Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wasn't meaning to imply that there's a peak. I actually think that would be a horrible mindset for anyone to have. I've learned that music isn't a competition either though, and I see that mentality pop up everywhere. I'd also rather not define myself by my limitations but by my potential, because otherwise it's just putting boundaries on for reasons I don't consider important enough to limit myself for. One has to be realistic, but there's no reason most people you couldn't put in a closet for 2 weeks with an instrument and ambition and then have them walk out and playing dream theater (insert other needlessly virtuosic group at your leisure) in that time. This sounds hyperbolic but this is my actual mindset. I have to ask myself, "why can't I do it?" and if I can remove all those obstacles, I can.

Albatross wrote:A year is pretty much feth all, in terms of learning a musical instrument. Unless, of course, you're some sort of prodigious talent. I've been playing for nearly 15 years, and I still feel like I suck.

Learning guitar is a frustrating and unrewarding process. Your fingers will hurt, you'll sound gak - but eventually it will all click into place, though really, you never stop learning.

That makes me feel a lot better, actually. Thanks albatross

I won't say I'm 'horrible', exactly. I enjoy playing the few things I can actually play well, and it's satisfying to know that you're better than you were a couple weeks ago, for sure. I'm not sure if I'll stick with it, since I wouldn't have time for it in the navy, but just learning a couple things makes it worth while, I guess.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I wasn't meaning to imply that there's a peak. I actually think that would be a horrible mindset for anyone to have. I've learned that music isn't a competition either though, and I see that mentality pop up everywhere. I'd also rather not define myself by my limitations but by my potential, because otherwise it's just putting boundaries on for reasons I don't consider important enough to limit myself for. One has to be realistic, but there's no reason most people you couldn't put in a closet for 2 weeks with an instrument and ambition and then have them walk out and playing dream theater (insert other needlessly virtuosic group at your leisure) in that time. This sounds hyperbolic but this is my actual mindset. I have to ask myself, "why can't I do it?" and if I can remove all those obstacles, I can.

I agree with what your saying for the most part...
From the moment I picked up my first Guitar to the time I could play it didn't take very long,and I'm definitly of the " This is an E chord,this is a G chord and this is an A chord...now go start a band" school of music...
My overall point is...it takes time to develop your "skills" and style...and you never really ever stop doing so...I continue to "evolve" as a musician and try to push the boundries of what I already know...not really due to any competitive (other than with myself) reason....nor to ridicule a "new guitar player" by showing off all the things I can do that they can't do yet.(I'd never do that)...but due to the fact that I've always loved playing and enjoy seeing how far I can take it.

It's my personal belief that not everyone is born with the tools to play a musical instrument to a high standard.

That's interesting (actually mean that). Is that a product of experience or more "just what makes sense" to you?

It's a little bit of both, actually. Think about it - not everyone has the same physical and mental potential - we have differing capabilities in terms of hand-eye co-ordination, amongst other things. That said, obviously a person can train themselves to improve in certain areas, but I feel that people will always have biological limitations on what they are able to achieve, limitations that they are not able to overcome.

Albatross wrote:It's a little bit of both, actually. Think about it - not everyone has the same physical and mental potential - we have differing capabilities in terms of hand-eye co-ordination, amongst other things. That said, obviously a person can train themselves to improve in certain areas, but I feel that people will always have biological limitations on what they are able to achieve, limitations that they are not able to overcome.

I very much agree with that. It is all relative to to varying decrees too though of course. There are people who fundamentaly understand music and truly hear music. These are the people who hear a song played live or on the radio and can find the overal note or chord progression on any instrument just by farting around for a few minutes without actually knowing how to play that instrument or without ever even played that instrument before. Then there are those who have been practicing for years and are techinically capable but will never hear that they are playing a riff missing a 16th note beat.
You can train youself physically and most importanlty you can train your ear but you will eventually reach a limitation dependant on your talent. Again that level is relative so there is no reason to get discouraged, you may find your 'brick wall' is at a level above most players

One more thing I touched on before, by far and away, the most, I'll say it again, the MOST important skill a musician needs to develop is their ear. This is one of the most overlooked developmental skills by new players but it is the most important. It is so easy to get caught up in the begining with just learning how to use your new instrument that we forget to improve our natural instrument. Granted as you play more this will develop gradually on its own but without training your ear, you will hit your peak at lot sooner. Learn to hear your notes and your rythm. You will want to get to a level where you hear a song on the radio and say, hey that an Am, G, C, D progression or be able to strum out a song in the right metrome timing. In honestly, once you have that, the fingers will find where to go.
This is all a gradual process of course but the first time you hear a simple chord progression played and know it, pick up the guitar and play along, it will be an immensily rewarding experience.

Lastly, remember to have fun!

I'm still having difficulty fathoming that a person couldn't play an instrument past a certain a point, but I guess it makes sense. The actual physical acts seem fairly simple, barring something like crippling arthritis or shaking hands The mental aspect I can understand someone having issues with, but it's really just a matter of fine-tuning one's sense and if they don't do it with music they'll do it with something. Perhaps I just give people too much credit as a whole. For the record, I used to be frustratingly optimistic

haha, dont get me wrong, you can always improve. specifically i'm not talking about any physical issues in regards to how fast you can play or whether you can hold the chords but i am referrring to limitations to talent, there is just certain levels that most people cant reach due to a corresponding level of natural talent. Playing music is much much more than just learning the intricacies of a specific instrument and mastering that particular instrument. ones natural ability to 'see' the music. Think the way albert einstien or stephen hawking see physics or the unvierse), one can learn the math but that doesnt mean any physicist who learns the math will be at the same level of einstien.

Terje-Tubby wrote:My dad owns a Telecaster. It`s a real solid guitar, easy to use and with good sound. Pretty expensive though.
ESP can offer some pretty cheap guitars with a nice metal sound. How about this one?

As for playing, I would start with some Nirvana and Black Sabbath, as both bands have easy and fun songs to play. The same goes for Beatles, if you like pop.
Good luck with your playing!

Dude, that guitar is like 1500€... that's NOT cheap xDD American Standard Telecasters are cheaper than ESPs. Maybe you wanted to link some LTD guitar...

I have a Jackson DK2M (made in Japan) and I'm pretty happy with it. I discovered that I'm not a fan of Floyd Rose trems with this guitar, but it's still pretty good.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I agree with those who said to avoid the beginner packs. That ain't guitars.

thedude wrote:haha, dont get me wrong, you can always improve. specifically i'm not talking about any physical issues in regards to how fast you can play or whether you can hold the chords but i am referrring to limitations to talent, there is just certain levels that most people cant reach due to a corresponding level of natural talent. Playing music is much much more than just learning the intricacies of a specific instrument and mastering that particular instrument. ones natural ability to 'see' the music. Think the way albert einstien or stephen hawking see physics or the unvierse), one can learn the math but that doesnt mean any physicist who learns the math will be at the same level of einstien.

I'm not sure that a math comparison works completely here. You don't see an autistic three year old walk up to a sheet of paper and start automatically doing complex equations, but once a blue moon one can mimic whatever music they hear (just implying that math is learned, even if someone picks it up quickly). I totally get what you mean about creative mindset though. Of the three types of creative thinking (auditory, visual and kinesthetic) I'm very much a kinesthetic. When I hear a song I see an open plane and each element of the music, be it the individual notes, the tempo, the "feel," the contrast, all come into play and affect where everything sits and how it moves. The only somewhat similar comparison I can make in real life would be a DDR machine, where little pieces move along the screen and all go together, but that only goes so far as a descriptor This whole little chit-chat gives me a few things to mull over for sure, but my first question when someone says "they can't" will still always be "why not" and if necessary "what's stopping you from changing that?"

Sorry about not posting that video ever; the only time I have to do it is when everyone else in the house goes to bed, and I can't do it then for obvious reasons

thedude wrote:haha, dont get me wrong, you can always improve. specifically i'm not talking about any physical issues in regards to how fast you can play or whether you can hold the chords but i am referrring to limitations to talent, there is just certain levels that most people cant reach due to a corresponding level of natural talent. Playing music is much much more than just learning the intricacies of a specific instrument and mastering that particular instrument. ones natural ability to 'see' the music. Think the way albert einstien or stephen hawking see physics or the unvierse), one can learn the math but that doesnt mean any physicist who learns the math will be at the same level of einstien.

That is true. I got good unusually fast, and I have an amazing ability at understanding and playing music. Its just the natural talent I possess. Either that, or I made a deal with the devil. Now THAT would be cool.

There's a kid in one of my uni classes (I study music) who is severely dyslexic (he has a 'helper'), but who has perfect pitch, and has done all his life. He can literally hear a note and go 'yeah, that's an Eb...'. He does it with chords too. That's actually not that hard, because you can train yourself to recognise majors, minors, augmenteds etc. It's identifying the tonic note with no reference thats tricky.

But to have the innate ability to recognise and identify pitch? That's crazy. It also suggests that tonal competence is innate in human beings to some degree. It's possible to be 'tone-deaf'. Such people would struggle to attain any level of competence at any non-percussion instrument.

I knew a local singing group of a few guys who claimed to have and hear perfect pitch. They could sure enough identify anything and out of the blue and you could get them to hit specific notes (verified by tuner, pitch pipe, etc.). It was creepy.

Yeah, it's pretty freaky alright. You can train yourself to have good relative pitch, for example I can tune a guitar without using a tuner and it'll be pretty much spot-on. That's because I recognise an 'A' really well for some reason, so I can tune everything in relative to that...

That's a far fething cry from being able to hear any note on the chromatic scale and instantly 'know' what note it is...