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@Augustus I don't get you. You claim to be a good Tournament player, but you seem to have forgotten about the fact that tournaments are all about politics, you have to placate your opponents. I tabled my first and last opponents in massacres, but not only did they max me out, but they voted for me in all categories. The differance between power gamers and good tournament gamers is the soft scores. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you win a GT purely on painting scores? When there were people with much higher battle scores?

You also say that my list can't deal because I couldn't win three, well my second game was 3 turns and a hundred point differance, with all my assult units in close combat and one assult phase from a massacre.

I feel that your list can't handle when you consider it all powerful and yet you only won your first game do to your opponents enhaced warrior squad giving up its points for free.

Now dont confuse me for a "fluff" nutter or what not, because I dont believe in comp and I hate that painting scores are subjective; case in point you don't find my army "exceptional" yet I got maxed out in all painting scores, and also the fact that I felt that your army was quite dull. But that is due to my opinions in army painting. Your individual models were done well, but did not stand out, I like striking. All subjective.

And you cant for a second say I took your trophy. There were 3 people tied for first, and the other 2 had three wins. The deciding factor was sportsmanship, which again I had maxed out. Now I do feel that battle score should have decided that, but each tournament is differant, and you have to play to that.

Just so you know, and it may give you reason why your soft scores were low, you have a reputation of being an poor sport and dinging your opponents when you lose. Karma? Just Deserts? I don't know. I haven't played you, and I don't prejudge. I will be at the Air Force Academy RTT. Hope to see you there, or maybe at Chicago for adepticon. My group of gamers is going for all the events. Check us out www.40kwreckingcrew.com

Side note: When is the AFA tournament again?

April 15. You need to sighn up ASAP cause there are only 50 slots and they will not open more. It's $15.

Couldn't disagree with you more. People shouldn't max everyone on everything. People should score honestly, because let me tell you: for as much time as I spend converting and painting my armies, if Jackass Kid gets the same painting score as I do for slapping three colors and green flock on his models, I'm taking the guy who gave him that score outside and kicking the crap out of him...

Well, i'll be at AFA, i will tell you right now that i have and will continue to max my opponents out on every catogory (bassed on sportsmanship) even if their army is painted a 10th as nice as yours. Whos to say he didnt spend as much time on his models as you have...what if just isnt as good as you but spends as much time on it as you? If you cant see the validity in that then i will be out-side waiting for you to kick the crap outta me...or pass out from exhaustion trying to kick the crap outta me.

Love ken

A player comes here and complains angrily that because of sore losers, whiners and bad sports, somebody else went home with 'his' trophy?

Among my people, we call that irony.

I have been to pretentious when I wrote: "You went home with my trophy."

Darkness writes:

And you cant for a second say I took your trophy. There were 3 people tied for first, and the other 2 had three wins. The deciding factor was sportsmanship, which again I had maxed out. Now I do feel that battle score should have decided that, but each tournament is differant, and you have to play to that.

After due consideration I'd like to amend my misstatement, and elaborate a little.  Instead I say all the players who went 3-0 were cheated out of their opportunity to win.  Some of which could certainly have played better games than I that day, I don't know.  But a lucky match up, (with forgiving people ready to loose and smile) made a 2-1 competitior the high score.  I think other people went 3-0, I dont know the scores and I don't really want to.  But doesn't it strike you as odd, that the overall award goes to someone who didnt win 3 games?  It certainly feels like a shame when it happens.  If the scoring system stays the same perhaps you will get to experience it.

I suppose the root of the problem is that there just isnt enough time to play an elimination style event in a reasonable timeslot so something will always have to compensate for victory record ties.  But when the compensation makes higher winning ratio competitors come out lower isn't that overdone? 

Darkness writes:

And you cant for a second say I took your trophy. There were 3 people tied for first, and the other 2 had three wins. The deciding factor was sportsmanship, which again I had maxed out. Now I do feel that battle score should have decided that, but each tournament is differant, and you have to play to that.

I suppose so. in the past I have done that (played to the tourney weighting scores).  In fact I have followed the controversy for years, and come around full circle, I use to believe in soft score and comp and all the rest, but the experiences I had at tournaments started changing my mind.  You'd be surprised how regional and local a definition of fairness, cheese or whatever one wants to call it really is.  WHo can say? It is not objective.  I'd like to emphaisze my prior post about having seperate awards for general, players choice, painting and sportsman.  Each judged exclusively by their category.

not only did they max me out, but they voted for me in all categories. The differance between power gamers and good tournament gamers is the soft scores. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you win a GT purely on painting scores? When there were people with much higher battle scores?

I did win a GT by painting score weight. I have come to regret it somewhat.  I really enjoyed the event at the time, but anyone can look online and see the scores that I got, because of painting. At the time, thats how it was settup.  I thought it was good then because I always do custom work, but now a 3 color army is the same as an NMM shaded custom sculpt display board, and for a tournament, I think thats ok.  I should have got a best painted award then, and someone else should probably have won overall.  I'll admit, I don't think painting weighted over anything else is in the spirit of a tournament  or more specifically, a best overall award, at least overall should be weighted equally in all categories.  But it was a judged event, and those were the rules. I can't change it.

xtapl

You went home with my trophy.  Come on, D. You are above sour grapes.

Thanks for the reminder.  I didn't mean to come off as a tyrant, but perhaps it's to late for those who only know me online.  I hope not.  I like a challenge, and a good clean game and I certainly hope that readers can distinguish desire for justice from envy.

Ken writes:

so angry!!!! god who cares....sure its a great hobby, maybe even the most rewarding in the world. But when it comes down to it, we're still a bunch of grown men playing toy soldiers!

Yea, and the superbowl is a bunch of grown men playing with a pigskin and Nascar is a bunch of grown men playing with cars.  There is no substitute for Integrity and fairplay at any level, in any meeting of champions.

I am happy to move figs around the table, (obvious winning is still the objevtive) but im not bitter about anyones comp or whatever...i just think everyone should max everyone on everything....cuz unless you're a jackass... comp, theme, painting...they dont matter.

I think we are of the same mind then.

Sportsman ship always does though...anyway we'll see you at adepticon and hopefully we'll play you in the finals. and we'll see how you do against the latd

Outstanding, a challeneg with panache! I like it, perhaps we will.  Honestly I love to hear about another Colorado team going, we should meet and have a meal there or maybe even before we go!  Good luck to you sir.

As for the LATD, in earnest, I aplaud everyone who plays non MEq armies!

3skullz writes:

max my opponents out on every catogory

I can understand fthe logic that leads to this conclusion, I have considered it myself, but...

(bassed on sportsmanship)

based on sportsmaniship?

even if their army is painted a 10th as nice as yours. Whos to say he didnt spend as much time on his models as you have... what if just isnt as good as you but spends as much time on it as you?

If it looks worse, it doesnt matter if he spent more time on it.  Its the end that matters.  Just because a kid tried to run the race and came in last doesnt mean he should still get the blue ribbon.  Thats for the guy who came in first.  Liberal thinking like this is repulsive, "well he did his best, so even though he did poorly he deserves recognition" just dilutes a competition in meaningless frivolity.

If you cant see the validity in that then i will be out-side waiting for you to kick the crap outta me...or pass out from exhaustion trying to kick the crap outta me.

I'm going to assume you're kidding.  Just for the record, my posts may sound heated to some, but I always am smiling when I write them, ultimately it's all (the keyboard combat in the forum) pretty fun.  I never expect everyone, or even anyone to agree with me. 

You are kidding right? (Our Moms will be upset when they have to bail us out. Or your's and Xtapl's, or whoever that comment was for.)

April 15. You need to sighn up ASAP cause there are only 50 slots and they will not open more. It's $15.

I just called the sponsoring store (Gamer's Haven in the Springs) and the AFA RTT sign up list isn't up yet. Rob said he'll announce it when they put it up.

Darkenss Writes:

I feel that your list can't handle when you consider it all powerful and yet you only won your first game do to your opponents enhaced warrior squad giving up its points for free.

I don't think my list is all powerful.  In fact I think a techmarine is a pretty bad choicem but I played it for fun, actually.  My original list was 6 dreadnoughts.

I also wanted to comment on the enhanced warriors in the first game.  It was true I won it because my opponent rolled a 6, but that was only half of it, there was another reason.  He took his whole army, including that squad, and turtled behind rhinos the whole game.  Even though it was going to count as destroyed he didn't attack with it, I have no idea why, but it cost him the game.  He should have attacked anything, even an ultimate failure with a wipeout of that unit couldn't have been any worse because the VPs were already mine, it really suprised me during the game.

Just so you know, and it may give you reason why your soft scores were low, you have a reputation of being an poor sport and dinging your opponents when you lose. Karma? Just Deserts? I don't know. I haven't played you, and I don't prejudge.

I don't think I ever even met you before.  That's a pretty tough statement to make for someone you have never played.  I realize you may be upset with me writing "went home with my trophy" or that "LATD was mediocre" but none of that reguarded character, only what I saw firsthand.  I have a reputation?  At least play me once, and then say that.

Relic_OMO writes:

A player comes here and complains angrily that because of sore losers, whiners and bad sports, somebody else went home with 'his' trophy?

Meaning what? It's Ironic I came to Dakka and complained because Dakka is populated with sore loosers, whiners and bad sports?  Is that what you mean? If so I completely disagree, I like the Dakka community very much!

Among my people, we call that irony.

Who are your people, are you from New York or in a gang or something?

Actually D, he doesn't have to play you to know you have a reputation. And honestly, I've heard the same thing as well. I'm not saying it's true. Just that it's there.

I wasn't even at the tourney, and I heard grumblings about your army selection down in the Springs weeks later. I'm not saying I agree with quiblings about army selection. Just that they were voiced.

And in case you're wondering, you and I have met. Although I doubt you'd remember it cause it was half-a-dozen years ago and we didn't actually play a game, just chatted things up. I think you were playing airbrushed Eldar at the time. From memory you were polite, confident, instructive, and a tough competitor. All fine qualities in an opponent.

@augustus
i didnt mean "toy soldiers" as a insult on integrety on this fine hobby, but as a way to shrug it off...the system is flawed, what ever. sportsmanship is the only thing i base scores on. -your army is painted and flocked- thats all that matters...assuming you are a cool guy to play against. as long as your a good sportsman ill max you...as a political ploy to get max scores of my own! if for nothing else

Love ken

Cool, agreed.

Xtapl said:

Nah. I gave up whining weeks ago. Now, I've decided I'm going for straight to-the-guy's-face mockery.

"You brought *that*? Jeezus, you're a gimp. Maybe you could learn to play the game without your crutches, then come back and talk to the big boys, okay? I'm just letting you know now that I'm going to place higher than you, and I'm going to do it without your Siren Prince. What a fcking baby. Can't win a game without your precious Siren Prince, can you? You sissy little girl."

I tried it out last weekend. Felt great. Mocked this guy's 5-man las/plas army into the dirt, then stomped all over it with my Dark Eldar army. It was awesome.

I can completely respect that. I'd think it was the height of comedy if you ridiculed someone's list before and during the game and then beat the snot out of them. I'd hope that after the game you'd pat the guy on the back and shake his hand though. Holding a grudge should be reserved for something more important than an army list. But I still like your style.

I too have been on the receiving end of that sort of smacktalk. But with only a couple notable exceptions, I repeatedly make the person eat their words. So what would you have said if the las/plas army had tabled you? Would it have been sour grapes or "good show"?

I'm spoiled out here. Pretty much everyone knows everyone at most tournaments, and comp is generally out the window, so we all just play, have fun, and laugh our butts off no matter how things turn out. My sentiment of "shut up and play" has caught on around here I think. We smack talk just as much or more than anywhere I know of, but nobody ever gets worked up about an army list.

Part of that I'm sure is that people tend to announce when they're bringing some sort of cheeseball list, and people have a chance to adjust. And that, I think, is the most important thing, to make sure everyone's expectation is the same. Or if you can't have that, at least that no one is suprised.

Augustus, getting worked up about not getting the trophy is silly. If you're really there for the trophy, tone your list down, paint the best army possible, and swallow for all your opponents. Otherwise, just play, have fun, and let the chips fall where they may.

Complaining that you should have gotten the trophy:

a....is incorrect. The scoring system says you don't.

b....makes you a sore loser.

Maybe it's because I've won so many trophies I don't even keep them anymore, but they matter not one iota to me. And if you share my "shut up and play" attitude, they shouldn't matter to you. It's just a little lump of plastic, and no one in the real world is going to be impressed.

But anyway, post some pics. I want to see those speeders.

Mauleed wrote:

I too have been on the receiving end of that sort of smacktalk. But with only a couple notable exceptions, I repeatedly make the person eat their words. So what would you have said if the las/plas army had tabled you? Would it have been sour grapes or "good show"?

Probably a bit of both. But either way, I'm in the driver's seat: if I beat him, then it just proves that even a cheesed out army can't beat solid tactics. If I lose, everyone knows the guy's army was trash, so what did they expect? A bit childish, I know, but then again, so is showing up with half the trash people show up with.

Fortunately, I can count the number of games my DE have lost in the last two years on my hands. With fingers left over. So it rarely comes to having to eat that humble pie, which tastes so "delightful..."

Part of that I'm sure is that people tend to announce when they're bringing some sort of cheeseball list, and people have a chance to adjust. And that, I think, is the most important thing, to make sure everyone's expectation is the same. Or if you can't have that, at least that no one is suprised.

On that, we are fully agreed. People think I have a problem with cheeseball lists. I really don't. What I have a problem with is when I show up with the expectation that I am going to be playing with reasonable adults and end up playing against an adult-sized child with a fourteen-year-old's raging testosterone and an army a trained chimpanzee could win with. If I'm warned in advance that's going to be the environment, then at least I can mentally adjust.

(And for the record, no, I do not (and should not) expect every tournament to be full of the latter.)

Augustus wrote:
Meaning what? It's Ironic I came to Dakka and complained because Dakka is populated with sore loosers, whiners and bad sports?

No. It's ironic that you're calling other people sore losers, whiners, and bad sports at the same time you are sour grapesing about someone else having "your" trophy...

And twice as ironic that you're saying Dakka is populated by sore losers, whiners, and bad sports at the same time you are being so ironic on the Dakka forums. It's like an ironic vortex that we're all going to be sucked into because the gravity of such compounded irony is like a black hole...  

Among my people, we call that irony.
Who are your people, are you from New York or in a gang or something?

Don't be silly. New Yorkers don't understand irony.

Part of that I'm sure is that people tend to announce when they're bringing some sort of cheeseball list, and people have a chance to adjust. And that, I think, is the most important thing, to make sure everyone's expectation is the same. Or if you can't have that, at least that no one is suprised.

On that, we are fully agreed. People think I have a problem with cheeseball lists. I really don't. What I have a problem with is when I show up with the expectation that I am going to be playing with reasonable adults and end up playing against an adult-sized child with a fourteen-year-old's raging testosterone and an army a trained chimpanzee could win with. If I'm warned in advance that's going to be the environment, then at least I can mentally adjust.

Well, if you're beating them, it must not be an army a trained chimp could win with. (since of course you're implying they are in fact the trained chimps)

And of course, it's hard to have pity on you if you when you keep assuming the default comp "setting" is yours. Was there a flyer saying "keep the cheeseball lists at home?

@Augustus
I have one last thing to say. Tulio Wolford, who tied me for overall and won second best sportsman, is the one who got cheated out of this tournament. Not you, or any one else who went 3-0. He won all three games, tied me in points, but forgot to send his army list in ahead of time to get the bonus. Of all the soft scores and what not that won me the tournamen, it was actually him not getting the one stupid bonus point that had no purpose.

About the bad sport crack, it was more of a retalitory attack than anything, but I was warned by a lot of gamers in the Springs area about it. Like I said, I don't know if its true, but there are those who think it is.

Dave

Mauleed wrote:
And of course, it's hard to have pity on you if you when you keep assuming the default comp "setting" is yours. Was there a flyer saying "keep the cheeseball lists at home?

I don't need pity. I stopped allowing the other guy to dictate my level of fun a long time ago. We can only hope that self-policing and public ridicule will eventually rid us of the cheesemongers. I would like to believe we don't live in a society where we actually have to hand out flyers asking people, "Please don't be a dick," as though being a dick were the natural order of things.  

And the default comp "setting" *is* mine, although experience tells me that trying to convince you otherwise is simply an exercise in banging my head against the wall of your utter myopia, so I'll skip it.

The default setting in your area may or may not be yours, but it seems rather short sighted to think it's that everywhere.

 

Speaking of comp...

Since you lived in LA for a while (did you ever beat Carl and his Dark Angel army?) and then moved to the Denver area, do you notice a difference in comp?

I think that comp is largely a regoinal thing. Some areas just have a bring a "as hard as you can make it' army ideal, and others are more sporting. IMO LA is a rather comp friendly area (along with Sacramento) but you have to bring your tough guy list to San Diego.

Since you lived in LA for a while (did you ever beat Carl and his Dark Angel army?) and then moved to the Denver area, do you notice a difference in comp?

Unfortunately, I only had the pleasure of playing Carl once, and I lost on literally the last die roll of the game. Make the die roll, save 150 points and the draw. Lose the die roll, give up points for the entire squad and lose the game. Guess which way that went?

Even Carl's list isn't as dirty as some of the things I've seen out here.

Yes, I saw a marked difference in comp from LA to here. In the LA/Westminster/Orange area, there is a culture of seeing who is the best player on the table, not on your computer in front of army builder. Lists in LA tended to be more reasonable, and games almost always went a full six turns with both players actively involved. Out here, I've seen many games that were over on turn three. Sometimes even turn two. Then the other guy is just killing time until the match is over.

I would agree that comp is largely regional. I never played in the San Diego tournaments, but I know that all over LA, Riverside, Orange, and at the Bunker, you'd get laughed out of the building for lists I regularly see in Colorado.

I don't get your grief with 6 man las/plas squads?

First of all, shouldn't you be happy whenever you see an opponent playing 6 man las/plas? Those are easy targets for your assaulters. And that's the fatal flaw of those types of squads, they maximize shooting at the cost of movement and resiliency. They're not cheesey, nor a 'sissy' way to play - they're just a tactical choice that can cost you the game many times against a good player.

Second, so if 6 man las/plas isn't OK with you, what is? 8 man? 10 man? Notice how arbirtrary we're getting?

Finally, look at your own list. As a Dark Eldar player I know that thing is really min/maxed out. Hell, 6 man las/plas isn't even minimum size, yet you've got two min DE warrior squads with 2 Dark Lances in your army. You're just as guilty as any player of 6 man las/plas. You've played DE long enough to know how to squeaze every ounce of efficeincy out of them. You may mask it behind a facade of variety, but do you ever take Scourges? Mandrakes? Hellions? I know I don't cause they suck, and I bet you don't either.

Good Luck with using ridicule as a way to show how much of a superior gamer you are. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. It's just not my cup of tea.

I don't get your grief with 6 man las/plas squads?

Crutch.

First of all, shouldn't you be happy whenever you see an opponent playing 6 man las/plas?

When I'm playing my Dark Eldar? Absoultely.

They're not cheesey, nor a 'sissy' way to play - they're just a tactical choice that can cost you the game many times against a good player.

Well, opinions and arseholes, you know? Everyone's got one.

Second, so if 6 man las/plas isn't OK with you, what is? 8 man? 10 man? Notice how arbirtrary we're getting?

Um...not arbitrary at all? It depends on how many squads you're fielding. If you're fielding three Tac Squads, they should all be full. If you're fielding six Tac Squads, 2-3 could be at 5-6. It's not arbitrary at all. Taking an army full of minimum-sized squads is a bullsht way of playing. Period.

Finally, look at your own list. As a Dark Eldar player I know that thing is really min/maxed out.

Now *THAT'S* funny...

you've got two min DE warrior squads with 2 Dark Lances in your army

Yes, balanced with two maximum-sized point sink Raider squads and a maximum-sized point sink Wych squad in a flying cardboard box. *VERY* min/maxed...

You may mask it behind a facade of variety, but do you ever take Scourges? Mandrakes? Hellions? I know I don't cause they suck, and I bet you don't either.

I don't take Scourges because I prefer Ravagers. I take Mandrakes when I'm playing vs. T3 opponents, and I take Hellions on occasion because I think the models pretty much rule. I'm thinking more and more about swapping out a couple of bike squads for Hellion squads when I use the WWP. So, sorry. We're not the same player, you and I.

Good Luck with using ridicule as a way to show how much of a superior gamer you are. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. It's just not my cup of tea.

And wasting my time against 9-obliterator 3-Basilisk Iron Warriors isn't mine. I'd rather laugh that sht out of the building and never have to play against it again than take an "I'm okay, you're okay, let's all hold hands and it's perfectly fine that you're being a dick" approach to the game.

Xtapl,

I guess I don't understand where you're coming from and possibly never will. I'm a fun guy to play. I have gone to tournies and done well in sportsmanship and had a good time both winning and losing. But, in a tournie environment I would never expect an opponent to bring anything less than his best. I want to face the legal list that my opponent feels has the best chance to help him win the tournament. Regardless of whether it is minmaxed or not. I don't understand why anyone would feel any different about that type of environment.

Pick up games, campaign games, etc I would maybe agree with you that I don't think the OTT lists should be seen as that isn't what is expected. But, if you're playing in a tournie I expect that you are playing to win. And part of that is bringing the hardest list that you can. I guess I feel that the ridicule should be reserved for someone who expects me to play a weaker list just to suit his standards. Anyway, thanks for reading.

So how many of you guys are going to Adepticon and which events are you playing in? I am curious to see how you guys match up. Capt K

Rygoth wrote:
I guess I don't understand where you're coming from and possibly never will.

Don't sweat it. You're by far and away not alone in that sentiment, especially here on Dakka. What it boils down to, more and more, is the realization that a great number of people are coming two that what is desperately needed are two separate and distinct styles of tournaments with HARSH punishments/removal for playing against tournament type. Then everyone's happy, everyone goes to the kind of event they want, and we have fewer and fewer of these discussions....

I don't understand why anyone would feel any different about that type of environment.

The same reason why I walk out of the arena during hockey fights. That's not the sport I came to see. At all.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
So how many of you guys are going to Adepticon and which events are you playing in?

Too far. I don't go to events east of the Rocky Mountains.