counter the then one should have either removed an offensive option or defensive position. It's up the controlling player however to make these sacrifices something the results in a net point gain (as this is where most games are usually won).

I think you not only make a great point scud but also how many people are going to expect scout bikers in the competative circut this year? I know Ive NEVER seen them used and Im a fairly frequent player. The element of surprise and the opponents lack of inexperience is even enough to make the unit a possibly viable choice for tournaments.

Laughing God wrote:I think you not only make a great point scud but also how many people are going to expect scout bikers in the competative circut this year? I know Ive NEVER seen them used and Im a fairly frequent player. The element of surprise and the opponents lack of inexperience is even enough to make the unit a possibly viable choice for tournaments.

[Grammar Police On]Double negative there, you're saying they lack inexperience, or are not experienced. 'Opponents inexperience' or 'lack of experience' would have been what you were aiming for. No offence intended, just trying to help some for who the language may not be their first.[/Grammar Police Off]

Right, probably I should clarify my claim.

I'm saying that "scout bikes get a turn 1 charge" is not a good reason for taking scout bikes, since the turn 1 charge can always be countered. There may be other reasons for taking scout bikes, but the only way you can have a turn 1 charge is if your opponent lets you have it.

Personally I like to build my armies and tactics to play against the ideal opponent--one who knows all the rules well and all the common tactics, knows my army as well as his own, and one who has a competitively-built army. Those are the players who I have trouble beating, so they're the ones I focus on. A newbie or player who doesn't know what he's doing can be beaten with pretty much any army.

I'm just looking at the original post... it seems we've gone from a couple of small, cheap squads to suddenly a significant portion of your army just to get the scout bikes to work.

The problem I've got with the scenario described in the pictures is that you are giving them their turn 1 to respond. Any assault based squad or flamer unit is going to hurt. It is a good distraction but the rest of your army has to be ready to support the bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You've gone from a cheap add on to changing your entire build.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Jeez, scuddman, sorry you went to all that trouble transcribing rules and taking pictures. All you needed to say is "pull the screen to one side with an assault that only engages two scout bikes." It was a common tactic in WHFB about two editions ago.

Yeah it looks like it would work against a guard player who screens with individual infantry squads--the squad would have a good chance of sticking after losing only 1 or 2 models, and the vehicles behind them wouldn't be able to get away without losing significant firepower.

But it wouldn't work against a blob. Those bikes would be bogged for the rest of the game (with only one attack each after the first round and the guardsmen needing 6's to wound).

I haven't seen a guard list that uses individual infantry squads since the new codex came out. Hopefully one's tactics don't have to depend on the opponent having a weak army build.

The only other army that screens routinely is Tau, and with no armor save on Kroot I guesstimate it would be about a 50/50 chance of the kroot breaking even after only losing 1 or 2 models to the assault from the two scout bikes. The consolidate move would carry the scout bikes within 18" of any suits that were being screened, so hopefully the Tau player would have a backup screening unit in place to stop the bikes for another turn while the suits actually get away. Since crisis suits can travel 12" while still firing to full effect, that would be enough. Broadsides would get caught.

So on the bubble wrapping question, if the point of the bubble wrap is to prevent the turn 1 charge, then it succeeds when the scouts assault the bubble wrap instead of the vehicles. The bubblewrap makes the bike assault escapable, which IMHO is what it's there for.



On the reserve question, 20 bikes would be enough to cover the whole far table edge. Eldar and Dark Eldar wouldn't care, but a mech marine army would have to tank shock.

So hopefully the mech marine player would be smart enough not to shock at one of the two spots where the sergeants are, but would instead drive over one of the ordinary scout models who has, at best, a krak grenade or astartes grenade launcher. Since only models in the path of the vehicle can perform a "death or glory," that means a str6 hit on the front armor.

So predators and vindicators get a free pass. Rhinos have about a 1 in 9 chance of being destroyed off the table, which is more of a risk than I like to take with my transports, but you gotta do what you gotta do. But of course, each failed death or glory causes you to pull a scout bike model, which will open up gaps in the line that later models might be able to drive through.

And of course with each tank shock there's about a 28% chance that the tank-shocked unit will fail morale (at leadership 9) and have to fall back 3d6, which would open a huge gap in the line the first time it happens.

A mech guard army with no bubble wrap would have an even easier time shocking onto a table lined by scout bikes, since a chimera's front armor of 12 is only stopped 1 in 36 times by a krak grenade.

I'm still not persuaded that scout bikes aren't fairly easily countered. Is there something I'm missing?

This just goes back to you need to know what to do against what. Against blob squads you shoot with both then assault. 20 scout bikes have 40 twin-linked bolter shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds. Then 40+ more attacks on the charge. \

" Rhinos have about a 1 in 9 chance of being destroyed off the table" This isn't accurate. You're supposed to declare who's in what during deployment. If there are bodies inside the rhino, and the rhino gets stopped, they die with the rhino. Don't forget, immobilize and crew stunned kill the transport.

Oh there's one other critical thing. You comeinto the board piecemeal from reserves, and maybe get the first shot, maybe not. Regardless of which, my scout bikes are right next to you, where they need to be on the 2nd turn.

Once again, you do not need to kill on the first turn. I don't know why you think scout bikes have to first turn charge to be effective. Do you expect your landspeeder typhoons to kill what they shoot at onthe first turn only?


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Wildstorm wrote:I'm just looking at the original post... it seems we've gone from a couple of small, cheap squads to suddenly a significant portion of your army just to get the scout bikes to work.

The problem I've got with the scenario described in the pictures is that you are giving them their turn 1 to respond. Any assault based squad or flamer unit is going to hurt. It is a good distraction but the rest of your army has to be ready to support the bikes.


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You've gone from a cheap add on to changing your entire build.

I've never advocated them as a necessarily cheap build. They can combat squad if you want small squads, but I always recommend 2 squads of at least 9 models each.
That being said, they're supposed to die every game.

Try this from some standard builds:
Razorspam + scout bikes.

Jump marines + scout bikes

Droppods + scout bikes.

Funny enough, the one army I don't think scout bikes compliment that well are rhino marines, because they can't take advantage of the opponent wasting his energy trying to avoid them or the homing beacons/teleport homers they can take.


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Some of your math seems wrong.

Against a chimera, the krak grenade auto hits. You need a 6 (glance) followed by a 6 or a 4. 6 is immobilized, 4 is crew stunned. That's 1/18.

For a rhino, auto hit, 5 is glance, 6 is pen.
On glance, 6 is immobilize, 4 s crew stunned. On pen, 6 is explode, 5 is destroyed, 4 is immobilized, and 2 is crew stunned.

So it's (1/6 * 1/3) + (1/6 * 2/3) = 1/6

A missile launcher shot has worse odds. I'm just saying. And now my opponent has come on piece meal from the back of the board funneled out of position because he's scared of my sergeant? That doesn't suck.

(2/3) (1/2) (1/3) <- have to hit, have to pen, have to roll destroyed, wrecked, and in this case a missle launcher immobilize isn't as devestating the above.


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Flavius Infernus wrote:Right, probably I should clarify my claim.

I'm saying that "scout bikes get a turn 1 charge" is not a good reason for taking scout bikes, since the turn 1 charge can always be countered. There may be other reasons for taking scout bikes, but the only way you can have a turn 1 charge is if your opponent lets you have it.

Personally I like to build my armies and tactics to play against the ideal opponent--one who knows all the rules well and all the common tactics, knows my army as well as his own, and one who has a competitively-built army. Those are the players who I have trouble beating, so they're the ones I focus on. A newbie or player who doesn't know what he's doing can be beaten with pretty much any army.

Good player or not, when the scout bikes haven't deployed yet bcause they infiltrate, it's very difficult to perfectly bubble wrap and still remain in position to grab objectives/present a threat, etc. That extra distraction is good. That's why people used to take fast cav in fantasy, right? I have a very large deployment that ignores most deployment rules and I have scout. So really the effective way to bubble wrap is to circle the wagons in a corner and leave no holes with the bubble wrap. I'm very happy to dictate your deployment for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I should point this out too. It takes a good player to come up with the right counter, but it also take a good player to use scout bikes effectively. They are NOT a point and click unit. You definitely need to kow what you're doing to get uses out of them. THey have a lot of versatility and unusual uses, but they aren't simple effective like a landspeeder typhoon is.

I think they bring a lot to the table if you know how to funnel units or take advantage of things out of position or are very good with outflank.

scuddman wrote:Considering that they are a fast attack choice and cheap, a couple units doesn't really interfere with anybody's army design.

Cheap and doesn't interfere is how you started this thread. Now we are looking at two full squads, probably with toys, and the rest of the army designed around it.

Just sayin.

You don't buy them toys. Don't buy the grenade launcher, no powerfist. Meltabombs only, maybe combi-melta if you think you'll shoot it.

But yeah, I don't think small scout bike squads are any good. In my marine's list, I used to spend about 400 points on 4 typhoon speeders. I've gotten more mileage out of 2 squads of scout bikes.

I think the compromise on bikes, if you are skeptical about scout bikes, is to take attack bikes.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe that's why there's so much resistance. People think of bikes as small and shooty. 1 squad of 5 scout bikes don't do anything though.

scuddman wrote:

This just goes back to you need to know what to do against what. Against blob squads you shoot with both then assault. 20 scout bikes have 40 twin-linked bolter shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds. Then 40+ more attacks on the charge.

Congratulations, you've killed the bubble wrap (assuming they don't have cover and GtG, in which case you kill about 7 with bolters, and a further 8-12 on the charge depending how many power fists. But you still don't get the turn 1 charge, so the bubble wrap did its job.

scuddman wrote:
" Rhinos have about a 1 in 9 chance of being destroyed off the table" This isn't accurate. You're supposed to declare who's in what during deployment. If there are bodies inside the rhino, and the rhino gets stopped, they die with the rhino. Don't forget, immobilize and crew stunned kill the transport.

I'm not forgetting about the passengers dying. But I did forget about being stunned. I did the math in my head on the way to work this morning, so let me try again:

A str6 krak grenade glances an AR11 rhino on a 5, pens on a 6.

On a penetration roll of 5, only a 4 or 6 stops the rhino. So 1 in 18

On a penetration roll of 6, only a 2, or 4+ stops the rhino, so 1 in 9

So overall a 1 in 6 chance (about 17%). Not great, exactly the same as flying through dangerous terrain with a fast vehicle. But still less than the chance that the scout bikes will fail their morale and fall back. And AR13+ vehicles (and speeders) still get a free pass.

So I guess the smart tactic would be to tank shock with the heavy tanks first and hope for the best, and then take your chances after that.

scuddman wrote:
Oh there's one other critical thing. You comeinto the board piecemeal from reserves, and maybe get the first shot, maybe not. Regardless of which, my scout bikes are right next to you, where they need to be on the 2nd turn.

I don't think getting the first shot is a matter of opinion. If you go second and come in from reserves, you get the first shot with anything that comes on the table.

I'm not really addressing the question of what happens on the second turn. I'm only arguing that scout bikes can't get a turn 1 charge unless the opponent lets them.

scuddman wrote:
Once again, you do not need to kill on the first turn. I don't know why you think scout bikes have to first turn charge to be effective. Do you expect your landspeeder typhoons to kill what they shoot at onthe first turn only?

Again, never said that scout bikes need to get a turn 1 charge to be effective. Nor am I claiming that they're useless because they can't get a turn 1 charge. All I'm claiming is that being able to get a turn 1 charge is not a real advantage for them, since they can never get the turn 1 charge if the opponent wants to counter.





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On the question of whether scout bikes are worth taking, I think pretty much anything in the SM codex is worth taking in large numbers (with the possible exception of vindicators). An army built around 2 max units of scout bikes with meltabomb sergeants will be able to be successful. But for 430 points, the army has to be built around those units.

I do the same thing myself with assault marines--30 assaulties and Shrike is an effective block of troops. But most of the time people are thinking about a small unit of 5 and whether that's worth the points, and I generally think that they're suboptimal in that case.

The same goes for scout bikes. I think when most people think of scout bikes, they think of the tiny 75-90 point unit of 3 to use the mines, beacon, or turn 1 threat at a bargain price.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Congratulations, you've killed the bubble wrap (assuming they don't have cover and GtG, in which case you kill about 7 with bolters, and a further 8-12 on the charge depending how many power fists. But you still don't get the turn 1 charge, so the bubble wrap did its job.

So overall a 1 in 6 chance (about 17%). Not great, exactly the same as flying through dangerous terrain with a fast vehicle. But still less than the chance that the scout bikes will fail their morale and fall back. And AR13+ vehicles (and speeders) still get a free pass.

So I guess the smart tactic would be to tank shock with the heavy tanks first and hope for the best, and then take your chances after that.

I don't think getting the first shot is a matter of opinion. If you go second and come in from reserves, you get the first shot with anything that comes on the table.

I'm not really addressing the question of what happens on the second turn. I'm only arguing that scout bikes can't get a turn 1 charge unless the opponent lets them.

Again, never said that scout bikes need to get a turn 1 charge to be effective. Nor am I claiming that they're useless because they can't get a turn 1 charge. All I'm claiming is that being able to get a turn 1 charge is not a real advantage for them, since they can never get the turn 1 charge if the opponent wants to counter.

A blob squad isn't that cheap. How big is the blob squad? Isn't it still a worthwhile first turn charge if it gets rid of a scoring power blob?

Scout bikes come with a sergeant. The sergeant is leadership 9, not leadership 8.

About getting shot...A pred in the corner that doesn't move can shoot all of its guns. A pred moving can shoot one gun. Forcing tank shock and forcing movement isn't inconsequential.

Well, I'm saying the threat of a turn 1 charge is a real advantage, because it forces players to try to counter, and a good player with experience already knows beforehand how to take advantage of specific counter situations. Just the threat of it forces opponents to deploy super conservatively, and considering that 2/3rd of the mission are objectives, the push back and the forced movements aren't inconsequential. A lot of people's counters involve a "bubblewrap" of units in an attempt to pushback the bikes, but usually it just means I kill the bubblewrap on turn 1 and am mostly unharmed and ready to go on turn 2. So they've delayed the inevitable..and lost pieces for time, but theyr'e reacting to me.

I guess I can sum it up as...a lot of shooty mech armies perform poorly when forced to move in pressure situations. Not every mech army is affected, but the top ones are.
Razorspam spacewolves, razorspam blood angels (to a lesser extent), and chimera spam. It essentially forces the parking lot armies to deal with something that can cross the gap quickly and immediately...presenting a threat that they do not have adequate time to fully prepare for or shoot down.

On the question of whether scout bikes are worth taking, I think pretty much anything in the SM codex is worth taking in large numbers (with the possible exception of vindicators). An army built around 2 max units of scout bikes with meltabomb sergeants will be able to be successful. But for 430 points, the army has to be built around those units.

I do the same thing myself with assault marines--30 assaulties and Shrike is an effective block of troops. But most of the time people are thinking about a small unit of 5 and whether that's worth the points, and I generally think that they're suboptimal in that case.

The same goes for scout bikes. I think when most people think of scout bikes, they think of the tiny 75-90 point unit of 3 to use the mines, beacon, or turn 1 threat at a bargain price.

That's pretty spot on. I do think that scout bikes are versatile enough to be incorporated into a lot of different builds, including bike armies, razor spam, droppods, DOA marines, 1st and 10th, shrike drop, shrike rush, etc etc. I don't like the word synergy, but they do have "synergy" with a lot of other space marine units...just not foot tactical marines or rhino tacticals.

scuddman wrote:
Scout bikes come with a sergeant. The sergeant is leadership 9, not leadership 8.

Curse my math-while-driving. I know a scout sergeant is Ld 9, but I counted the outcomes wrong. 19% fail rather than 28%

scuddman wrote:
I guess I can sum it up as...a lot of shooty mech armies perform poorly when forced to move in pressure situations.

This, I find persuasive. It matches my experience more than the autowin claim.

Witzkatz wrote:I was always intrigued by the cluster mines the scouts can lay out prior to the game. They seem to be a useful little psychological warfare instrument that could actually hurt advancing hordes. Especially since those mines disallow cover saves and most hordes have a 6+ armor only...

I was thinking of using them for this benifit since I play a lot of people who rely heavily on use of cover.

You fail leadership 9 on a 10, 11 or 12.
That's 1/36 + 2/36 + 3/36 or 6/36 or 1/6.
36 outcomes on 2 dice rolled together. You roll a 12 on 6, 6
You roll 11 on 6,5 and 5, 6
You roll 10 on 4, 6 6, 4 and 5,5

Any other roll passes

That's 16.7 % no?

This, I find persuasive. It matches my experience more than the autowin claim.

Touche.

scuddman wrote:You fail leadership 9 on a 10, 11 or 12.
That's 1/36 + 2/36 + 3/36 or 6/36 or 1/6.
36 outcomes on 2 dice rolled together. You roll a 12 on 6, 6
You roll 11 on 6,5 and 5, 6
You roll 10 on 4, 6 6, 4 and 5,5

Any other roll passes

That's 16.7 % no?

Yep, that's right. I'm just having math fail today.

So the odds of the scouts failing the morale from tank shock are exactly the same as the odds of the tank not getting on the table. That's interesting.

Cheap and doesn't interfere is how you started this thread. Now we are looking at two full squads, probably with toys, and the rest of the army designed around it.

Just sayin.

Touche as well. I changed my first post to reflect this discussion.

I was thinking of using them for this benifit since I play a lot of people who rely heavily on use of cover.

The evil thing to do is take a combi-flamer. Watch your opponents bubble wrap with vehicles!