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WombleJim wrote:

RiTides wrote:
Ripe for a GW FAQ fix... We can only hope!

You know what I find annoying is that we have debated this AP issue (and that of the banner) for so long and the FAQ will most likely be a simple one word answer, I will feel a little cheated if GW don't offer a more substantial answer than "yes/no".

How will you feel when you wait months for the next FAQ, only to find they don't answer the question at all?

-Matt

To be fair, the 8th ed FAQs have been pretty damn good so far - they've actually answered some useful questions.

Secondly - having a few months between FAQs is a good idea. Gives people time to catch up on things, work out whats what (and what's missing, or has changed!) and hopefully not be too suprised,...

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How will you feel when you wait months for the next FAQ, only to find they don't answer the question at all?

-Matt

If that is the case I feel as though I may break down and curse any God willing to listen

nosferatu1001 wrote:To be fair, the 8th ed FAQs have been pretty damn good so far - they've actually answered some useful questions.

Very true I just hope that GW pay attention to these kind of debates so they know what is needing answered the most, maybe we should all email GW en masse to try and get this one answered

I think the new orc book only has 8 magic items for a reason.
If everybody is using the same list for the bulk of the magic items, GW can say, you both can take the item, so you both need to decide how it works for you.

-Matt

You're probably on the right track with that Matt. I was honestly (pleasantly) surprised when I saw the full list of 8th ed Rulebook magical items and banners. It's quite a diverse list and a good portion of it is actually viable in non-obscure situations.

My problem with the list being fully contained in the BRB is that it looks like all the points values will come from the BRB as new books arrive.

A 4+ ward save is not of equal value to a goblin hero as it is to a Tzeentch Chaos Lord...

Red_Zeke wrote:My problem with the list being fully contained in the BRB is that it looks like all the points values will come from the BRB as new books arrive.

A 4+ ward save is not of equal value to a goblin hero as it is to a Tzeentch Chaos Lord...

I don't think goblins should get discounted items just because they are goblins.
A 4+ ward is a pretty awesome item, and it taking up almost all of a heroes allotment seems right. Mark of Tzeench is old rules, and i sunder costed in the new rules.

For ~80 points, you get a goblin hero, that on average only takes 1 wound from a chaos lord, absorbing a chaos lord for 2 or 3 turns for 80 points is a great deal.
Some of the items will work on some characters better than others; but we have enough items to mix it up quite a bit.



-Matt

Having one list is pretty nice in that GW only has to look at one list in terms of balance and performance. As long as they keep referring back to this list as new books come out, to avoid any obviously stupid combinations, things should be okay.

I'm not sure what I think about most of the magic items being concentrated in the rulebook in the future... will have to chew on that a bit.

Red_Zeke wrote:My problem with the list being fully contained in the BRB is that it looks like all the points values will come from the BRB as new books arrive.

A 4+ ward save is not of equal value to a goblin hero as it is to a Tzeentch Chaos Lord...

I dunno.. seems fine to me.

WTF is that goblin hero doing with a 4+ ward save? How has he not become the king of all goblins with his (now) doubled life-span. What's the average life-span of a goblin anyway? 1 year?

By Normalizing the magic item cost, you do effectively balance it against the army books by creating a scalable neutral point to work from. No matter what name you slapped on the item +1a was always 25 points until this edition, and now... it's only 20 points. Ward-saves were a bit trickier... but 4+ wardsaves tended to run in the 50 point range anyway, so it's not entirely a new concept anyway. Points differences across books for comparable items were rarely more than a 10 point swing.

As to the RAW. I wonder why no-one's suggested that since you can't shoot into combat, it has to be its own separate clausal argument. Known as "nestling" in the debate world.

Ragnar4 wrote:As to the RAW. I wonder why no-one's suggested that since you can't shoot into combat, it has to be its own separate clausal argument. Known as "nestling" in the debate world.

...wait, you mean, as to the original topic of the thread? If so, people have more or less mentioned it, and the argument still fell short, according to the majority.

The argument definintely fell short; it's a nonsense sentence (wrt ranged AP) regardless.

One list in the BRB means far less broken combinations to worry about. The MAIN issues with 7th ed, apart from terrain being a death sentence, were the army books and in part their combinations.

Another nice thing with all the items in one list is you don't need to memorize/look up a huge list of items in various books when playing an unfamiliar army. WoC has so many items it is hard for their players to know what they all do, much less their opponents who have to deal with "Yea, so this puppet lets me pick your miscast." Yea, you can look it up, but it does cut down on a little needless complexity.

Hopefully though there is still complexity when it is needed for adding character and such though. I am a little worried they will swing too far in the other direction.

This is a good point, and one I think I've overlooked. Knowing what items are out there is pretty tough when each book has 50 or so.

They can have my doom rocket when they pry it from my cold dead hands!

...maybe if it was even *as* inaccurate as normal artillery.

One of the issues I've had with 8th is that it fixed problems within army books. I mean, it seems like you should fix the problem before you revamp the situation it's in, in hopes that it won't be a problem any more.

With the sheer volume of FaQ that's been released, it wouldn't have been much different to go back and change stuff around. Item combinations/point costs was a problem, but it should have been resolved, rather than put into a frame that made it less of an issue.

But the difficulties of trying to remember what is what is still more than enough to convince me that this big ol' list of Common items was a good idea.
...will High Elves get to buy them for 5pts less, in future incarnations?

Warpsolution wrote:...will High Elves get to buy them for 5pts less, in future incarnations?

When they kill off Teclis, sure.

streamdragon wrote:They can have my doom rocket when they pry it from my cold dead hands!

Nice . I'd say the same thing about a few WoC daemonic gifts, but unfortunatley they're probably all going away or getting upped in cost in the future- third eye of tzeentch, steam of corruption, and bloodcurdling roar. Of course, they all probably deserve a price hike... but I sure hope we don't lose daemonic gifts entirely for the sake of keeping things neat!

streamdragon wrote:They can have my doom rocket when they pry it from my cold dead hands!

Oh please, how often do you have you doom rocket on turn 2? You warlocks "give" the doom rockets like candy.

-Matt

True. I'm more than happy to give my Doom Rocket away, to anyone who asks.

...just let me light it first.

RiTides wrote:

streamdragon wrote:They can have my doom rocket when they pry it from my cold dead hands!

Nice . I'd say the same thing about a few WoC daemonic gifts, but unfortunatley they're probably all going away or getting upped in cost in the future- third eye of tzeentch, steam of corruption, and bloodcurdling roar. Of course, they all probably deserve a price hike... but I sure hope we don't lose daemonic gifts entirely for the sake of keeping things neat!

Charlton Heston the Warp Engineer? There's a weird idea for a movie

That is exactly what worries me. Not Heston with a tail and rockets, but that they will start stripping out all the items and gifts in favor of 5-8 army specific items, most of which will be over priced for what they do and won't really have the feel of the army. I don't know that I believe GW has a good enough grasp on what abilities and items are good and fun enough to be worth keeping vs. pointless and unused ever. Even though I used WoC as an example, I think there actually are a lot of good, if infrequently used, items in there that could be fun. There are just also a lot of pointless ones. Much more so in the Beastmen book.

I don't mind some good items plus some fun items making a fair sized list, say 20-30 items. I don't much like 20 good/fun things surrounded 40 "Why would I spend points on this ever?" items. I suspect what we will start getting is 8-10 mediocre items, only 2-3 of which are worth taking ever.

I'm sorry, but this all smacks of the old "Nowhere in the rules does it say that Giants CAN'T fly" statement,

GW obviously has their own internally consistent concept of English. Or else they wouldn't insist on stating that something reduces a characteristic by -1. RAW that INCREASES the item by 1.

You'll never see this in a FAQ, as the "F" stands for "Frequently".

Uh-buh?

Did you read this thread?

1- that's essentially the opposite reason for the main argument.

2- Language constantly changes, different places will evolve in different ways until eventually they can't understand each other, blah blah blah. This game will have problems in the rules. It is unavoidable.
And your "subtracting a negative = a positive" is correct. But we ignore that, because it's silly.
Like we ignored this, because it's silly.

So, beyond that, I agree with Wehrkind on the item stuff, but considering the original post of this thread has been well and truly concluded, shall we call it a day?
I just don't want to keep repeating myself, but I also don't want to ignore new-comers, who'll end up thinking I'm a complete jerk.

One last comment; I actually brought up the topic to this thread as a joke between rounds at a local 1000pt tournament. One guy actually took me seriously and considered telling his Dark Elf opponent thus. Luckily, I was also talking to the TO, who said that we can enact the rule AW if we allow our opponent to punch us in the groin as hard as they can. Just once, though.

Warpsolution wrote:Luckily, I was also talking to the TO, who said that we can enact the rule AW if we allow our opponent to punch us in the groin as hard as they can. Just once, though.

Can I trade my punch in for a kick? I really think I can get better leverage with an upward movement.

Are your crotch chops AP if they do not actually cause a wound? Or if they actually tear open the scrotum and cause a ball to pop out, does that mean that ipso facto they were AP?

I think it's got to be a punch. No one would ever want to trade, otherwise. It's only -1 armour; not worth some guy punting you in the groin. But a punch? Well, if it might decide the outcome of the game...

They're AP if your opponent was wearing a cup, but he falls over gasping anyway.

Well put sir.